https://en.wikipedia.org/w/api.php?action=feedcontributions&feedformat=atom&user=Battlefront228&useskin=vector&useskin=vector Wikipedia - User contributions [en] 2024-10-22T23:19:28Z User contributions MediaWiki 1.43.0-wmf.27 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=D._J._Moore&diff=1144133923 D. J. Moore 2023-03-12T00:55:18Z <p>Battlefront228: The previous language made it seem that the Bears were giving Carolina additional draft picks.</p> <hr /> <div>{{pp-vandalism|small=yes}}<br /> &lt;noinclude&gt;{{User:RMCD bot/subject notice|1=D. J. Moore|2=Talk:D. J. Moore (wide receiver)#Requested move 11 March 2023}}<br /> &lt;/noinclude&gt;{{pp-protected|small=yes}}<br /> {{current sports transaction|trans=trade|sport=American football}}<br /> {{Short description|American football player (born 1997)}}<br /> {{Use mdy dates|date=March 2023}}<br /> {{Infobox NFL biography<br /> | name = D. J. Moore<br /> | image = DJ Moore WFT-Panthers NOV2021 (cropped).jpg<br /> | image_size = <br /> | alt = <br /> | caption = Moore with the [[Carolina Panthers]] in 2021<br /> | current_team = &lt;!--PLEASE DO NOT CHANGE THIS UNTIL EITHER CHICAGO OR CAROLINA ANNOUNCE THE TRADE THEMSELVES--&gt;Carolina Panthers&lt;!--PLEASE DO NOT CHANGE THIS UNTIL EITHER CHICAGO OR CAROLINA ANNOUNCE THE TRADE THEMSELVES--&gt;<br /> | number = 2<br /> | position = [[Wide receiver]]<br /> | birth_date = {{birth date and age|1997|4|14}}<br /> | birth_place = [[Philadelphia, Pennsylvania]], U.S.<br /> | death_date = <br /> | death_place = <br /> | height_ft = 6<br /> | height_in = 0<br /> | weight_lb = 210<br /> | high_school = [[Imhotep Institute Charter High School|Imhotep Institute Charter]] ([[Pennsylvania|PA]]) <br /> | college = [[Maryland Terrapins football|Maryland]] (2015–2017)<br /> | draftyear = 2018<br /> | draftround = 1<br /> | draftpick = 24<br /> | pastteams =<br /> &lt;!--PLEASE DO NOT CHANGE THIS UNTIL EITHER CHICAGO OR CAROLINA ANNOUNCE THE TRADE THEMSELVES--&gt;* [[Carolina Panthers]] ({{NFL Year|2018}}–present)&lt;!--PLEASE DO NOT CHANGE THIS UNTIL EITHER CHICAGO OR CAROLINA ANNOUNCE THE TRADE THEMSELVES--&gt;<br /> | status = Active<br /> |highlights=<br /> * [[PFWA All-Rookie Team]] ([[PFWA All-Rookie Team#2018|2018]])<br /> * [[Big Ten Conference football individual honors#Richter–Howard Receiver of the Year|Richter–Howard Receiver of the Year]] (2017)<br /> *First-team All-Big Ten ([[2017 Big Ten Conference football season#All-Conference Teams|2017]])<br /> | statleague = NFL<br /> | statseason = 2022<br /> | statweek = <br /> | statlabel1 = [[Reception (American football)|Receptions]]<br /> | statvalue1 = 364<br /> | statlabel2 = [[Receiving yards]]<br /> | statvalue2 = 5,201<br /> | statlabel3 = [[Touchdown|Receiving touchdowns]]<br /> | statvalue3 = 21<br /> | statlabel4 = [[Rushing yards]]<br /> | statvalue4 = 335<br /> | statlabel5 = [[Touchdown|Rushing touchdowns]]<br /> | statvalue5 =<br /> | nfl = d-j-moore<br /> |pfr=MoorD.00<br /> }}<br /> <br /> '''Denniston Oliver''' &quot;'''D. J.'''&quot; '''Moore Jr.''' (born April 14, 1997) is an [[American football]] [[wide receiver]] for the &lt;!--PLEASE DO NOT CHANGE THIS UNTIL EITHER CHICAGO OR CAROLINA ANNOUNCE THE TRADE THEMSELVES--&gt;[[Carolina Panthers]]&lt;!--PLEASE DO NOT CHANGE THIS UNTIL EITHER CHICAGO OR CAROLINA ANNOUNCE THE TRADE THEMSELVES--&gt; of the [[National Football League]] (NFL). He played [[college football]] at [[Maryland Terrapins football|Maryland]] and was drafted by the Panthers in the first round of the [[2018 NFL Draft]].<br /> <br /> ==Early years==<br /> Moore attended [[Imhotep Institute Charter High School]] in [[Philadelphia, Pennsylvania]], where he played [[high school football]] for [[Imhotep Charter]].&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |last=Gallen |first=Daniel |date=January 5, 2019 |title=How Philadelphia's DJ Moore – a 'freak athlete' like Saquon Barkley – became the Big Ten's top receiver at Maryland |url=https://www.pennlive.com/pennstatefootball/index.ssf/2017/11/how_philadelphias_dj_moore_a_f.html |access-date=October 4, 2018 |website=PennLive.com |language=en-US |archive-date=October 5, 2018 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20181005030829/https://www.pennlive.com/pennstatefootball/index.ssf/2017/11/how_philadelphias_dj_moore_a_f.html |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; He committed to the [[University of Maryland, College Park]] to play college football.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |last=Anderson |first=Chris |date=July 2, 2014 |title=DJ Moore Commits to Maryland |url=https://247sports.com/college/maryland/Article/DJ-Moore-Commits-to-Maryland-29444578/ |access-date=October 4, 2018 |website=247sports.com |archive-date=March 11, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230311042424/https://247sports.com/college/maryland/Article/DJ-Moore-Commits-to-Maryland-29444578/ |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt;<br /> <br /> ==College career==<br /> [[File:D.J. Moore.jpg|thumb|left|Moore during his time at Maryland, 2015]]<br /> Moore played [[college football]] for the [[Maryland Terrapins football|Maryland Terrapins]] from 2015 to 2017 under head coaches [[Randy Edsall]], [[Mike Locksley]], and [[D. J. Durkin]].&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |title=D.J. Moore College Stats |url=https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/players/dj-moore-3.html |access-date=October 4, 2018 |website=College Football at Sports-Reference.com |language=en |archive-date=October 5, 2018 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20181005030725/https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/players/dj-moore-3.html |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; <br /> <br /> As a freshman, Moore started 10 of Maryland's 12 games, recording 25 receptions for 357 yards and three touchdowns.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |last=Gallen, Daniel |date=November 24, 2015 |title=Terps' freshman WR D.J. Moore emerges as spark on offense |url=http://www.carrollcountytimes.com/sports/colleges/maryland/ph-cc-sp-terps-dj-moore-1125-20151124-story.html |access-date=March 20, 2018 |website=Carroll County Times |archive-date=January 3, 2018 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20180103193418/http://www.carrollcountytimes.com/sports/colleges/maryland/ph-cc-sp-terps-dj-moore-1125-20151124-story.html |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; As a sophomore, he started all 13 games and had 41 receptions for 637 yards and six touchdowns. As a junior, he started all 12 games and set a school record with 80 receptions for 1,033 yards and eight touchdowns.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |last=Gallen, Daniel |date=December 19, 2017 |title=Maryland WR DJ Moore, a Philadelphia native and former Imhotep star, declares for the NFL draft |url=http://www.pennlive.com/pennstatefootball/index.ssf/2017/12/maryland_wr_dj_moore_a_philade.html |access-date=March 20, 2018 |website=pennlive |archive-date=March 23, 2018 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20180323204339/http://www.pennlive.com/pennstatefootball/index.ssf/2017/12/maryland_wr_dj_moore_a_philade.html |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |last=Juliano, Joe |date=November 23, 2017 |title=Imhotep's D.J. Moore has adapted to become top receiver for Maryland |url=http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/colleges/penn_state/dj-moore-imhotep-penn-state-football-wide-receiver-20171123.html |access-date=March 20, 2018 |website=The Philadelphia Inquirer |archive-date=January 26, 2018 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20180126104015/http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/colleges/penn_state/dj-moore-imhotep-penn-state-football-wide-receiver-20171123.html |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; After his junior season, Moore was named to the First-team All-[[Big Ten Conference]], and was the Big Ten Receiver of the Year.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |title=2017 Big Ten Individual Award Winners |url=http://grfx.cstv.com/photos/schools/big10/sports/m-footbl/auto_pdf/2017-18/misc_non_event/17fbawards.pdf |url-status=dead |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20171201040958/http://grfx.cstv.com/photos/schools/big10/sports/m-footbl/auto_pdf/2017-18/misc_non_event/17fbawards.pdf |archive-date=December 1, 2017 |access-date=November 19, 2022 |website=CSTV.com}}&lt;/ref&gt; <br /> <br /> Following his junior season, Moore made the decision to enter the [[2018 NFL Draft]].&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |last=Rittenberg, Adam |date=December 19, 2017 |title=Maryland's D.J. Moore decides to enter NFL draft |url=http://www.espn.com/nfl/draft2018/story/_/id/21816326/maryland-terrapins-wr-dj-moore-entering-nfl-draft |access-date=March 20, 2018 |website=ESPN.com |archive-date=February 13, 2018 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20180213024143/http://www.espn.com/nfl/draft2018/story/_/id/21816326/maryland-terrapins-wr-dj-moore-entering-nfl-draft |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |last=Stubbs, Roman |date=December 19, 2017 |title=DJ Moore to skip senior season at Maryland for NFL draft |url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/terrapins-insider/wp/2017/12/19/d-j-moore-to-skip-senior-season-at-maryland-for-nfl-draft/ |access-date=April 17, 2018 |website=The Washington Post |archive-date=April 15, 2018 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20180415014619/https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/terrapins-insider/wp/2017/12/19/d-j-moore-to-skip-senior-season-at-maryland-for-nfl-draft/ |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt;<br /> <br /> ===Collegiate statistics===<br /> {| class=&quot;wikitable&quot; style=&quot;text-align:center;&quot;<br /> |-<br /> ! colspan=&quot;15&quot; style=&quot;{{CollegePrimaryStyle|Maryland Terrapins}}&quot;| Maryland Terrapins<br /> |-<br /> ! rowspan=&quot;2&quot;| Season<br /> ! colspan=&quot;2&quot;| Games<br /> ! colspan=&quot;4&quot;| Receiving<br /> ! colspan=&quot;4&quot;| Rushing<br /> |-<br /> ! GP !! GS !! Rec !! Yds !! Avg !! TD !! Att !! Yds !! Avg !! TD<br /> |-<br /> ! [[2015 Maryland Terrapins football season|2015]]<br /> | 12 || 10 || 25 || 357 || 14.3 || 3 || 1 || 9 || 9.0 || 0<br /> |-<br /> ! [[2016 Maryland Terrapins football season|2016]]<br /> | '''13''' || '''13''' || 41 || 637 || '''15.5''' || 6 || '''11''' || 55 || 5.0 || 0<br /> |-<br /> ! [[2017 Maryland Terrapins football season|2017]]<br /> | 12 || 12 || '''80''' || '''1,033''' || 12.9 || '''8''' || 5 || '''61''' || '''12.2''' || '''1'''<br /> |-<br /> ! [https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/players/dj-moore-3.html Career] !! 37 !! 35 !! 146 !! 2,027 !! 13.9 !! 17 !! 17 !! 125 !! 7.4 !! 1<br /> |}<br /> <br /> ==Professional career==<br /> Moore was invited to the 2018 NFL combine, where he led receivers in the broad jump, and recorded the second best vertical jump. He also ran a 4.42 second 40-yard dash.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |last=Katz, Jordan |date=March 4, 2018 |title=Former Terp DJ Moore had a great day at the NFL Combine. |url=http://www.dbknews.com/2018/03/04/dj-moore-nfl-draft-wide-receiver-combine-maryland-football/ |access-date=March 20, 2018 |website=The Diamondback |archive-date=March 20, 2018 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20180320230735/http://www.dbknews.com/2018/03/04/dj-moore-nfl-draft-wide-receiver-combine-maryland-football/ |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt;<br /> <br /> {{NFL predraft<br /> | height ft = 6<br /> | height in = 0<br /> | weight = 210<br /> | dash = 4.42<br /> | ten split = 1.54<br /> | twenty split = 2.59<br /> | shuttle = 4.07<br /> | cone drill = 6.95<br /> | vertical = 39½<br /> | broad ft = 11<br /> | broad in = 0<br /> | bench = 15<br /> | wonderlic = <br /> | arm span = 31⅝<br /> | hand span = 9⅝<br /> | note = All values from [[2018 NFL Draft | NFL Draft]]&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |date=March 1, 2018 |title=NFL Draft Prospect Profile – D.J. Moore |url=https://www.nfl.com/prospects/d.j.-moore?id=32462018-0002-5602-31ed-ce270f370fe4 |access-date=March 1, 2018 |website=nfl.com |archive-date=March 8, 2018 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20180308101202/https://www.nfl.com/prospects/d.j.-moore?id=32462018-0002-5602-31ed-ce270f370fe4 |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |title=Maryland WR D.J. Moore : 2018 NFL Draft Scout Player Profile |url=http://www.draftscout.com/ratings/dsprofile.php?pyid=1003116&amp;draftyear=2018&amp;genpos=wr |access-date=May 12, 2018 |website=NFLDraftScout.com |archive-date=May 11, 2018 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20180511113714/http://www.draftscout.com/ratings/dsprofile.php?pyid=1003116&amp;draftyear=2018&amp;genpos=WR |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt;<br /> }}<br /> ===Carolina Panthers ===<br /> Moore was drafted by the [[Carolina Panthers]] in the first round with the 24th overall pick in the [[2018 NFL Draft]].&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |date=April 26, 2018 |title=Panthers draft D.J. Moore in first round |url=http://www.panthers.com/news/article-2/Panthers-draft-DJ-Moore-in-first-round/57fc8267-c8ef-4225-8d15-3f033f68bc6b |url-status=dead |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20180427172612/https://www.panthers.com/news/article-2/Panthers-draft-DJ-Moore-in-first-round/57fc8267-c8ef-4225-8d15-3f033f68bc6b |archive-date=April 27, 2018 |website=Panthers.com}}&lt;/ref&gt; Moore was the first wide receiver drafted. On June 18, 2018, he signed a four-year deal worth $11.2 million featuring a $6.2 million signing bonus.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |last=Patra |first=Kevin |date=June 18, 2018 |title=Panthers ink first-rounder D.J. Moore to rookie deal |url=http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000937639/article/panthers-ink-firstrounder-dj-moore-to-rookie-deal |access-date=June 18, 2018 |website=NFL.com |archive-date=June 19, 2018 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20180619140218/http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000937639/article/panthers-ink-firstrounder-dj-moore-to-rookie-deal |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt;<br /> <br /> ====2018====<br /> [[File:Dj moore 2018.jpg|thumb|left|Moore playing against the [[Washington Redskins]] in 2018]]<br /> Moore made his NFL debut in the Panthers' season opener against the [[2018 Dallas Cowboys season|Dallas Cowboys]]. In the 16–8 victory, he had no targets but did have a three-yard rush to go along with a 15-yard punt return.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |date=September 10, 2018 |title=Panthers' D.J. Moore: Not targeted in debut |url=https://www.cbssports.com/fantasy/football/news/panthers-d-j-moore-not-targeted-in-debut/ |access-date=October 1, 2018 |website=CBSSports.com |language=en |archive-date=October 1, 2018 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20181001220454/https://www.cbssports.com/fantasy/football/news/panthers-d-j-moore-not-targeted-in-debut/ |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; In the following game, a 31–24 loss to the [[2018 Atlanta Falcons season|Atlanta Falcons]], he recorded a 51-yard touchdown reception for his first professional catch.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |last=Newberry |first=Paul |date=September 16, 2018 |title=Panthers' Moore has a day to remember _ both good and bad |url=https://www.apnews.com/a519f62e42c64d2892d77623ddddcabf |access-date=October 4, 2018 |website=AP News |language=en-US |archive-date=October 4, 2018 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20181004225929/https://www.apnews.com/a519f62e42c64d2892d77623ddddcabf |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; In a Week 11 loss to the [[2018 Detroit Lions season|Detroit Lions]], Moore had a breakout game with seven receptions for 157 yards and a touchdown.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |last=Weaver |first=Tim |date=November 18, 2018 |title=Winners and losers for the Panthers' one-point loss to Lions |url=https://pantherswire.usatoday.com/2018/11/18/winners-and-losers-for-the-panthers-one-point-loss-to-lions/ |access-date=December 3, 2018 |website=USA Today |language=en-US |archive-date=December 4, 2018 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20181204010008/https://pantherswire.usatoday.com/2018/11/18/winners-and-losers-for-the-panthers-one-point-loss-to-lions/ |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; Overall, he finished his rookie season with 55 receptions for 788 yards and two touchdowns.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |title=D.J. Moore 2018 Game Log |url=https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/MoorD.00.htm |access-date=March 1, 2019 |website=Pro-Football-Reference.com |language=en |archive-date=March 2, 2019 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20190302051825/https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/MoorD.00.htm |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; He was named to the [[PFWA All-Rookie Team]], becoming the second Panthers receiver to claim this award, joining [[Rae Carruth]] in 1997.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |last=Brandt |first=Gil |date=January 23, 2019 |title=Baker Mayfield, Saquon Barkley lead 2018 NFL All-Rookie Team |url=http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000001012939/article/baker-mayfield-saquon-barkley-lead-2018-nfl-allrookie-team |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20190126005944/http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000001012939/article/baker-mayfield-saquon-barkley-lead-2018-nfl-allrookie-team |archive-date=January 26, 2019 |access-date=December 20, 2019 |website=NFL.com |language=en}}&lt;/ref&gt;<br /> <br /> ====2019====<br /> [[File:D. J. Moore 2019.jpg|thumb|200px|Moore in 2019]]<br /> In Week 3 against the [[2019 Arizona Cardinals|Arizona Cardinals]], Moore caught one pass for a 52-yard touchdown in the 38–20 win. &lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |date=September 22, 2019 |title=Allen throws 4 TDs, Panthers beat Cardinals 38–20 |url=https://www.espn.com/nfl/recap?gameId=401127962 |access-date=September 22, 2019 |website=ESPN.com |agency=Associated Press |archive-date=December 13, 2019 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20191213052457/https://www.espn.com/nfl/recap?gameId=401127962 |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; In Week 10 against the [[2019 Green Bay Packers|Green Bay Packers]], Moore caught nine passes for 120 yards in the 24–16 loss.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |date=November 10, 2019 |title=Packers' Jones scores 3 TDs in 24–16 win over Carolina |url=https://www.espn.com/nfl/recap?gameId=401127944 |access-date=November 10, 2019 |website=ESPN.com |agency=Associated Press |archive-date=August 9, 2020 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20200809000144/https://www.espn.com/nfl/recap?gameId=401127944 |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; During Week 12 against the [[2019 New Orleans Saints|New Orleans Saints]], Moore finished with six catches for 126 receiving yards and two receiving touchdowns as the Panthers lost 31–34.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |date=November 24, 2019 |title=Lutz's kick lifts Saints to dramatic 34–31 win over Panthers |url=https://www.espn.com/nfl/recap?gameId=401127922 |access-date=November 24, 2019 |website=ESPN.com |agency=Associated Press |archive-date=February 3, 2022 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20220203114038/https://www.espn.com/nfl/recap?gameId=401127922 |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; Overall, in the 2019 season, Moore finished with 87 receptions for 1,175 receiving yards and four receiving touchdowns.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |title=D.J. Moore 2019 Game Log |url=https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/MoorD.00/gamelog/2019/ |access-date=January 30, 2020 |website=Pro-Football-Reference.com |language=en |archive-date=March 11, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230311042429/https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/MoorD.00/gamelog/2019/ |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt;<br /> <br /> ====2020====<br /> In Week 2, Moore recorded eight receptions for 120 receiving yards in a 17–31 loss to the [[2020 Tampa Bay Buccaneers season|Tampa Bay Buccaneers]].&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |title=Carolina Panthers at Tampa Bay Buccaneers – September 20th, 2020 |url=https://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/202009200tam.htm |access-date=September 23, 2020 |website=Pro-Football-Reference.com |language=en |archive-date=October 1, 2020 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20201001183712/https://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/202009200tam.htm |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; In Week 5 against the [[2020 Atlanta Falcons season|Atlanta Falcons]], Moore recorded four catches for 93 yards, including a 57-yard touchdown reception, during the 23–16 win.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |title=Carolina Panthers at Atlanta Falcons – October 11th, 2020 |url=https://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/202010110atl.htm |access-date=October 11, 2020 |website=Pro-Football-Reference.com |language=en |archive-date=October 19, 2020 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20201019101752/https://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/202010110atl.htm |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; In Week 7, he had four receptions for 93 receiving yards and two receiving touchdowns in the 27–24 loss to the [[2020 New Orleans Saints season|New Orleans Saints]].&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |title=Carolina Panthers at New Orleans Saints – October 25th, 2020 |url=https://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/202010250nor.htm |access-date=October 29, 2020 |website=Pro-Football-Reference.com |language=en |archive-date=November 1, 2020 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20201101083552/https://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/202010250nor.htm |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; In Week 11 against the [[2020 Detroit Lions season|Detroit Lions]], Moore recorded seven catches for 127 yards during the 20–0 win.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |title=Detroit Lions at Carolina Panthers - November 22nd, 2020 |url=https://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/202011220car.htm |access-date=November 28, 2020 |website=Pro-Football-Reference.com |language=en |archive-date=November 15, 2020 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20201115122030/https://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/202011220car.htm |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; He was placed on the reserve/[[COVID-19]] list by the Panthers on December 7, 2020,&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite news |last=Gantt, Darin |date=December 7, 2020 |title=Panthers place eight players on reserve/COVID list |work=Panthers.com |url=https://www.panthers.com/news/panthers-place-eight-players-on-reserve-covid-list |access-date=January 14, 2021 |archive-date=January 15, 2021 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210115172907/https://www.panthers.com/news/panthers-place-eight-players-on-reserve-covid-list |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; and activated on December 16.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite news |last=Bryan, Will |date=December 16, 2020 |title=DJ Moore activated from reserve/COVID-19 list |work=Panthers.com |url=https://www.panthers.com/news/dj-moore-activated-from-reserve-covid-19-list |access-date=January 14, 2021 |archive-date=January 16, 2021 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210116210835/https://www.panthers.com/news/dj-moore-activated-from-reserve-covid-19-list |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; In Week 15 against the [[2020 Green Bay Packers season|Green Bay Packers]], Moore recorded six catches for 131 yards during the 24–16 loss.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |title=Carolina Panthers at Green Bay Packers - December 19th, 2020 |url=https://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/202012190gnb.htm |access-date=December 20, 2020 |website=Pro-Football-Reference.com |language=en |archive-date=December 16, 2020 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20201216235206/https://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/202012190gnb.htm |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; Moore finished the 2020 season with 66 receptions for 1,193 receiving yards and four receiving touchdowns.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |title=D.J. Moore 2020 Game Log |url=https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/MoorD.00/gamelog/2020/ |access-date=November 19, 2022 |website=Pro-Football-Reference.com |language=en |archive-date=November 24, 2021 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20211124030136/https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/MoorD.00/gamelog/2020/ |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt;<br /> <br /> ====2021====<br /> On April 30, 2021, the Panthers exercised the fifth-year option on Moore's contract.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |last=Gantt |first=Darin |date=April 30, 2021 |title=Panthers pick up options on Sam Darnold, DJ Moore |url=https://www.panthers.com/news/sam-darnold-dj-moore-fifth-year-option-picked-up-carolina |access-date=April 30, 2021 |website=Panthers.com |archive-date=April 30, 2021 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210430130331/https://www.panthers.com/news/sam-darnold-dj-moore-fifth-year-option-picked-up-carolina |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; The option guarantees a salary of $11.116 million for the 2022 season.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |last=Simmons |first=Myles |date=April 29, 2021 |title=Panthers exercise D.J. Moore's fifth-year option |url=https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2021/04/29/panthers-exercise-d-j-moores-fifth-year-option/ |access-date=November 19, 2022 |website=ProFootballTalk |language=en-US |archive-date=October 1, 2021 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20211001170214/https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2021/04/29/panthers-exercise-d-j-moores-fifth-year-option/ |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; In Week 3, against the [[2021 Houston Texans|Houston Texans]], Moore recorded eight receptions for 126 yards in the 24–9 victory.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |title=Carolina Panthers at Houston Texans - September 23rd, 2021 |url=https://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/202109230htx.htm |access-date=November 19, 2022 |website=Pro-Football-Reference.com |language=en |archive-date=November 20, 2022 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20221120163827/https://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/202109230htx.htm |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; In the following game against the [[2021 Dallas Cowboys|Dallas Cowboys]], he recorded eight receptions for 113 yards and two touchdowns in the 36–28 loss.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |title=Carolina Panthers at Dallas Cowboys - October 3rd, 2021 |url=https://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/202110030dal.htm |access-date=November 19, 2022 |website=Pro-Football-Reference.com |language=en |archive-date=November 18, 2022 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20221118085904/https://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/202110030dal.htm |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; Moore finished the 2021 season with 93 receptions for 1,157 receiving yards and four receiving touchdowns.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |title=D.J. Moore 2021 Game Log |url=https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/MoorD.00/gamelog/2021/ |access-date=November 19, 2022 |website=Pro-Football-Reference.com |language=en |archive-date=March 8, 2022 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20220308215621/https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/MoorD.00/gamelog/2021 |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt;<br /> <br /> ====2022====<br /> On March 18, 2022, Moore signed a three-year, $61.9 million contract extension with the Panthers through the 2025 season.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |last=Patra |first=Kevin |date=March 18, 2022 |title=Panthers sign WR D.J. Moore to three-year extension worth $61.9M in new money |url=https://www.nfl.com/news/panthers-sign-wr-d-j-moore-to-three-year-extension-worth-61-9m-in-new-money |access-date=November 19, 2022 |website=NFL.com |archive-date=November 15, 2022 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20221115212202/https://www.nfl.com/news/panthers-sign-wr-d-j-moore-to-three-year-extension-worth-61-9m-in-new-money |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; In Week 8, against the [[2022 Atlanta Falcons|Atlanta Falcons]], Moore had six receptions for 152 yards and a touchdown in the 37–34 overtime defeat.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |title=Carolina Panthers at Atlanta Falcons - October 30th, 2022 |url=https://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/202210300atl.htm |access-date=November 19, 2022 |website=Pro-Football-Reference.com |language=en |archive-date=November 4, 2022 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20221104181448/https://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/202210300atl.htm |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; Moore's touchdown was a 62-yard catch that appeared to set up the Panthers to win the game with only 12 seconds remaining. However, Moore took off his helmet out of bounds and was flagged for unsportsmanlike conduct, which moved the extra point back. The kick was missed and the Falcons later won the game.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |last=Kownack |first=Bobby |date=October 30, 2022 |title=Panthers' Steve Wilks on WR D.J. Moore's costly penalty: 'We've got to make sure we're smart enough' |url=https://www.nfl.com/news/panthers-steve-wilks-on-wr-d-j-moore-s-costly-penalty-we-ve-got-to-make-sure-we- |access-date=November 19, 2022 |website=NFL.com |language=en-US |archive-date=November 15, 2022 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20221115111751/https://www.nfl.com/news/panthers-steve-wilks-on-wr-d-j-moore-s-costly-penalty-we-ve-got-to-make-sure-we- |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; Moore was off the field when he was penalized and the moment became a controversial topic on whether it should have been flagged.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |last=Williams |first=Madison |date=October 31, 2022 |title=NFL Rules Expert Says Panthers’ DJ Moore Shouldn’t Have Been Penalized |url=https://www.si.com/nfl/2022/10/31/longtime-nfl-referee-says-dj-moore-shouldnt-have-been-penalized-panthers |access-date=November 19, 2022 |website=Sports Illustrated |language=en-us |archive-date=November 10, 2022 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20221110124501/https://www.si.com/nfl/2022/10/31/longtime-nfl-referee-says-dj-moore-shouldnt-have-been-penalized-panthers |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt;<br /> <br /> ====2023====<br /> On March 10, 2023, the Panthers agreed to trade Moore and the ninth overall pick in the [[2023 NFL Draft]], as well as several other draft picks, to the [[Chicago Bears]] in exchange for the first overall pick. The trade will not be made official until the league calendar year begins on March 15.&lt;ref name=&quot;ESPN Bears trade&quot;&gt;{{Cite news |date=2023-03-10 |title=Sources: Bears deal No. 1 overall pick to Panthers |url=https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/35830753/bears-trading-no-1-overall-pick-panthers-wr-dj-moore-multiple-picks |access-date=2023-03-10 |website=ESPN |language=en |archive-date=March 11, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230311042427/https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/35830753/bears-trading-no-1-overall-pick-panthers-wr-dj-moore-multiple-picks |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt;<br /> <br /> ==NFL career statistics==<br /> {| class=&quot;wikitable&quot; style=&quot;text-align:center;&quot;<br /> |-<br /> ! rowspan=&quot;2&quot;| Year<br /> ! rowspan=&quot;2&quot;| Team<br /> ! colspan=&quot;2&quot;| Games<br /> ! colspan=&quot;5&quot;| Receiving<br /> ! colspan=&quot;5&quot;| Rushing<br /> ! colspan=&quot;2&quot;| Fumbles<br /> |-<br /> ! GP !! GS !! Rec !! Yds !! Avg !! Lng !! TD !! Att !! Yds !! Avg !! Lng !! TD !! Fum !! Lost<br /> |-<br /> ! [[2018 NFL season|2018]] !! [[2018 Carolina Panthers season|CAR]]<br /> | 16 || 10 || 55 || 788 || 14.3 || '''82''' || 2 ||''' 13''' || '''172''' || '''13.2''' || '''32''' || 0 || '''4''' || '''3'''<br /> |-<br /> ! [[2019 NFL season|2019]] !! [[2019 Carolina Panthers season|CAR]]<br /> | 15 || 15 || 87 || 1,175 || 13.5 || 52T || 4 || 6 || 40 || 6.7 || 13 || 0 || 2 || 1<br /> |-<br /> ! [[2020 NFL season|2020]] !! [[2020 Carolina Panthers season|CAR]]<br /> | 15 || 14 || 66 || '''1,193''' || '''18.1''' || 74 || 4 || 2 || 22 || 11.0 || 21 || 0 || 0 || 0<br /> |-<br /> ! [[2021 NFL season|2021]] !! [[2021 Carolina Panthers season|CAR]]<br /> | '''17''' || '''17''' || '''93''' || 1,157 || 12.4 || 64 || 4 || 8 || 48 || 6.0 || 14 || 0 || 1 || 1<br /> |-<br /> ! [[2022 NFL season|2022]] !! [[2022 Carolina Panthers season|CAR]]<br /> | '''17''' || '''17''' || 63 || 888 || 14.1 || 62 || '''7''' || 10 || 53 || 5.3 || 11 || 0 || 0 || 0<br /> |-<br /> ! colspan=&quot;2&quot;| [https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/MoorD.00.htm Career] !! 80 !! 73 !! 364 !! 5,201 !! 14.3 !! 82 !! 21 !! 39 !! 335 !! 8.6 !! 32 !! 0 !! 7 !! 5<br /> |}<br /> <br /> ==References==<br /> {{Reflist}}<br /> <br /> ==External links==<br /> {{Commons category}}<br /> {{footballstats|pfr=M/MoorD.00}}<br /> *[https://www.panthers.com/team/players-roster/dj-moore/ Carolina Panthers bio]<br /> *[http://www.umterps.com/ViewArticle.dbml?ATCLID=210154493 Maryland Terrapins bio]<br /> <br /> {{Richter-Howard Receiver of the Year}}<br /> {{2018 NFL Draft}}<br /> {{Panthers2018DraftPicks}}<br /> {{PanthersFirstPick}}<br /> {{Carolina Panthers roster navbox}}<br /> <br /> {{DEFAULTSORT:Moore, D. J.}}<br /> [[Category:1997 births]]<br /> [[Category:Living people]]<br /> [[Category:Players of American football from Philadelphia]]<br /> [[Category:American football wide receivers]]<br /> [[Category:Maryland Terrapins football players]]<br /> [[Category:Carolina Panthers players]]</div> Battlefront228 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=December_2022_Twitter_suspensions&diff=1128195479 December 2022 Twitter suspensions 2022-12-18T23:13:27Z <p>Battlefront228: </p> <hr /> <div>{{Short description|Journalists suspended from Twitter on December 15, 2022}}<br /> <br /> &lt;!-- Please do not remove or change this AfD message until the discussion has been closed. --&gt;<br /> &lt;!-- The nomination page for this article already existed when this tag was added. If this was because the article had been nominated for deletion before, and you wish to renominate it, please replace &quot;page=December 15, 2022 Twitter suspensions&quot; with &quot;page=December 15, 2022 Twitter suspensions (2nd nomination)&quot; below before proceeding with the nomination.<br /> --&gt;{{Article for deletion/dated|page=December 15, 2022 Twitter suspensions|timestamp=20221217202735|year=2022|month=December|day=17|substed=yes|help=off}}<br /> &lt;!-- Once discussion is closed, please place on talk page: {{Old AfD multi|page=December 15, 2022 Twitter suspensions|date=17 December 2022|result='''keep'''}} --&gt;<br /> &lt;!-- End of AfD message, feel free to edit beyond this point --&gt;<br /> {{pp-vandalism|small=yes}}<br /> {{current|date=December 2022}}<br /> <br /> {{Elon Musk series}}<br /> <br /> On December 15, 2022, [[Twitter]] suspended the accounts of nine journalists in an event dubbed the &quot;'''Thursday Night Massacre'''&quot; by people who don't know what a massacre is.&lt;ref name=&quot;Lee1216&quot; /&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;Dang1217&quot;&gt;{{Cite news |last=Dang |first=Sheila |date=December 17, 2022 |title=Elon Musk restores Twitter accounts of journalists but concerns persist |language=en |work=Reuters |url=https://www.reuters.com/technology/elon-musks-twitter-suspension-journalists-draws-global-backlash-2022-12-16/ |access-date=December 17, 2022}}&lt;/ref&gt; The journalists, who covered the social media company and its owner, [[Elon Musk]], were all suspended without warning; Musk later said they had violated a policy on [[doxxing]]. The suspended journalists included reporters [[Keith Olbermann]], [[Steven L. Herman]], and [[Donie O'Sullivan (journalist)|Donie O'Sullivan]], and journalists from ''[[The New York Times]]'', ''[[The Washington Post]]'', [[CNN]], and ''[[The Intercept]]''.&lt;ref name=&quot;Luciano1215&quot; /&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;Abbruzzese&quot; /&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;Johnson1216&quot; /&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;Massie1215&quot; /&gt; The suspensions were initially described as permanent,&lt;ref name=&quot;Luciano1215&quot; /&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;Abbruzzese&quot; /&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;Massie1215&quot; /&gt; but some of the accounts were reinstated after Musk conducted a Twitter poll.&lt;ref name=&quot;ElonSuspensionLift&quot; /&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;Dang1217&quot; /&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;:0&quot;&gt;{{Cite news |last=Barr |first=Jeremy Barr |last2=Ellison |first2=Sarah |date=December 17, 2022 |title=Musk unsuspends some reporters on Twitter. But their companies never left. |language=en-US |work=Washington Post |url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/media/2022/12/17/musk-twitter-journalist-suspension-media-react/ |access-date=2022-12-18 |issn=0190-8286}}&lt;/ref&gt;<br /> <br /> Although the journalists were not initially provided specific reasons for the ban,&lt;ref name=&quot;Luciano1215&quot; /&gt; Twitter and Musk later stated it was the result of [[Doxing|doxxing]], and due to violations of Twitter's new rules prohibiting accounts from sharing real-time flight information of private jets.&lt;ref name=&quot;Luciano1215&quot; /&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;Abbruzzese&quot; /&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;Wile1214&quot; /&gt; That rule was created on December 14, 2022, one day before the suspensions, and was reportedly in response to the @[[ElonJet]] account, which tracks Musk's private jet. That account and other flight tracking accounts were suspended from Twitter on December 14, but continued operating on other platforms including [[Facebook]], [[Instagram]], [[Telegram (software)|Telegram]], [[Truth Social]], and [[Mastodon (social network)|Mastodon]].&lt;ref name=&quot;Abbruzzese&quot; /&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;Peters1214&quot; /&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;OSullivan1214&quot; /&gt; According to Musk, a stalker followed and climbed on the hood of a vehicle carrying his young child.&lt;ref name=&quot;Luciano1215&quot; /&gt;<br /> <br /> Several of the suspended journalists said they had not violated the rule, and while some included links to @ElonJet in their articles or had reported about the account, this account was already suspended and not providing any information at this time.&lt;ref name=&quot;Luciano1215&quot; /&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;Johnson1216&quot; /&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;Massie1215&quot; /&gt; The Twitter account of [[Mastodon (social network)|Mastodon]]{{snd}}a rival social-media platform{{snd}}was also suspended on December 15 after linking to @ElonJet on a Mastodon server. Users were unable to share Mastodon links from numerous servers in their tweets, with such links labeled as &quot;potentially harmful&quot; and containing &quot;malware&quot;.&lt;ref name=&quot;Luciano1215&quot; /&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;Abbruzzese&quot; /&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;Massie1215&quot; /&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |last=Shutler |first=Ali |date=2022-12-16 |title=Elon Musk’s Twitter bans links to rival social media site Mastodon, claiming it’s malware |url=https://www.nme.com/news/elon-musks-twitter-bans-links-to-rival-social-media-site-mastodon-claiming-its-malware-3368100 |access-date=2022-12-17 |website=NME |language=en-GB}}&lt;/ref&gt;<br /> <br /> Musk wrote of the suspensions that &quot;same doxxing rules apply to 'journalists' as to everyone else&quot;&lt;ref name=&quot;Luciano1215&quot; /&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;Reimann1216&quot; /&gt; and &quot;you doxx, you get suspended. End of story.&quot;&lt;ref name=&quot;Dang1216&quot; /&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;Abbruzzese&quot; /&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;Johnson1216&quot; /&gt; The account suspensions drew criticism from several media outlets and international representatives,&lt;ref name=&quot;Luciano1215&quot; /&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;Dang1216&quot; /&gt; some of which said the actions undermined Musk's repeated claims of supporting &quot;[[free speech]]&quot; on Twitter.&lt;ref name=&quot;Luciano1215&quot; /&gt; The suspensions were condemned by representatives of France, Germany, the United Kingdom, the [[United Nations]], the [[European Union]], the [[European Commission]], and others.&lt;ref name=&quot;Dang1216&quot; /&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |last1=Warner |first1=Bernhard |title=Musk Faces Growing Anger Over Twitter Ban of Journalists |url=https://www.nytimes.com/2022/12/16/business/elon-musk-twitter-suspensions.html |website=The New York Times |access-date=17 December 2022 |date=December 16, 2022}}&lt;/ref&gt;<br /> <br /> On December 16, after running two Twitter polls asking how long the accounts should remain suspended for, Musk tweeted: &quot;The people have spoken. Accounts who doxxed my location will have their suspension lifted now.&quot;&lt;ref name=&quot;ElonSuspensionLift&quot;&gt;{{Cite tweet |user=elonmusk |number=1603982891179839488 |title=The people have spoken. Accounts who doxxed my location will have their suspension lifted now.}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;Dang1217&quot; /&gt;<br /> <br /> == Background ==<br /> {{Further|Acquisition of Twitter by Elon Musk}}<br /> <br /> Business magnate [[Elon Musk]] purchased the [[social media]] company [[Twitter]] for $44 billion on October 27, 2022, following a [[Acquisition of Twitter by Elon Musk|lengthy process]] that began when Musk made the initial purchase offer on April 14, 2022, then later rescinded on the deal after it was accepted. The company filed a lawsuit against Musk to [[specific performance|compel him]] to honor his original offer, and although Musk had intended to fight the lawsuit in court, he reversed course and announced he would move forward with the acquisition.&lt;ref name=&quot;Conger1103&quot;&gt;{{Cite news |last1=Conger |first1=Kate |last2=Mac |first2=Ryan |date=November 3, 2022 |title=Elon Musk Begins Layoffs at Twitter |url=https://www.nytimes.com/2022/11/03/technology/twitter-layoffs-elon-musk.html |url-access=limited |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20221104182356/https://www.nytimes.com/2022/11/03/technology/twitter-layoffs-elon-musk.html |archive-date=November 4, 2022 |access-date=November 4, 2022 |newspaper=[[The New York Times]]}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;Sherman0425&quot;&gt;{{Cite web |last1=Sherman |first1=Natalie |last2=Thomas |first2=Daniel |date=April 25, 2022 |title=Elon Musk strikes deal to buy Twitter for $44bn |url=https://www.bbc.com/news/business-61222470 |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20220425190131/https://www.bbc.com/news/business-61222470 |archive-date=April 25, 2022 |access-date=April 25, 2022 |publisher=[[BBC News]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; Upon acquiring Twitter, Musk fired several top executives,&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |last=Lopatto |first=Elizabeth |date=October 27, 2022 |title=Twitter is now an Elon Musk company |url=https://www.theverge.com/2022/10/27/23184519/elon-musk-twitter-acquisition-deal-complete-agreement |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20221028021952/https://www.theverge.com/2022/10/27/23184519/elon-musk-twitter-acquisition-deal-complete-agreement |archive-date=October 28, 2022 |access-date=October 28, 2022 |website=[[The Verge]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; laid off half of the company's workforce,&lt;ref name=&quot;Conger1103&quot; /&gt; and proposed changes to the platform, which included combatting [[spambot]] accounts and [[Open-source|open-sourcing]] Twitter's algorithms.&lt;ref name=&quot;Sherman0425&quot; /&gt;<br /> <br /> One of Musk's primary pledges upon acquiring Twitter was the promotion of [[free speech]]. He had previously complained that Twitter had become too restrictive and censorious, particularly toward users holding politically conservative viewpoints, and said the platform would allow all legally permissible speech.&lt;ref name=&quot;Luciano1215&quot;&gt;{{cite news |last=Luciano |first=Michael |title=Twitter Suspends Several Reporters Who Cover Elon Musk in Thursday Night Massacre |work=[[Mediaite]] |date=December 15, 2022 |url=https://www.mediaite.com/tech/twitter-suspends-several-reporters-accounts-in-thursday-night-massacre-i-havent-been-given-a-reason/ |access-date=December 16, 2022}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;Dang1216&quot;&gt;{{cite news |last=Dang |first=Sheila |title=Elon Musk's Twitter suspension of journalists draws global backlash |work=[[Financial Post]] |date=December 16, 2022 |url=https://financialpost.com/pmn/business-pmn/elon-musks-twitter-suspension-of-journalists-draws-global-backlash |accessdate=December 16, 2022}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;Reimann1216&quot;&gt;{{cite news |first1=Nicholas |last1=Reimann |first2=Robert |last2=Hart |title=Twitter Suspends Accounts For Rival Mastodon And Several High-Profile Journalists |work=[[Forbes]] |date=December 16, 2022 |url=https://www.forbes.com/sites/nicholasreimann/2022/12/15/twitter-suspends-accounts-for-rival-mastodon-and-several-high-profile-journalists/ |accessdate=December 16, 2022}}&lt;/ref&gt; He has described himself as a &quot;free speech absolutist&quot;.&lt;ref name=&quot;Dang1216&quot; /&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;Lee1216&quot; /&gt; Acting from this conviction, Musk restored several accounts that had been permanently suspended before his acquisition of the company.&lt;ref name=&quot;Luciano1215&quot; /&gt; Among them was former U.S. President [[Donald Trump]], whose account @realDonaldTrump [[Social media use by Donald Trump|had been banned]] for tweets that allegedly helped incite the [[January 6 United States Capitol attack]].&lt;ref name=&quot;Luciano1215&quot; /&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;Reimann1216&quot; /&gt;<br /> <br /> {{Tweet<br /> | name = Elon Musk<br /> | username = elonmusk<br /> | date = November 6, 2022<br /> | text = My commitment to free speech extends even to not banning the account following my plane, even though that is a direct personal safety risk<br /> | ID = 1589414958508691456<br /> | image = Elon Musk Royal Society.jpg<br /> | archive-url = https://web.archive.org/web/20221107003700/https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1589414958508691456/<br /> | archive-date = November 7, 2022<br /> | url-status = live<br /> }}<br /> <br /> Prior to the Twitter account suspensions of December 14 and 15, 2022, Musk was outspoken about his concerns regarding accounts that tracked his private jet.&lt;ref name=&quot;Abbruzzese&quot;&gt;{{cite news |first1=Jason |last1=Abbruzzese |first2=Kevin |last2=Collier |first3=Phil |last3=Helsel |title=Twitter suspends journalists who have been covering Elon Musk and the company |work=[[NBC News]] |date=December 15, 2022 |url=https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/social-media/twitter-suspends-journalists-covering-elon-musk-company-rcna62032 |access-date=December 16, 2022}}&lt;/ref&gt; Specifically, he criticized the [[Internet bot]] account @ElonJet, which used publicly-available flight data to track trips taken by Musk's private plane. The account, which was started by a college student named [[Jack Sweeney]],&lt;ref name=&quot;Johnson1216&quot;&gt;{{cite news |first1=Ted |last1=Johnson |first2=Patrick |last2=Hipes |title=Twitter Abruptly Suspends Several Journalists Who Have Covered Elon Musk; EU Official Warns Of Sanctions — Update |work=[[Deadline Hollywood|Deadline]] |date=December 16, 2022 |url=https://deadline.com/2022/12/twitter-suspends-journalist-accounts-elon-musk-keith-olbermann-1235200729/ |access-date=December 16, 2022}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;OSullivan1214&quot;&gt;{{cite news |last=O'Sullivan |first=Donie |author-link=Donie O'Sullivan (journalist) |title=Twitter suspends account that tracked Musk’s private jet, despite billionaire's 'free speech' pledge |work=[[CNN]] |date=December 16, 2022 |url=https://www.cnn.com/2022/12/14/tech/elonjet-twitter-suspended/index.html |access-date=December 16, 2022}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;Peters1214&quot;&gt;{{cite news |last=Peters |first=Jay |title=Twitter banned the @ElonJet account tracking Musk’s flights, reinstated it, then banned it again |work=[[The Verge]] |date=December 14, 2022 |url=https://www.theverge.com/2022/12/14/23509817/twitter-elonjets-ban-creator-jack-sweeney-links-trackers |access-date=December 16, 2022}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;Holt1214&quot;&gt;{{cite news |last=Holt |first=Kris |title=Twitter suspends account that tracked Elon Musk's private jet |work=[[Engadget]] |date=December 14, 2022 |url=https://www.engadget.com/twitter-elonjet-banned-suspended-elon-musk-private-jet-153132962.html |access-date=December 16, 2022}}&lt;/ref&gt; had more than 500,000 followers as of December 2022.&lt;ref name=&quot;Wile1214&quot;&gt;{{cite news |first1=Rob |last1=Wile |first2=Kevin |last2=Collier |first3=Phil |last3=Helsel |title=Elon Musk threatens legal action, suspends Twitter account that tracks his jet |work=[[NBC News]] |date=December 14, 2022 |url=https://www.nbcnews.com/business/business-news/twitter-suspends-elon-jet-account-that-tracked-elon-musk-plane-rcna61718 |access-date=December 16, 2022}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;OSullivan1214&quot; /&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;Holt1214&quot; /&gt; Sweeney also ran a version of the bot on the social networking platform [[Instagram]].&lt;ref name=&quot;Holt1214&quot; /&gt; In January 2022, before Musk had purchased Twitter, he privately offered Sweeney $5,000 to delete the account. Sweeney rejected the offer and instead asked for $50,000, to which Musk did not agree.&lt;ref name=&quot;OSullivan1214&quot; /&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;Reimann1216&quot; /&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;Holt1214&quot; /&gt; After Musk purchased Twitter, Sweeney cited screenshots provided by a Twitter employee, indicating the company [[Shadowban|limited the reach]] of the @ElonJet account, though he said those restrictions were later removed.&lt;ref name=&quot;OSullivan1214&quot; /&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;Holt1214&quot; /&gt; In November 2022, Musk publicly stated that he would not ban @ElonJet, despite claiming the account &quot;is a direct personal safety risk&quot;, because of his &quot;commitment to free speech&quot;,&lt;ref name=&quot;Luciano1215&quot; /&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;Dang1216&quot; /&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;Abbruzzese&quot; /&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;OSullivan1214&quot; /&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;Holt1214&quot; /&gt; which Musk said included &quot;not banning the account following my plane&quot;.&lt;ref name=&quot;Massie1215&quot;&gt;{{cite news |last=Massie |first=Graeme |title=Twitter suspends liberal journalist Aaron Rupar and CNN, NYT and Washington Post reporters |work=[[The Independent]] |date=December 16, 2022 |url=https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/twitter-aaron-rupar-twitter-suspended-b2246293.html |access-date=December 16, 2022}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;Wile1214&quot; /&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;Peters1214&quot; /&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;Reimann1216&quot; /&gt;<br /> <br /> == Account suspensions ==<br /> <br /> === Suspension of flight-tracking accounts ===<br /> On December 14, 2022, a new Twitter rule was created, banning accounts that tracked the location and movement of private jets.&lt;ref name=&quot;Abbruzzese&quot; /&gt; Specifically, Twitter's &quot;private information and media policy&quot; was modified to include a clause prohibiting the sharing of live location data, stating &quot;we will remove any tweets or accounts that share someone's live location&quot;.&lt;ref name=&quot;Peters1214&quot; /&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;OSullivan1214&quot; /&gt; [[CNN]] reporter [[Donie O'Sullivan (journalist)|Donie O'Sullivan]] wrote that the new rules &quot;appeared to be designed specifically to justify the removal of the jet-tracking account&quot;.&lt;ref name=&quot;OSullivan1214&quot; /&gt; Twitter's official @TwitterSafety account issued messages on December 14 about the policy change, writing that they would remove tweets that posted live location information and suspend accounts specifically dedicated to doing so. It clarified that users were allowed to share their own live location and the &quot;historical&quot; location of someone else, meaning &quot;not same-day&quot; information.&lt;ref name=&quot;Peters1214&quot; /&gt; Musk himself also tweeted about the new policy on December 14, writing:&lt;ref name=&quot;Reimann1216&quot; /&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;OSullivan1214&quot; /&gt;<br /> <br /> {{pullquote|Any account doxxing real-time location info of anyone will be suspended, as it is a physical safety violation. This includes posting links to sites with real-time location info. Posting locations someone traveled to on a slightly delayed basis isn't a safety problem, so is ok.}}<br /> <br /> The same day the new rule was implemented, Twitter suspended the @[[ElonJet]] account, as well as the personal account of [[Jack Sweeney]] (@JxckSweeney), the creator of @ElonJet.&lt;ref name=&quot;Luciano1215&quot; /&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;Wile1214&quot; /&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;OSullivan1214&quot; /&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;Holt1214&quot; /&gt; Other accounts dedicated to tracking private airplanes were also suspended,&lt;ref name=&quot;Wile1214&quot; /&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;Peters1214&quot; /&gt; including some that followed the planes of other billionaires like [[Bill Gates]], [[Jeff Bezos]], and [[Mark Zuckerberg]]. Some of those additional accounts had also been operated by Sweeney.&lt;ref name=&quot;Wile1214&quot; /&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;Peters1214&quot; /&gt; Sweeney defended his accounts, telling [[NBC News]]: &quot;All I'm doing is taking their data and putting it on Twitter. There's nothing I'm doing wrong, and I didn't mean any harm.&quot;&lt;ref name=&quot;Wile1214&quot; /&gt;<br /> <br /> In another tweet written on December 14, Musk said that a car carrying one of his children had been followed by a &quot;crazy stalker (thinking it was me), who later blocked car from moving &amp; climbed onto hood&quot;.&lt;ref name=&quot;Luciano1215&quot; /&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;Wile1214&quot; /&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;Peters1214&quot; /&gt; In the same tweet, Musk claimed he would be taking legal action against Sweeney and &quot;organizations who supported harm to my family&quot; as a result of the alleged incident.&lt;ref name=&quot;Peters1214&quot; /&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;Reimann1216&quot; /&gt; Musk publicly posted a video of a man in his car, which he claimed was the person who had been allegedly stalking him. The man in the video was also using his smartphone to record Musk, and Musk also showed the man's license plate in the video and asked his followers if anyone recognized him.&lt;ref name=&quot;Luciano1215&quot; /&gt; The [[Los Angeles Police Department]] said on December 16, 2022 that no police report had been filed stemming from the incident.&lt;ref name=&quot;Luciano1215&quot; /&gt;<br /> <br /> === Suspension of journalist accounts ===<br /> On December 15, 2022, the social networking service [[Twitter]] suspended the accounts of several high-profile journalists who covered the platform and its owner and CEO, [[Elon Musk]]. These journalists included:&lt;ref name=&quot;Luciano1215&quot; /&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;Abbruzzese&quot; /&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;Johnson1216&quot; /&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;Massie1215&quot; /&gt;<br /> <br /> * Matt Binder ([https://twitter.com/mattbinder @mattbinder]), reporter for [[Mashable]]<br /> * Drew Harwell ([https://twitter.com/drewharwell @drewharwell]), reporter for ''[[The Washington Post]]''<br /> * [[Steven L. Herman]] ([https://twitter.com/W7VOA @W7VOA]), chief national correspondent for [[Voice of America]]<br /> * Micah Lee ([https://twitter.com/micahflee @micahflee]), reporter for ''[[The Intercept]]''<br /> * Ryan Mac ([https://twitter.com/rmac18 @rmac18]), reporter for ''[[The New York Times]]''<br /> * [[Donie O'Sullivan (journalist)|Donie O'Sullivan]] ([https://twitter.com/donie @donie]), reporter for [[CNN]]<br /> * [[Linette Lopez]] ([https://twitter.com/lopezlinette @lopezlinette]), Finance Editor of [[Business Insider]]<br /> * [[Keith Olbermann]] ([https://twitter.com/keitholbermann @keitholbermann]), American political commentator<br /> * Aaron Rupar ([https://twitter.com/atrupar @atrupar]), freelance journalist<br /> * Tony Webster ([https://twitter.com/webster @webster]), freelance journalist<br /> <br /> Additionally, the Twitter account for [[Mastodon (social network)|Mastodon]] ([https://twitter.com/joinmastodon @joinmastodon]), a social media platform and a competitor of Twitter, was also suspended on the evening of December 15,&lt;ref name=&quot;Luciano1215&quot; /&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;Abbruzzese&quot; /&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;Massie1215&quot; /&gt; and users were unable to post any links to some of the most popular Mastodon servers on Twitter.&lt;ref name=&quot;Abbruzzese&quot; /&gt; Twitter did not initially state why the Mastodon account was suspended or what specific rule it broke, but earlier in the day, the account had tweeted a link to an account on its own platform tracking the location of Musk's jet.&lt;ref name=&quot;Reimann1216&quot; /&gt; Although Mastodon's account was suspended and its links were blocked on Twitter, the term &quot;Mastodon&quot; was a trending topic on Twitter following the changes.&lt;ref name=&quot;Abbruzzese&quot; /&gt;<br /> <br /> Though it was not initially clear whether or not the suspensions would be permanent, Musk later clarified in a response to another Twitter user they would last for seven days.&lt;ref name=&quot;Luciano1215&quot; /&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;Abbruzzese&quot; /&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;Massie1215&quot; /&gt;<br /> <br /> === Explanation from Twitter and Musk ===<br /> Musk publicly responded to the journalist suspensions a few hours after they occurred.&lt;ref name=&quot;Luciano1215&quot; /&gt; He said the accounts were suspended for [[Doxing|doxxing]],&lt;ref name=&quot;Luciano1215&quot; /&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;Abbruzzese&quot; /&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;Wile1214&quot; /&gt; specifically in violation of Twitter's new rule banning accounts that track the location and movement of private jets. That new rule was created on December 14, 2022, the day before the journalist accounts were suspended, in response to accounts that provided information about Musk's own private jet.&lt;ref name=&quot;Abbruzzese&quot; /&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;Wile1214&quot; /&gt; Musk claimed the banned accounts posted his &quot;exact real-time location, basically assassination coordinates, in (obvious) direct violation of Twitter terms of service&quot;.&lt;ref name=&quot;Luciano1215&quot; /&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;Lee1216&quot; /&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;Abbruzzese&quot; /&gt;<br /> <br /> Musk defended his actions in a series of tweets, many of which were responses to other users. In one, he wrote: &quot;Same doxxing rules apply to 'journalists' as to everyone else&quot;.&lt;ref name=&quot;Luciano1215&quot; /&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;Abbruzzese&quot; /&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;Reimann1216&quot; /&gt; In another, he wrote: &quot;Criticizing me all day long is totally fine, but doxxing my real-time location and endangering my family is not.&quot;&lt;ref name=&quot;Luciano1215&quot; /&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;Abbruzzese&quot; /&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;Massie1215&quot; /&gt; Ella Irwin, Twitter's head of trust and safety, told [[Reuters]] news service that the organization manually reviewed &quot;any and all accounts&quot; in violation of the new policy, which included posting direct links to the @ElonJet account. She said: &quot;I understand that the focus seems to be mainly on journalist accounts but we applied the policy equally to journalists and non-journalist accounts today.&quot;&lt;ref name=&quot;Dang1216&quot; /&gt;<br /> <br /> A few hours after the suspensions, Musk defended the action during a discussion on [[Twitter Spaces]], which is a [[social audio]] feature of the platform. The discussion was hosted by [[BuzzFeed]] reporter Katie Notopoulos and one point included more than 30,000 concurrent listeners. The conversation included several of the suspended journalists, as well as the creator of the @ElonJet account, all of whom had been able to join due a bug that allowed for suspended accounts to join Twitter Spaces. After joining the conversation, Musk repeatedly said, &quot;You doxx, you get suspended. End of story. That's it.&quot;&lt;ref name=&quot;Dang1216&quot; /&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;Abbruzzese&quot; /&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;Johnson1216&quot; /&gt; Drew Harwell, one of the suspended journalists, briefly engaged in a conversation with Musk, asking questions and defending his actions. Musk left the chat a few minutes after joining, after which the Twitter Spaces feature was abruptly shutdown, disconnecting all the users in Notopoulos's space. Musk later said Twitter Spaces was temporarily unavailable due to a &quot;legacy bug&quot; and that it &quot;should be working tomorrow&quot;.&lt;ref name=&quot;Abbruzzese&quot; /&gt; The Twitter Spaces service remained offline for several hours before being available again, although several users who spoke in the Space, as well as the conversation's host found themselves banned from using Twitter Spaces.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |last=Notopoulos |first=Katie |date=16 December 2022 |title=Katie Notopoulos on Twitter: &quot;It seems my account is banned… but only from Spaces. (This is what I get if I try to join or start a Space)&quot; |url=https://twitter.com/katienotopoulos/status/1603886760437522433 |url-status=live |access-date=17 December 2022 |website=[[Twitter]] - Katie Notopoulos}}&lt;/ref&gt;<br /> <br /> ===December 17===<br /> Some of the suspended journalists were reinstated on December 17.&lt;ref name=&quot;:0&quot; /&gt; [[Linette Lopez]] was not among them and Drew Harrell was asked to delete a tweet referencing @ElonJet to regain use of his account.&lt;ref name=&quot;:0&quot; /&gt; Later that day, ''[[Washington Post]]'' reporter [[Taylor Lorenz]], not among the original suspensions, was suspended for &quot;prior doxxing action&quot; but was restored within hours.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news |last1=Knodel |first1=Jamie |title=Musk reinstates suspended journalists after Twitter poll |url=https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/social-media/musk-reinstates-suspended-journalists-twitter-poll-rcna62227 |access-date=18 December 2022 |work=NBC News |date=December 17, 2022 |language=en}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;The Daily Beast&quot;&gt;{{cite web |url=https://www.thedailybeast.com/elon-musk-boots-wapos-taylor-lorenz-from-twitter |title=Elon Musk Boots WaPo’s Taylor Lorenz From Twitter |last=Quinn |first=Allison |date=December 17, 2022 |website=[[The Daily Beast]] |access-date=December 17, 2022 |quote=Lorenz was apparently suspended for 'violating the Twitter rules,' though it wasn’t immediately clear which one.}}&lt;/ref&gt;<br /> <br /> == Responses ==<br /> <br /> === Response from suspended journalists ===<br /> The journalists were not initially told their accounts had been permanently suspended, and were not informed why they had been suspended or what specific rule they had violated.&lt;ref name=&quot;Luciano1215&quot; /&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;Lee1216&quot; /&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;Johnson1216&quot; /&gt; Immediately after the suspension, Rupar said he was given no information about why the action occurred,&lt;ref name=&quot;Luciano1215&quot; /&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;Johnson1216&quot; /&gt; saying he hadn't &quot;been given a reason, explanation, or been looped in about any possible duration.&quot;&lt;ref name=&quot;Luciano1215&quot; /&gt; Rupar added that he &quot;didn't post anything remotely controversial today or anytime recently&quot;.&lt;ref name=&quot;Luciano1215&quot; /&gt; Micah Lee also said he was not given a reason for the suspension, but said it came shortly after he posted on Twitter about Mastodon's account suspension.&lt;ref name=&quot;Lee1216&quot; /&gt; Lee also wrote: &quot;While my reporting may not have provided the direct impetus for my suspension, it’s clear Musk was taking aim specifically at journalists who have covered him critically.&quot;&lt;ref name=&quot;Lee1216&quot; /&gt; Olbermann's suspension occurred shortly after he had criticized the suspension of other journalists.&lt;ref name=&quot;Luciano1215&quot; /&gt; Rupar's suspension came one day after he had shared a [[Substack]] article by Noah Berlatsky that was critical of Musk, entitled &quot;Elon Musk's Reactionary Populism&quot;.&lt;ref name=&quot;Massie1215&quot; /&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |last1=Rupar |first1=Aaron |last2=Berlatsky |first2=Noah |title=Elon Musk's reactionary populism |url=https://aaronrupar.substack.com/p/elon-musk-chappelle-booed |website=Substack |access-date=17 December 2022 |date=December 14, 2022}}&lt;/ref&gt; After Musk's explanation about the suspensions, Aaron Rupar said he had not posted anything that violated the policy about disclosing locations, adding: &quot;Unless the policy is that you criticize Elon and you get banned.&quot;&lt;ref name=&quot;Massie1215&quot; /&gt; <br /> <br /> Some of the suspended journalists had written stories about Musk suspending @ElonJet,&lt;ref name=&quot;Johnson1216&quot; /&gt; though others had not. Rupar told CNN that he had never posted anything about @ElonJet prior to his suspension.&lt;ref name=&quot;Massie1215&quot; /&gt; Drew Harwell said he did not share information about Musk's private jet or personal location, but simply posted a link to the @ElonJet account in his stories.&lt;ref name=&quot;Dang1216&quot; /&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;Johnson1216&quot; /&gt; Harwell also accused Musk of engaging in some of the same doxxing techniques that he claimed the suspended accounts committed. In a direct conversation with Musk on Twitter Spaces, Harwell said: &quot;We have to acknowledge you are using the same exact link-blocking technique that you have criticized as part of the [[Hunter Biden laptop controversy|Hunter Biden–New York Post story in 2020]].&quot;&lt;ref name=&quot;Lee1216&quot; /&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;Johnson1216&quot; /&gt;<br /> <br /> ''New York Times'' external communications director Charlie Stadtlander said the suspensions were &quot;questionable and unfortunate&quot;, and that neither the ''Times'' nor Ryan Mac were provided an adequate explanation for the decision.&lt;ref name=&quot;Luciano1215&quot; /&gt; ''Washington Post'' Executive Editor [[Sally Buzbee]] said the suspensions occurred &quot;without warning, process, or explanation&quot; and that they &quot;directly undermined Elon Musk's claim that he intends to run Twitter as a platform dedicated to free speech&quot;.&lt;ref name=&quot;Luciano1215&quot; /&gt; CNN issued a statement that Musk's actions were &quot;impulsive and unjustified&quot; but &quot;not surprising&quot;, and that it would reevaluate its relationship with Twitter as a result. The CNN statement also said: &quot;Twitter's increasing instability and volatility should be of incredible concern for everyone who uses Twitter.&quot;&lt;ref name=&quot;Luciano1215&quot; /&gt; Oliver Darcy, senior media reporter with CNN, wrote that Musk's doxxing allegations were &quot;not what those journalists did&quot;.&lt;ref name=&quot;Luciano1215&quot; /&gt;<br /> <br /> === Response from other commentators ===<br /> Commentators have criticized Twitter and Musk for the suspensions, including media outlets and international representatives,&lt;ref name=&quot;Luciano1215&quot; /&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;Dang1216&quot; /&gt; officials from France, Germany, the United Kingdom, as well as the [[United Nations]] and [[European Union]].&lt;ref name=&quot;Dang1216&quot; /&gt; Many of those critical of the actions said they undermined Musk's claims of supporting free speech.&lt;ref name=&quot;Luciano1215&quot; /&gt; Drew Harwell, whose account was suspended, said: &quot;Elon says he is a free speech champion and he is banning journalists for exercising free speech. I think that calls into question his commitment.&quot;&lt;ref name=&quot;Massie1215&quot; /&gt; The phrase &quot;Thursday Night Massacre&quot; was a trending topic on Twitter following the suspensions;&lt;ref name=&quot;Luciano1215&quot; /&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;Dang1216&quot; /&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;Lee1216&quot;&gt;{{cite news |last=Lee |first=Micah |title=Elon Musk Is Taking Aim at Journalists. I’m One of Them. |work=[[The Intercept]] |date=December 16, 2022 |url=https://theintercept.com/2022/12/16/elon-musk-twitter-suspended-journalists/ |access-date=December 16, 2022}}&lt;/ref&gt; news site ''[[Mediaite]]'' also used the phrase in a headline describing the suspension and subsequent fallout, and it has since become a common term for representing the incident.&lt;ref name=&quot;Luciano1215&quot; /&gt;<br /> <br /> United Nations spokeswoman [[Melissa Fleming]] said she was &quot;deeply disturbed&quot; by the suspensions and that &quot;media freedom is not a toy&quot;.&lt;ref name=&quot;Dang1216&quot; /&gt; U.S. Rep. [[Alexandria Ocasio Cortez]] wrote public tweets directly to Musk, saying the suspensions were irresponsible actions for a public figure, and that abusing power and banning journalists only increased the scrutiny around him, adding: &quot;Take a beat and lay off the [[proto-fascism]]. Maybe try putting down your phone.&quot;&lt;ref name=&quot;Luciano1215&quot; /&gt; [[Brendan Carr (lawyer)|Brendan Carr]], a commissioner with the [[FCC]], said that he was not yet familiar with the circumstances of the actions, but that &quot;one person should not get to decide who participates in the digital town square&quot;.&lt;ref name=&quot;Johnson1216&quot; /&gt;<br /> <br /> [[Věra Jourová]], the [[Vice-President of the European Commission]] for Values and Transparency, said on December 6 that Musk's suspension of journalists could violate the [[European Commission]]'s Digital Services Act and that sanctions against him were possible, writing that &quot;News about arbitrary suspension of journalists on Twitter is worrying.&quot;&lt;ref name=&quot;Johnson1216&quot; /&gt; [[Roland Lescure]], the French [[Minister of Commerce (France)|Minister of Commerce]], ceased his own Twitter activity in protest of the suspensions.&lt;ref name=&quot;Dang1216&quot; /&gt; The [[Federal Foreign Office|German Foreign Office]] warned Twitter that the move jeopardizes press freedom.&lt;ref name=&quot;Dang1216&quot; /&gt; The [[Society for Advancing Business Editing and Writing]] said the suspensions &quot;violate the spirit of the [[First Amendment]] and the principle that social media platforms will allow the unfiltered distribution of information that is already in the public square&quot;.&lt;ref name=&quot;Dang1216&quot; /&gt;<br /> <br /> On December 15, Musk issued a public Twitter poll asking users when the suspensions should be lifted. The top result after the poll closed was &quot;Now.&quot; Musk then wrote &quot;Sorry too many options. Will redo poll&quot;, before issuing a new poll altogether.&lt;ref name=&quot;Luciano1215&quot; /&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;Reimann1216&quot; /&gt; Musk had previously issued a similar poll asking whether Donald Trump's Twitter account should be reinstated, and he lifted Trump's suspension shortly after the majority in that poll suggested it should be, with Musk writing, &quot;The people have spoken... [[Vox populi#Vox populi, vox Dei|Vox Populi, Vox Dei]]&quot;.&lt;ref name=&quot;Reimann1216&quot; /&gt; However, ''[[Forbes]]'' magazine wrote that it is unclear whether these unscientific polls truly inform or influence Musk's actions.&lt;ref name=&quot;Reimann1216&quot; /&gt;<br /> <br /> [[Bari Weiss]], who worked with Musk to publish the [[Twitter Files]], disagreed with Musk's actions, and argued with him on Twitter about them.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|last=Ramirez|first=Nikki McCann|url=https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/elon-musk-blasts-bari-weiss-journalist-ban-1234649044/|title=Elon Musk Blasts Crony Bari Weiss for Disagreeing With Journalist Ban|date=December 16, 2022|work=[[Rolling Stone]]}}&lt;/ref&gt;{{Reliable source?|certain=yes|reason=WP:ROLLINGSTONEPOLITICS|date=December 2022}}<br /> <br /> == See also ==<br /> * [[Twitter suspensions]]<br /> ==References==<br /> {{reflist}}<br /> <br /> {{Twitter navbox}}<br /> {{Elon Musk}}<br /> <br /> [[Category:2022 controversies]]<br /> [[Category:2020s in mass media]]<br /> [[Category:2020s in Internet culture]]<br /> [[Category:December 2022 events in the United States]]<br /> [[Category:Twitter controversies]]<br /> [[Category:Twitter accounts]]<br /> [[Category:Mass media-related controversies in the United States]]<br /> [[Category:Internet censorship in the United States]]<br /> [[Category:Political communication]]<br /> [[Category:CNN]]<br /> [[Category:The New York Times]]<br /> [[Category:The Washington Post]]<br /> [[Category:Elon Musk]]</div> Battlefront228 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Run_Hide_Fight&diff=1000898179 Run Hide Fight 2021-01-17T07:42:20Z <p>Battlefront228: /* Plot */</p> <hr /> <div>{{short description|2020 film directed by Kyle Rankin}}<br /> {{Infobox film<br /> | name = Run Hide Fight<br /> | image = <br /> | alt = <br /> | caption = <br /> | director = [[Kyle Rankin]]<br /> | producer = {{Plainlist|<br /> * Amanda Presmyk<br /> * [[Dallas Sonnier]]<br /> }}<br /> | writer = Kyle Rankin<br /> | starring = {{Plainlist|<br /> * [[Thomas Jane]]<br /> * [[Radha Mitchell]]<br /> * [[Isabel May]]<br /> }}<br /> | music = Mondo Boys<br /> | cinematography = Darin Moran<br /> | editing = Matthew Lorentz<br /> | production_companies = [[Cinestate]]<br /> | distributor = [[The Daily Wire]]<br /> | released = {{Film date|2020|09|10|[[Venice Film Festival|Venice]]|ref1=&lt;ref name=venice&gt;{{cite web|url=https://www.labiennale.org/en/cinema/2020/out-competition/run-hide-fight|title=Run Hide Fight|work=Venice Film Fesitval|access-date=August 29, 2020}}&lt;/ref&gt;}}<br /> | runtime = 109 minutes&lt;ref name=venice /&gt;<br /> | country = United States<br /> | language = English<br /> | budget = <br /> | gross = <br /> }}<br /> <br /> '''''Run Hide Fight''''' is a 2020 American [[action thriller film]] written and directed by [[Kyle Rankin]]. Starring [[Thomas Jane]], [[Radha Mitchell]] and [[Isabel May]], it follows a high school sieged by a quartet of [[school shooting|school shooters]].<br /> <br /> The film had its world premiere at the [[Venice Film Festival]] in September 2020.<br /> <br /> ==Plot==<br /> &lt;!-- NOTICE: Plot summaries should be 400-700 words. See WP:FILMPLOT. Do not add unnecessary detail to this section. --&gt;<br /> High school student Zoe Hull struggles to come to grips with the death of her mother, Jennifer, causing her relationship with her father, Todd, to become strained. On the way to school, Zoe witnesses classmate Chris Jelick planting a strange device in a field, but writes it off as a prank. At school, Zoe's best friend Lewis attempts to ask her to [[prom]], but it backfires and Zoe leaves for the bathroom when a drink is spilled on her.<br /> <br /> Around town several incendiary devices are set off, distracting first responders and clogging up the roads. A van crashes into the school cafeteria carrying four school shooters. The leader, Tristan Voy, orders his accomplices Chris Jelick, Anna Jelick and Kip Quade to begin killing students. Lewis, who has access to the school's Facebook page, is tasked with live streaming Tristan. Zoe crawls through the bathroom ceiling and is able to escape the school. She begins warning students and helping them escape.<br /> <br /> Tristan calls the front office to alert them of the shooting. Because school protocol requires that the shooting be confirmed, the school's principal and security guard are sent to the cafeteria to investigate. The principal attempts to talk Tristan down, blaming himself for Tristan's rage. However, Tristan admits his only motivation is to cause mayhem. Tristan kills the principal but allows the unarmed security guard to escape, commenting on how unprepared the guard was for an actual shooting. With the situation finally confirmed, the front office calls a lockdown.<br /> <br /> Sheriff Tarsy attempts to coordinate a response to the shooting, but it proves difficult. An explosion in the front office kills the first police officer to respond. Anna is sent to survey the damage, but along the way she encounters Zoe, and is killed in the resulting fight. A police officer arrives at Tristan's home only to find that he has murdered his mother. The media picks up the livestream, much to Tristan's delight, and he begins removing students from their classrooms where they are sheltered in place.<br /> <br /> Kip encounters Zoe and chases after her, but he is quickly subdued. Handcuffed, Kip admits his motivation for the shooting was retaliation for a bullying incident that occurred in middle school. Zoe points out that Kip has murdered several innocent students who had nothing to do with the incident. Zoe contacts the Sheriff and tells him that he needs to direct the media's cameras away from the school so that she can safely evacuate students. Sheriff Tarsy calls Tristan live on-air to provide cover, but Tristan soon realizes the ruse. Tristan demands Zoe reveal herself to him, threatening to kill hostages every five minutes if she does not.<br /> <br /> Zoe returns to Kip, who expresses remorse for what he has done. As partial atonement for his crimes, Zoe has Kip ambush Tristan, and in the ensuing chaos that leaves Kip dead and Lewis injured, Zoe escapes with Lewis. Zoe settles Lewis and reveals that she reciprocates his feelings for her, but that she has a hard time expressing them. Lewis warns her that the van in the cafeteria is filled with explosives. Chris is sent to kill Zoe, but he is instead killed by Todd, who has taken a sniping position outside the school, right before Chris can execute her. Zoe hijacks the livestream, telling Tristan that she is the one people will remember, not him.<br /> <br /> Tristan rigs the van to explode and escapes with a single hostage and an explosive. Zoe removes the van from the cafeteria by putting the shift in reverse and jamming the gas pedal with Chris' rifle; it explodes in the vacant parking lot. Zoe then tries to pursue Tristan, but is mistakenly arrested by SWAT. Outside the school, Zoe meets Sheriff Tarsy, who thanks her for her actions and tells her Tristan died in an explosion. Zoe meets with her father, affirming their love and repairing their relationship. Afterwards, she sees Tristan fleeing into the woods, having faked his own death. Zoe retrieves her father's hunting rifle and shoots Tristan as he retrieves a cache of money and a passport. Standing over him, Zoe lets Tristan bleed out, telling him that it's what he deserves for what he has done.<br /> <br /> ==Cast==<br /> {{cast list|<br /> * [[Thomas Jane]] as Todd Hull<br /> * [[Radha Mitchell]] as Jennifer Hull<br /> * [[Isabel May]] as Zoe Hull<br /> * Eli Brown as Tristan Voy<br /> * Olly Sholotan as Lewis Washington<br /> * [[Treat Williams]] as Sheriff Tarsy<br /> * [[Barbara Crampton]] as Mrs. Crawford<br /> * [[Cyrus Arnold]] as Kip Quade<br /> * Britton Sear as Chris Jelick<br /> * Catherine Davis as Anna Jelick<br /> * [[Cindy Vela]] as Ms. Nunez<br /> * [[Tom Williamson (actor)|Tom Williamson]] as Mr. Coombs<br /> * [[Joel Michaely]] as Mr. Yates<br /> }}<br /> <br /> ==Production==<br /> In December 2019, it was announced [[Thomas Jane]], [[Radha Mitchell]], [[Isabel May]], Eli Brown, Olly Sholotan, [[Treat Williams]], [[Barbara Crampton]], [[Cyrus Arnold]], Britton Sear and Catherine Davis had joined the cast of the film, with [[Kyle Rankin]] directing from a screenplay he wrote, with Rebeller distributing.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|url=https://deadline.com/2019/12/school-shooting-pic-run-hide-fight-shot-secret-night-of-the-living-deb-director-first-release-genre-label-rebeller-1202807607/|title=School Shooting Drama ‘Run Hide Fight’, Made In Secret By ‘Night Of The Living Deb’ Director, To Be First Release From New Genre Label Rebeller|website=[[Deadline Hollywood]]|first=Tom|last=Grater|date=December 17, 2019|accessdate=August 11, 2020}}&lt;/ref&gt;<br /> <br /> ==Release==<br /> The film had its world premiere at the [[Venice Film Festival]] in September 2020.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|url=https://deadline.com/2020/08/venice-film-festival-adds-luca-guadagnino-school-shooting-drama-1203009899/|title=Venice Film Festival Adds Luca Guadagnino Pandemic-Themed Short &amp; School Shooting Thriller ‘Run Hide Fight’|website=Deadline Hollywood|first=Andreas|last=Wiseman|date=August 11, 2020|accessdate=August 11, 2020}}&lt;/ref&gt;<br /> <br /> ''[[The Daily Wire]]'' acquired the North American distribution rights to the film, and it premiered on their platform on January 14, 2021.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|date=2021-01-04|title=WATCH THE TRAILER: The Daily Wire To Premiere First Film on January 14|url=https://www.dailywire.com/news/watch-the-trailer-the-daily-wire-to-premiere-first-film|access-date=2021-01-04|website=The Daily Wire|language=en}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|title=The Daily Wire Makes First Foray Into Film &amp; TV With School Shooting Movie ‘Run Hide Fight’; Right-Wing Site Developing Two TV Series|url=https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/daily-wire-makes-first-foray-140032704.html|access-date=2021-01-04|website=www.yahoo.com|language=en-US}}&lt;/ref&gt;<br /> <br /> ==Reception==<br /> ''Run Hide Fight'' received mainly negative reviews from critics and has a score of 14% on [[Rotten Tomatoes]] based on seven reviews with an average rating of 3.70/10.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |url=https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/run_hide_fight |title=Run Hide Fight (2020) |access-date=January 17, 2021 |work=[[Rotten Tomatoes]] }}&lt;/ref&gt; The film also has a score of 13 out of 100 on [[Metacritic]] based on six critics indicating &quot;overwhelming dislike&quot;.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |url=https://www.metacritic.com/movie/run-hide-fight/critic-reviews |title=Run Hide Fight |access-date=January 17, 2021 |work=[[Metacritic]] }}&lt;/ref&gt;<br /> <br /> Guy Lodge of ''[[Variety (magazine)|Variety]]'' compared the film to a cross between ''[[Elephant (2003 film)|Elephant]]'' and ''[[The Hunger Games (film)|The Hunger Games]]'', but criticized the film for being &quot;merely pedestrian at the levels of direction, craft and performance&quot; and &quot;a grab for attention by peddling an ambiguous line on gun control and eye-for-an-eye morality.&quot;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|url=https://variety.com/2020/film/reviews/run-hide-fight-review-hunters-become-prey-in-a-crass-wildly-misjudged-school-shooting-thriller-1234765063/|title=‘Run Hide Fight’ Review: Hunters Become Prey in a Crass, Wildly Misjudged School-Shooting Thriller|first1=Guy|last1=Lodge|first2=Guy|last2=Lodge|date=September 10, 2020}}&lt;/ref&gt; David Rooney of ''[[The Hollywood Reporter]]'' stated, &quot;But half-hearted posturing aside, this is ''[[Die Hard]]'' in a high school, with a 17-year-old female [[John McClane]] getting motivational input from her dead cancer mom as she dismantles the murderous plot using little more than gut instincts.&quot;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|url=https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/run-hide-fight-film-review-venice-2020|title='Run Hide Fight': Film Review &amp;#124; Venice 2020 &amp;#124; Hollywood Reporter|website=www.hollywoodreporter.com}}&lt;/ref&gt; David Ehrlich of [[IndieWire]] criticized director Rankin for several of the [[trope (cinema)|trope]]s he implemented, stating that the film is a &quot;a glib, artless, and reprehensibly stupid thriller that doesn’t even have enough on its mind to be provocative.&quot;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|url=https://www.indiewire.com/2020/09/run-hide-fight-review-1234585582/|title=‘Run Hide Fight’ Review: Glib Cinestate Thriller Turns a School Shooting into a Clichéd Action Movie|first1=David|last1=Ehrlich|first2=David|last2=Ehrlich|date=September 10, 2020}}&lt;/ref&gt; [[Robbie Collin]] of ''[[The Daily Telegraph|The Telegraph]]'' compared the ringleader of the school shooters to the [[Joker (The Dark Knight)|Joker]] from ''[[The Dark Knight (film)|The Dark Knight]]'' and stated that &quot;May's performance feels as heroic as the character she's playing&quot; but that the film &quot;makes no attempt to grapple with the American school shooting as a [[nihilistic]] cultural phenomenon.&quot;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|url=https://www.telegraph.co.uk/films/2020/09/10/run-hide-fight-reviewvenice-film-festival-high-school-shooting/|title=Run Hide Fight review, Venice Film Festival: high school shooting thriller fatally in thrall to The Dark Knight|first=Robbie|last=Collin|date=September 10, 2020|via=www.telegraph.co.uk}}&lt;/ref&gt;<br /> <br /> ==References==<br /> {{Reflist}}<br /> <br /> ==External links==<br /> * {{IMDb title|11456054}}<br /> * {{Rotten Tomatoes|run_hide_fight}}<br /> <br /> [[Category:2020 films]]<br /> [[Category:2020 action drama films]]<br /> [[Category:American films]]<br /> [[Category:American action drama films]]<br /> [[Category:Films about murderers]]<br /> [[Category:Films about school violence]]<br /> [[Category:Films about mass murder]]<br /> <br /> <br /> {{2020s-drama-film-stub}}</div> Battlefront228 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Run_Hide_Fight&diff=1000898043 Run Hide Fight 2021-01-17T07:41:11Z <p>Battlefront228: /* Plot */</p> <hr /> <div>{{short description|2020 film directed by Kyle Rankin}}<br /> {{Infobox film<br /> | name = Run Hide Fight<br /> | image = <br /> | alt = <br /> | caption = <br /> | director = [[Kyle Rankin]]<br /> | producer = {{Plainlist|<br /> * Amanda Presmyk<br /> * [[Dallas Sonnier]]<br /> }}<br /> | writer = Kyle Rankin<br /> | starring = {{Plainlist|<br /> * [[Thomas Jane]]<br /> * [[Radha Mitchell]]<br /> * [[Isabel May]]<br /> }}<br /> | music = Mondo Boys<br /> | cinematography = Darin Moran<br /> | editing = Matthew Lorentz<br /> | production_companies = [[Cinestate]]<br /> | distributor = [[The Daily Wire]]<br /> | released = {{Film date|2020|09|10|[[Venice Film Festival|Venice]]|ref1=&lt;ref name=venice&gt;{{cite web|url=https://www.labiennale.org/en/cinema/2020/out-competition/run-hide-fight|title=Run Hide Fight|work=Venice Film Fesitval|access-date=August 29, 2020}}&lt;/ref&gt;}}<br /> | runtime = 109 minutes&lt;ref name=venice /&gt;<br /> | country = United States<br /> | language = English<br /> | budget = <br /> | gross = <br /> }}<br /> <br /> '''''Run Hide Fight''''' is a 2020 American [[action thriller film]] written and directed by [[Kyle Rankin]]. Starring [[Thomas Jane]], [[Radha Mitchell]] and [[Isabel May]], it follows a high school sieged by a quartet of [[school shooting|school shooters]].<br /> <br /> The film had its world premiere at the [[Venice Film Festival]] in September 2020.<br /> <br /> ==Plot==<br /> &lt;!-- NOTICE: Plot summaries should be 400-700 words. See WP:FILMPLOT. Do not add unnecessary detail to this section. --&gt;<br /> High school student Zoe Hull struggles to come to grips with the death of her mother, Jennifer, causing her relationship with her father, Todd, to become strained. On the way to school, Zoe witnesses classmate Chris Jelick planting a strange device in a field, but writes it off as a prank. At school, Zoe's best friend Lewis attempts to ask her to [[prom]], but it backfires and Zoe leaves for the bathroom when a drink is spilled on her.<br /> <br /> Around town several incendiary devices are set off, distracting first responders and clogging up the roads. A van crashes into the school cafeteria carrying four school shooters. The leader, Tristan Voy, orders his accomplices Chris Jelick, Anna Jelick and Kip Quade to begin killing students. Lewis, who has access to the school's Facebook page, is tasked with live streaming Tristan. Zoe crawls through the bathroom ceiling and is able to escape the school. She begins warning students and helping them escape.<br /> <br /> Tristan calls the front office to alert them of the shooting. Because school protocol requires that the shooting be confirmed, the school's principal and security guard are sent to the cafeteria to investigate. The principal attempts to talk Tristan down, blaming himself for Tristan's rage. However, Tristan admits his only motivation is to cause mayhem. Tristan kills the principal but allows the unarmed security guard to escape, commenting on how unprepared the guard was for an actual shooting. With the situation finally confirmed, the front office calls a lockdown.<br /> <br /> Sheriff Tarsy attempts to coordinate a response to the shooting, but it proves difficult. An explosion in the front office kills the first police officer to respond. Anna is sent to survey the damage, but along the way she encounters Zoe, and is killed in the resulting fight. A police officer arrives at Tristan's home only to find that he has murdered his mother. The media picks up the livestream, much to Tristan's delight, and he begins removing students from their classrooms where they are sheltered in place.<br /> <br /> Kip encounters Zoe and chases after her, but he is quickly subdued. Handcuffed, Kip admits his motivation for the shooting was retaliation for a bullying incident that occurred in middle school. Zoe points out that Kip has murdered several innocent students who had nothing to do with the incident. Zoe contacts the Sheriff and tells him that he needs to direct the media's cameras away from the school so that she can safely evacuate students. Sheriff Tarsy calls Tristan live on-air to provide cover, but Tristan soon realizes the ruse. Tristan demands Zoe reveal herself to him, threatening to kill hostages every five minutes if she does not.<br /> <br /> Zoe returns to Kip, who expresses remorse for what he has done. As partial atonement for his crimes, Zoe has Kip ambush Tristan, and in the ensuing chaos that leaves Kip dead and Lewis injured, Zoe escapes with Lewis. Zoe settles Lewis and reveals that she reciprocates his feelings for her, but that she has a hard time expressing them. Lewis warns her that the van in the cafeteria is filled with explosives. Chris is sent to kill Zoe, but he is instead killed by Todd, who has taken a sniping position outside the school, right before Chris can execute her. Zoe hijacks the livestream, telling Tristan that she is the one people will remember, not him.<br /> <br /> Tristan rigs the van to explode and escapes with a single hostage and an explosive. Zoe removes the van from the cafeteria by putting the shift in reverse and jamming the gas pedal with Chris' rifle; it explodes in the vacant parking lot. Zoe then tries to pursue Tristan, but is mistakenly arrested by SWAT. Outside the school, Zoe meets Sheriff Tarsy, who thanks her for her actions and tells her Tristan died in an explosion. Zoe meets with her father, repairing their relationship. Afterwards, she sees Tristan fleeing into the woods, having faked his own death. Zoe retrieves her father's hunting rifle and shoots Tristan as he retrieves a cache of money and a passport. Standing over him, Zoe lets Tristan bleed out, telling him that it's what he deserves for what he has done.<br /> <br /> ==Cast==<br /> {{cast list|<br /> * [[Thomas Jane]] as Todd Hull<br /> * [[Radha Mitchell]] as Jennifer Hull<br /> * [[Isabel May]] as Zoe Hull<br /> * Eli Brown as Tristan Voy<br /> * Olly Sholotan as Lewis Washington<br /> * [[Treat Williams]] as Sheriff Tarsy<br /> * [[Barbara Crampton]] as Mrs. Crawford<br /> * [[Cyrus Arnold]] as Kip Quade<br /> * Britton Sear as Chris Jelick<br /> * Catherine Davis as Anna Jelick<br /> * [[Cindy Vela]] as Ms. Nunez<br /> * [[Tom Williamson (actor)|Tom Williamson]] as Mr. Coombs<br /> * [[Joel Michaely]] as Mr. Yates<br /> }}<br /> <br /> ==Production==<br /> In December 2019, it was announced [[Thomas Jane]], [[Radha Mitchell]], [[Isabel May]], Eli Brown, Olly Sholotan, [[Treat Williams]], [[Barbara Crampton]], [[Cyrus Arnold]], Britton Sear and Catherine Davis had joined the cast of the film, with [[Kyle Rankin]] directing from a screenplay he wrote, with Rebeller distributing.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|url=https://deadline.com/2019/12/school-shooting-pic-run-hide-fight-shot-secret-night-of-the-living-deb-director-first-release-genre-label-rebeller-1202807607/|title=School Shooting Drama ‘Run Hide Fight’, Made In Secret By ‘Night Of The Living Deb’ Director, To Be First Release From New Genre Label Rebeller|website=[[Deadline Hollywood]]|first=Tom|last=Grater|date=December 17, 2019|accessdate=August 11, 2020}}&lt;/ref&gt;<br /> <br /> ==Release==<br /> The film had its world premiere at the [[Venice Film Festival]] in September 2020.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|url=https://deadline.com/2020/08/venice-film-festival-adds-luca-guadagnino-school-shooting-drama-1203009899/|title=Venice Film Festival Adds Luca Guadagnino Pandemic-Themed Short &amp; School Shooting Thriller ‘Run Hide Fight’|website=Deadline Hollywood|first=Andreas|last=Wiseman|date=August 11, 2020|accessdate=August 11, 2020}}&lt;/ref&gt;<br /> <br /> ''[[The Daily Wire]]'' acquired the North American distribution rights to the film, and it premiered on their platform on January 14, 2021.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|date=2021-01-04|title=WATCH THE TRAILER: The Daily Wire To Premiere First Film on January 14|url=https://www.dailywire.com/news/watch-the-trailer-the-daily-wire-to-premiere-first-film|access-date=2021-01-04|website=The Daily Wire|language=en}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|title=The Daily Wire Makes First Foray Into Film &amp; TV With School Shooting Movie ‘Run Hide Fight’; Right-Wing Site Developing Two TV Series|url=https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/daily-wire-makes-first-foray-140032704.html|access-date=2021-01-04|website=www.yahoo.com|language=en-US}}&lt;/ref&gt;<br /> <br /> ==Reception==<br /> ''Run Hide Fight'' received mainly negative reviews from critics and has a score of 14% on [[Rotten Tomatoes]] based on seven reviews with an average rating of 3.70/10.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |url=https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/run_hide_fight |title=Run Hide Fight (2020) |access-date=January 17, 2021 |work=[[Rotten Tomatoes]] }}&lt;/ref&gt; The film also has a score of 13 out of 100 on [[Metacritic]] based on six critics indicating &quot;overwhelming dislike&quot;.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |url=https://www.metacritic.com/movie/run-hide-fight/critic-reviews |title=Run Hide Fight |access-date=January 17, 2021 |work=[[Metacritic]] }}&lt;/ref&gt;<br /> <br /> Guy Lodge of ''[[Variety (magazine)|Variety]]'' compared the film to a cross between ''[[Elephant (2003 film)|Elephant]]'' and ''[[The Hunger Games (film)|The Hunger Games]]'', but criticized the film for being &quot;merely pedestrian at the levels of direction, craft and performance&quot; and &quot;a grab for attention by peddling an ambiguous line on gun control and eye-for-an-eye morality.&quot;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|url=https://variety.com/2020/film/reviews/run-hide-fight-review-hunters-become-prey-in-a-crass-wildly-misjudged-school-shooting-thriller-1234765063/|title=‘Run Hide Fight’ Review: Hunters Become Prey in a Crass, Wildly Misjudged School-Shooting Thriller|first1=Guy|last1=Lodge|first2=Guy|last2=Lodge|date=September 10, 2020}}&lt;/ref&gt; David Rooney of ''[[The Hollywood Reporter]]'' stated, &quot;But half-hearted posturing aside, this is ''[[Die Hard]]'' in a high school, with a 17-year-old female [[John McClane]] getting motivational input from her dead cancer mom as she dismantles the murderous plot using little more than gut instincts.&quot;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|url=https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/run-hide-fight-film-review-venice-2020|title='Run Hide Fight': Film Review &amp;#124; Venice 2020 &amp;#124; Hollywood Reporter|website=www.hollywoodreporter.com}}&lt;/ref&gt; David Ehrlich of [[IndieWire]] criticized director Rankin for several of the [[trope (cinema)|trope]]s he implemented, stating that the film is a &quot;a glib, artless, and reprehensibly stupid thriller that doesn’t even have enough on its mind to be provocative.&quot;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|url=https://www.indiewire.com/2020/09/run-hide-fight-review-1234585582/|title=‘Run Hide Fight’ Review: Glib Cinestate Thriller Turns a School Shooting into a Clichéd Action Movie|first1=David|last1=Ehrlich|first2=David|last2=Ehrlich|date=September 10, 2020}}&lt;/ref&gt; [[Robbie Collin]] of ''[[The Daily Telegraph|The Telegraph]]'' compared the ringleader of the school shooters to the [[Joker (The Dark Knight)|Joker]] from ''[[The Dark Knight (film)|The Dark Knight]]'' and stated that &quot;May's performance feels as heroic as the character she's playing&quot; but that the film &quot;makes no attempt to grapple with the American school shooting as a [[nihilistic]] cultural phenomenon.&quot;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|url=https://www.telegraph.co.uk/films/2020/09/10/run-hide-fight-reviewvenice-film-festival-high-school-shooting/|title=Run Hide Fight review, Venice Film Festival: high school shooting thriller fatally in thrall to The Dark Knight|first=Robbie|last=Collin|date=September 10, 2020|via=www.telegraph.co.uk}}&lt;/ref&gt;<br /> <br /> ==References==<br /> {{Reflist}}<br /> <br /> ==External links==<br /> * {{IMDb title|11456054}}<br /> * {{Rotten Tomatoes|run_hide_fight}}<br /> <br /> [[Category:2020 films]]<br /> [[Category:2020 action drama films]]<br /> [[Category:American films]]<br /> [[Category:American action drama films]]<br /> [[Category:Films about murderers]]<br /> [[Category:Films about school violence]]<br /> [[Category:Films about mass murder]]<br /> <br /> <br /> {{2020s-drama-film-stub}}</div> Battlefront228 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Run_Hide_Fight&diff=1000897583 Run Hide Fight 2021-01-17T07:36:46Z <p>Battlefront228: /* Plot */</p> <hr /> <div>{{short description|2020 film directed by Kyle Rankin}}<br /> {{Infobox film<br /> | name = Run Hide Fight<br /> | image = <br /> | alt = <br /> | caption = <br /> | director = [[Kyle Rankin]]<br /> | producer = {{Plainlist|<br /> * Amanda Presmyk<br /> * [[Dallas Sonnier]]<br /> }}<br /> | writer = Kyle Rankin<br /> | starring = {{Plainlist|<br /> * [[Thomas Jane]]<br /> * [[Radha Mitchell]]<br /> * [[Isabel May]]<br /> }}<br /> | music = Mondo Boys<br /> | cinematography = Darin Moran<br /> | editing = Matthew Lorentz<br /> | production_companies = [[Cinestate]]<br /> | distributor = [[The Daily Wire]]<br /> | released = {{Film date|2020|09|10|[[Venice Film Festival|Venice]]|ref1=&lt;ref name=venice&gt;{{cite web|url=https://www.labiennale.org/en/cinema/2020/out-competition/run-hide-fight|title=Run Hide Fight|work=Venice Film Fesitval|access-date=August 29, 2020}}&lt;/ref&gt;}}<br /> | runtime = 109 minutes&lt;ref name=venice /&gt;<br /> | country = United States<br /> | language = English<br /> | budget = <br /> | gross = <br /> }}<br /> <br /> '''''Run Hide Fight''''' is a 2020 American [[action thriller film]] written and directed by [[Kyle Rankin]]. Starring [[Thomas Jane]], [[Radha Mitchell]] and [[Isabel May]], it follows a high school sieged by a quartet of [[school shooting|school shooters]].<br /> <br /> The film had its world premiere at the [[Venice Film Festival]] in September 2020.<br /> <br /> ==Plot==<br /> &lt;!-- NOTICE: Plot summaries should be 400-700 words. See WP:FILMPLOT. Do not add unnecessary detail to this section. --&gt;<br /> High school student Zoe Hull struggles to come to grips with the death of her mother, Jennifer, causing her relationship with her father, Todd, to become strained. On the way to school, Zoe witnesses classmate Chris Jelick planting a strange device in a field, but writes it off as a prank. At school, Zoe's best friend Lewis attempts to ask her to [[prom]], but it backfires and Zoe leaves for the bathroom when a drink is spilled on her.<br /> <br /> Around town several incendiary devices are set off, distracting first responders and clogging up the roads. A van crashes into the school cafeteria carrying four school shooters. The leader, Tristan Voy, orders his accomplices Chris Jelick, Anna Jelick and Kip Quade to begin killing students. Lewis, who has access to the school's Facebook page, is tasked with live streaming Tristan. Zoe crawls through the bathroom ceiling and is able to escape the school. She begins warning students and helping them escape.<br /> <br /> Tristan calls the front office to alert them of the shooting. Because school protocol requires that the shooting be confirmed, the school's principal and security guard are sent to the cafeteria to investigate. The principal attempts to talk Tristan down, blaming himself for Tristan's rage. However, Tristan admits his only motivation is to cause mayhem. Tristan kills the principal but allows the unarmed security guard to escape, commenting on how unprepared the guard was for an actual shooting. With the situation finally confirmed, the front office calls a lockdown.<br /> <br /> Sheriff Tarsy attempts to coordinate a response to the shooting, but it proves difficult. An explosion in the front office kills the first police officer to respond. Anna is sent to survey the damage, but along the way she encounters Zoe, and is killed in the resulting fight. A police officer arrives at Tristan's home only to find that he has murdered his mother. The media picks up the livestream, much to Tristan's delight, and he begins removing students from their classrooms where they are sheltered in place.<br /> <br /> Kip encounters Zoe and chases after her, but he is quickly subdued. Handcuffed, Kip admits his motivation for the shooting was retaliation for a bullying incident that occurred in middle school. Zoe points out that Kip has murdered several innocent students who had nothing to do with the incident. Zoe contacts the Sheriff and tells him that he needs to direct the media's cameras away from the school so that she can safely evacuate students. Sheriff Tarsy calls Tristan live on-air to provide cover, but Tristan soon realizes the ruse. Tristan demands Zoe reveal herself to him, threatening to kill hostages every five minutes if she does not.<br /> <br /> Zoe returns to Kip, who expresses remorse for what he has done. As partial atonement for his crimes, Zoe has Kip ambush Tristan, and in the ensuing chaos that leaves Kip dead and Lewis injured, Zoe escapes with Lewis. Zoe settles Lewis and reveals that she reciprocates his feelings for her, but that she has a hard time expressing them. Lewis warns her that the van in the cafeteria is filled with explosives. Chris is sent to kill Zoe, but he is instead killed by Todd who has taken a sniping position outside the school right before Chris can execute her. Zoe hijacks the livestream, telling Tristan that she is the one people will remember, not him.<br /> <br /> Tristan rigs the van to explode and escapes with a single hostage and an explosive. Zoe removes the van from the cafeteria by putting the shift in reverse and jamming the gas pedal with Chris' rifle; it explodes in the vacant parking lot. Zoe then tries to pursue Tristan, but is mistakenly arrested by SWAT. Outside the school, Zoe meets Sheriff Tarsy, who thanks her for her actions and tells her Tristan died in an explosion. Zoe meets with her father, repairing their relationship. Afterwards, she sees Tristan fleeing into the woods, having faked his own death. Zoe retrieves her father's hunting rifle and shoots Tristan as he retrieves a cache of money and a passport. Standing over him, Zoe lets Tristan bleed out, telling him that it's what he deserves for what he has done.<br /> <br /> ==Cast==<br /> {{cast list|<br /> * [[Thomas Jane]] as Todd Hull<br /> * [[Radha Mitchell]] as Jennifer Hull<br /> * [[Isabel May]] as Zoe Hull<br /> * Eli Brown as Tristan Voy<br /> * Olly Sholotan as Lewis Washington<br /> * [[Treat Williams]] as Sheriff Tarsy<br /> * [[Barbara Crampton]] as Mrs. Crawford<br /> * [[Cyrus Arnold]] as Kip Quade<br /> * Britton Sear as Chris Jelick<br /> * Catherine Davis as Anna Jelick<br /> * [[Cindy Vela]] as Ms. Nunez<br /> * [[Tom Williamson (actor)|Tom Williamson]] as Mr. Coombs<br /> * [[Joel Michaely]] as Mr. Yates<br /> }}<br /> <br /> ==Production==<br /> In December 2019, it was announced [[Thomas Jane]], [[Radha Mitchell]], [[Isabel May]], Eli Brown, Olly Sholotan, [[Treat Williams]], [[Barbara Crampton]], [[Cyrus Arnold]], Britton Sear and Catherine Davis had joined the cast of the film, with [[Kyle Rankin]] directing from a screenplay he wrote, with Rebeller distributing.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|url=https://deadline.com/2019/12/school-shooting-pic-run-hide-fight-shot-secret-night-of-the-living-deb-director-first-release-genre-label-rebeller-1202807607/|title=School Shooting Drama ‘Run Hide Fight’, Made In Secret By ‘Night Of The Living Deb’ Director, To Be First Release From New Genre Label Rebeller|website=[[Deadline Hollywood]]|first=Tom|last=Grater|date=December 17, 2019|accessdate=August 11, 2020}}&lt;/ref&gt;<br /> <br /> ==Release==<br /> The film had its world premiere at the [[Venice Film Festival]] in September 2020.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|url=https://deadline.com/2020/08/venice-film-festival-adds-luca-guadagnino-school-shooting-drama-1203009899/|title=Venice Film Festival Adds Luca Guadagnino Pandemic-Themed Short &amp; School Shooting Thriller ‘Run Hide Fight’|website=Deadline Hollywood|first=Andreas|last=Wiseman|date=August 11, 2020|accessdate=August 11, 2020}}&lt;/ref&gt;<br /> <br /> ''[[The Daily Wire]]'' acquired the North American distribution rights to the film, and it premiered on their platform on January 14, 2021.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|date=2021-01-04|title=WATCH THE TRAILER: The Daily Wire To Premiere First Film on January 14|url=https://www.dailywire.com/news/watch-the-trailer-the-daily-wire-to-premiere-first-film|access-date=2021-01-04|website=The Daily Wire|language=en}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|title=The Daily Wire Makes First Foray Into Film &amp; TV With School Shooting Movie ‘Run Hide Fight’; Right-Wing Site Developing Two TV Series|url=https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/daily-wire-makes-first-foray-140032704.html|access-date=2021-01-04|website=www.yahoo.com|language=en-US}}&lt;/ref&gt;<br /> <br /> ==Reception==<br /> ''Run Hide Fight'' received mainly negative reviews from critics and has a score of 14% on [[Rotten Tomatoes]] based on seven reviews with an average rating of 3.70/10.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |url=https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/run_hide_fight |title=Run Hide Fight (2020) |access-date=January 17, 2021 |work=[[Rotten Tomatoes]] }}&lt;/ref&gt; The film also has a score of 13 out of 100 on [[Metacritic]] based on six critics indicating &quot;overwhelming dislike&quot;.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |url=https://www.metacritic.com/movie/run-hide-fight/critic-reviews |title=Run Hide Fight |access-date=January 17, 2021 |work=[[Metacritic]] }}&lt;/ref&gt;<br /> <br /> Guy Lodge of ''[[Variety (magazine)|Variety]]'' compared the film to a cross between ''[[Elephant (2003 film)|Elephant]]'' and ''[[The Hunger Games (film)|The Hunger Games]]'', but criticized the film for being &quot;merely pedestrian at the levels of direction, craft and performance&quot; and &quot;a grab for attention by peddling an ambiguous line on gun control and eye-for-an-eye morality.&quot;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|url=https://variety.com/2020/film/reviews/run-hide-fight-review-hunters-become-prey-in-a-crass-wildly-misjudged-school-shooting-thriller-1234765063/|title=‘Run Hide Fight’ Review: Hunters Become Prey in a Crass, Wildly Misjudged School-Shooting Thriller|first1=Guy|last1=Lodge|first2=Guy|last2=Lodge|date=September 10, 2020}}&lt;/ref&gt; David Rooney of ''[[The Hollywood Reporter]]'' stated, &quot;But half-hearted posturing aside, this is ''[[Die Hard]]'' in a high school, with a 17-year-old female [[John McClane]] getting motivational input from her dead cancer mom as she dismantles the murderous plot using little more than gut instincts.&quot;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|url=https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/run-hide-fight-film-review-venice-2020|title='Run Hide Fight': Film Review &amp;#124; Venice 2020 &amp;#124; Hollywood Reporter|website=www.hollywoodreporter.com}}&lt;/ref&gt; David Ehrlich of [[IndieWire]] criticized director Rankin for several of the [[trope (cinema)|trope]]s he implemented, stating that the film is a &quot;a glib, artless, and reprehensibly stupid thriller that doesn’t even have enough on its mind to be provocative.&quot;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|url=https://www.indiewire.com/2020/09/run-hide-fight-review-1234585582/|title=‘Run Hide Fight’ Review: Glib Cinestate Thriller Turns a School Shooting into a Clichéd Action Movie|first1=David|last1=Ehrlich|first2=David|last2=Ehrlich|date=September 10, 2020}}&lt;/ref&gt; [[Robbie Collin]] of ''[[The Daily Telegraph|The Telegraph]]'' compared the ringleader of the school shooters to the [[Joker (The Dark Knight)|Joker]] from ''[[The Dark Knight (film)|The Dark Knight]]'' and stated that &quot;May's performance feels as heroic as the character she's playing&quot; but that the film &quot;makes no attempt to grapple with the American school shooting as a [[nihilistic]] cultural phenomenon.&quot;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|url=https://www.telegraph.co.uk/films/2020/09/10/run-hide-fight-reviewvenice-film-festival-high-school-shooting/|title=Run Hide Fight review, Venice Film Festival: high school shooting thriller fatally in thrall to The Dark Knight|first=Robbie|last=Collin|date=September 10, 2020|via=www.telegraph.co.uk}}&lt;/ref&gt;<br /> <br /> ==References==<br /> {{Reflist}}<br /> <br /> ==External links==<br /> * {{IMDb title|11456054}}<br /> * {{Rotten Tomatoes|run_hide_fight}}<br /> <br /> [[Category:2020 films]]<br /> [[Category:2020 action drama films]]<br /> [[Category:American films]]<br /> [[Category:American action drama films]]<br /> [[Category:Films about murderers]]<br /> [[Category:Films about school violence]]<br /> [[Category:Films about mass murder]]<br /> <br /> <br /> {{2020s-drama-film-stub}}</div> Battlefront228 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Run_Hide_Fight&diff=1000897498 Run Hide Fight 2021-01-17T07:35:53Z <p>Battlefront228: /* Plot */ Gotta mention the repairing of the relationship as that completes her character arc</p> <hr /> <div>{{short description|2020 film directed by Kyle Rankin}}<br /> {{Infobox film<br /> | name = Run Hide Fight<br /> | image = <br /> | alt = <br /> | caption = <br /> | director = [[Kyle Rankin]]<br /> | producer = {{Plainlist|<br /> * Amanda Presmyk<br /> * [[Dallas Sonnier]]<br /> }}<br /> | writer = Kyle Rankin<br /> | starring = {{Plainlist|<br /> * [[Thomas Jane]]<br /> * [[Radha Mitchell]]<br /> * [[Isabel May]]<br /> }}<br /> | music = Mondo Boys<br /> | cinematography = Darin Moran<br /> | editing = Matthew Lorentz<br /> | production_companies = [[Cinestate]]<br /> | distributor = [[The Daily Wire]]<br /> | released = {{Film date|2020|09|10|[[Venice Film Festival|Venice]]|ref1=&lt;ref name=venice&gt;{{cite web|url=https://www.labiennale.org/en/cinema/2020/out-competition/run-hide-fight|title=Run Hide Fight|work=Venice Film Fesitval|access-date=August 29, 2020}}&lt;/ref&gt;}}<br /> | runtime = 109 minutes&lt;ref name=venice /&gt;<br /> | country = United States<br /> | language = English<br /> | budget = <br /> | gross = <br /> }}<br /> <br /> '''''Run Hide Fight''''' is a 2020 American [[action thriller film]] written and directed by [[Kyle Rankin]]. Starring [[Thomas Jane]], [[Radha Mitchell]] and [[Isabel May]], it follows a high school sieged by a quartet of [[school shooting|school shooters]].<br /> <br /> The film had its world premiere at the [[Venice Film Festival]] in September 2020.<br /> <br /> ==Plot==<br /> &lt;!-- NOTICE: Plot summaries should be 400-700 words. See WP:FILMPLOT. Do not add unnecessary detail to this section. --&gt;<br /> High school student Zoe Hull struggles to come to grips with the death of her mother, Jennifer, causing her relationship with her father, Todd, to become strained. On the way to school, Zoe witnesses classmate Chris Jelick planting a strange device in a field, but writes it off as a prank. At school, Zoe's best friend Lewis attempts to ask her to [[prom]], but it backfires and Zoe leaves for the bathroom when a drink is spilled on her.<br /> <br /> Around town several incendiary devices are set off, distracting first responders and clogging up the roads. A van crashes into the school cafeteria carrying four school shooters. The leader, Tristan Voy, orders his accomplices Chris Jelick, Anna Jelick and Kip Quade to begin killing students. Lewis, who has access to the school's Facebook page, is tasked with live streaming Tristan. Zoe crawls through the bathroom ceiling and is able to escape the school. She begins warning students and helping them escape.<br /> <br /> Tristan calls the front office to alert them of the shooting. Because school protocol requires that the shooting be confirmed, the school's principal and security guard are sent to the cafeteria to investigate. The principal attempts to talk Tristan down, blaming himself for Tristan's rage. However, Tristan admits his only motivation is to cause mayhem. Tristan kills the principal but allows the unarmed security guard to escape, commenting on how unprepared the guard was for an actual shooting. With the situation finally confirmed, the front office calls a lockdown.<br /> <br /> Sheriff Tarsy attempts to coordinate a response to the shooting, but it proves difficult. An explosion in the front office kills the first police officer to respond. Anna is sent to survey the damage, but along the way she encounters Zoe, and is killed in the resulting fight. A police officer arrives at Tristan's home only to find that he has murdered his mother. The media picks up the livestream, much to Tristan's delight, and he begins removing students from their classrooms where they are sheltered in place.<br /> <br /> Kip encounters Zoe and chases after her, but he is quickly subdued. Handcuffed, Kip admits his motivation for the shooting was retaliation for a bullying incident that occurred in middle school. Zoe points out that Kip has murdered several innocent students who had nothing to do with the incident. Zoe contacts the Sheriff and tells him that he needs to direct the media's cameras away from the school so that she can safely evacuate students. Sheriff Tarsy calls Tristan live on-air to provide cover, but Tristan soon realizes the ruse. Tristan demands Zoe reveal herself to him, threatening to kill hostages every five minutes if she does not.<br /> <br /> Zoe returns to Kip, who expresses remorse for what he has done. As partial atonement for his crimes, Zoe has Kip ambush Tristan, and in the ensuing chaos that leaves Kip dead and Lewis injured, Zoe escapes with Lewis. Zoe settles Lewis and reveals that she reciprocates his feelings for her, but that she has a hard time expressing them. Lewis warns her that the van in the cafeteria is filled with explosives. Chris is sent to kill Zoe, but he is instead killed by Todd who has taken a sniping position outside the school right before Chris can execute her. Zoe hijacks the livestream, telling Tristan that she is the one people will remember, not him.<br /> <br /> Tristan rigs the van to explode and escapes with a single hostage and an explosive. Zoe removes the van from the cafeteria by putting the shift in reverse and jamming the gas pedal with Chris' rifle; it explodes in the vacant parking lot. Zoe then tries to pursue Tristan, but is mistakenly arrested by SWAT. Outside the school, Zoe meets Sheriff Tarsy, who thanks her for her actions and tells her Tristan died in an explosion. Zoe meets with her father, repairing their relationship, but she sees Tristan fleeing into the woods, having faked his own death. Zoe retrieves her father's hunting rifle and shoots Tristan as he retrieves a cache of money and a passport. Standing over him, Zoe lets Tristan bleed out, telling him that it's what he deserves for what he has done.<br /> <br /> ==Cast==<br /> {{cast list|<br /> * [[Thomas Jane]] as Todd Hull<br /> * [[Radha Mitchell]] as Jennifer Hull<br /> * [[Isabel May]] as Zoe Hull<br /> * Eli Brown as Tristan Voy<br /> * Olly Sholotan as Lewis Washington<br /> * [[Treat Williams]] as Sheriff Tarsy<br /> * [[Barbara Crampton]] as Mrs. Crawford<br /> * [[Cyrus Arnold]] as Kip Quade<br /> * Britton Sear as Chris Jelick<br /> * Catherine Davis as Anna Jelick<br /> * [[Cindy Vela]] as Ms. Nunez<br /> * [[Tom Williamson (actor)|Tom Williamson]] as Mr. Coombs<br /> * [[Joel Michaely]] as Mr. Yates<br /> }}<br /> <br /> ==Production==<br /> In December 2019, it was announced [[Thomas Jane]], [[Radha Mitchell]], [[Isabel May]], Eli Brown, Olly Sholotan, [[Treat Williams]], [[Barbara Crampton]], [[Cyrus Arnold]], Britton Sear and Catherine Davis had joined the cast of the film, with [[Kyle Rankin]] directing from a screenplay he wrote, with Rebeller distributing.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|url=https://deadline.com/2019/12/school-shooting-pic-run-hide-fight-shot-secret-night-of-the-living-deb-director-first-release-genre-label-rebeller-1202807607/|title=School Shooting Drama ‘Run Hide Fight’, Made In Secret By ‘Night Of The Living Deb’ Director, To Be First Release From New Genre Label Rebeller|website=[[Deadline Hollywood]]|first=Tom|last=Grater|date=December 17, 2019|accessdate=August 11, 2020}}&lt;/ref&gt;<br /> <br /> ==Release==<br /> The film had its world premiere at the [[Venice Film Festival]] in September 2020.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|url=https://deadline.com/2020/08/venice-film-festival-adds-luca-guadagnino-school-shooting-drama-1203009899/|title=Venice Film Festival Adds Luca Guadagnino Pandemic-Themed Short &amp; School Shooting Thriller ‘Run Hide Fight’|website=Deadline Hollywood|first=Andreas|last=Wiseman|date=August 11, 2020|accessdate=August 11, 2020}}&lt;/ref&gt;<br /> <br /> ''[[The Daily Wire]]'' acquired the North American distribution rights to the film, and it premiered on their platform on January 14, 2021.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|date=2021-01-04|title=WATCH THE TRAILER: The Daily Wire To Premiere First Film on January 14|url=https://www.dailywire.com/news/watch-the-trailer-the-daily-wire-to-premiere-first-film|access-date=2021-01-04|website=The Daily Wire|language=en}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|title=The Daily Wire Makes First Foray Into Film &amp; TV With School Shooting Movie ‘Run Hide Fight’; Right-Wing Site Developing Two TV Series|url=https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/daily-wire-makes-first-foray-140032704.html|access-date=2021-01-04|website=www.yahoo.com|language=en-US}}&lt;/ref&gt;<br /> <br /> ==Reception==<br /> ''Run Hide Fight'' received mainly negative reviews from critics and has a score of 14% on [[Rotten Tomatoes]] based on seven reviews with an average rating of 3.70/10.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |url=https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/run_hide_fight |title=Run Hide Fight (2020) |access-date=January 17, 2021 |work=[[Rotten Tomatoes]] }}&lt;/ref&gt; The film also has a score of 13 out of 100 on [[Metacritic]] based on six critics indicating &quot;overwhelming dislike&quot;.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |url=https://www.metacritic.com/movie/run-hide-fight/critic-reviews |title=Run Hide Fight |access-date=January 17, 2021 |work=[[Metacritic]] }}&lt;/ref&gt;<br /> <br /> Guy Lodge of ''[[Variety (magazine)|Variety]]'' compared the film to a cross between ''[[Elephant (2003 film)|Elephant]]'' and ''[[The Hunger Games (film)|The Hunger Games]]'', but criticized the film for being &quot;merely pedestrian at the levels of direction, craft and performance&quot; and &quot;a grab for attention by peddling an ambiguous line on gun control and eye-for-an-eye morality.&quot;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|url=https://variety.com/2020/film/reviews/run-hide-fight-review-hunters-become-prey-in-a-crass-wildly-misjudged-school-shooting-thriller-1234765063/|title=‘Run Hide Fight’ Review: Hunters Become Prey in a Crass, Wildly Misjudged School-Shooting Thriller|first1=Guy|last1=Lodge|first2=Guy|last2=Lodge|date=September 10, 2020}}&lt;/ref&gt; David Rooney of ''[[The Hollywood Reporter]]'' stated, &quot;But half-hearted posturing aside, this is ''[[Die Hard]]'' in a high school, with a 17-year-old female [[John McClane]] getting motivational input from her dead cancer mom as she dismantles the murderous plot using little more than gut instincts.&quot;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|url=https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/run-hide-fight-film-review-venice-2020|title='Run Hide Fight': Film Review &amp;#124; Venice 2020 &amp;#124; Hollywood Reporter|website=www.hollywoodreporter.com}}&lt;/ref&gt; David Ehrlich of [[IndieWire]] criticized director Rankin for several of the [[trope (cinema)|trope]]s he implemented, stating that the film is a &quot;a glib, artless, and reprehensibly stupid thriller that doesn’t even have enough on its mind to be provocative.&quot;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|url=https://www.indiewire.com/2020/09/run-hide-fight-review-1234585582/|title=‘Run Hide Fight’ Review: Glib Cinestate Thriller Turns a School Shooting into a Clichéd Action Movie|first1=David|last1=Ehrlich|first2=David|last2=Ehrlich|date=September 10, 2020}}&lt;/ref&gt; [[Robbie Collin]] of ''[[The Daily Telegraph|The Telegraph]]'' compared the ringleader of the school shooters to the [[Joker (The Dark Knight)|Joker]] from ''[[The Dark Knight (film)|The Dark Knight]]'' and stated that &quot;May's performance feels as heroic as the character she's playing&quot; but that the film &quot;makes no attempt to grapple with the American school shooting as a [[nihilistic]] cultural phenomenon.&quot;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|url=https://www.telegraph.co.uk/films/2020/09/10/run-hide-fight-reviewvenice-film-festival-high-school-shooting/|title=Run Hide Fight review, Venice Film Festival: high school shooting thriller fatally in thrall to The Dark Knight|first=Robbie|last=Collin|date=September 10, 2020|via=www.telegraph.co.uk}}&lt;/ref&gt;<br /> <br /> ==References==<br /> {{Reflist}}<br /> <br /> ==External links==<br /> * {{IMDb title|11456054}}<br /> * {{Rotten Tomatoes|run_hide_fight}}<br /> <br /> [[Category:2020 films]]<br /> [[Category:2020 action drama films]]<br /> [[Category:American films]]<br /> [[Category:American action drama films]]<br /> [[Category:Films about murderers]]<br /> [[Category:Films about school violence]]<br /> [[Category:Films about mass murder]]<br /> <br /> <br /> {{2020s-drama-film-stub}}</div> Battlefront228 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Run_Hide_Fight&diff=1000897001 Run Hide Fight 2021-01-17T07:31:09Z <p>Battlefront228: /* Plot */</p> <hr /> <div>{{short description|2020 film directed by Kyle Rankin}}<br /> {{Infobox film<br /> | name = Run Hide Fight<br /> | image = <br /> | alt = <br /> | caption = <br /> | director = [[Kyle Rankin]]<br /> | producer = {{Plainlist|<br /> * Amanda Presmyk<br /> * [[Dallas Sonnier]]<br /> }}<br /> | writer = Kyle Rankin<br /> | starring = {{Plainlist|<br /> * [[Thomas Jane]]<br /> * [[Radha Mitchell]]<br /> * [[Isabel May]]<br /> }}<br /> | music = Mondo Boys<br /> | cinematography = Darin Moran<br /> | editing = Matthew Lorentz<br /> | production_companies = [[Cinestate]]<br /> | distributor = [[The Daily Wire]]<br /> | released = {{Film date|2020|09|10|[[Venice Film Festival|Venice]]|ref1=&lt;ref name=venice&gt;{{cite web|url=https://www.labiennale.org/en/cinema/2020/out-competition/run-hide-fight|title=Run Hide Fight|work=Venice Film Fesitval|access-date=August 29, 2020}}&lt;/ref&gt;}}<br /> | runtime = 109 minutes&lt;ref name=venice /&gt;<br /> | country = United States<br /> | language = English<br /> | budget = <br /> | gross = <br /> }}<br /> <br /> '''''Run Hide Fight''''' is a 2020 American [[action thriller film]] written and directed by [[Kyle Rankin]]. Starring [[Thomas Jane]], [[Radha Mitchell]] and [[Isabel May]], it follows a high school sieged by a quartet of [[school shooting|school shooters]].<br /> <br /> The film had its world premiere at the [[Venice Film Festival]] in September 2020.<br /> <br /> ==Plot==<br /> &lt;!-- NOTICE: Plot summaries should be 400-700 words. See WP:FILMPLOT. Do not add unnecessary detail to this section. --&gt;<br /> High school student Zoe Hull struggles to come to grips with the death of her mother, Jennifer, causing her relationship with her father, Todd, to become strained. On the way to school, Zoe witnesses classmate Chris Jelick planting a strange device in a field, but writes it off as a prank. At school, Zoe's best friend Lewis attempts to ask her to [[prom]], but it backfires and Zoe leaves for the bathroom when a drink is spilled on her.<br /> <br /> Around town several incendiary devices are set off, distracting first responders and clogging up the roads. A van crashes into the school cafeteria carrying four school shooters. The leader, Tristan Voy, orders his accomplices Chris Jelick, Anna Jelick and Kip Quade to begin killing students. Lewis, who has access to the school's Facebook page, is tasked with live streaming Tristan. Zoe crawls through the bathroom ceiling and is able to escape the school. She begins warning students and helping them escape.<br /> <br /> Tristan calls the front office to alert them of the shooting. Because school protocol requires that the shooting be confirmed, the school's principal and security guard are sent to the cafeteria to investigate. The principal attempts to talk Tristan down, blaming himself for Tristan's rage. However, Tristan admits his only motivation is to cause mayhem. Tristan kills the principal but allows the unarmed security guard to escape, commenting on how unprepared the guard was for an actual shooting. With the situation finally confirmed, the front office calls a lockdown.<br /> <br /> Sheriff Tarsy attempts to coordinate a response to the shooting, but it proves difficult. An explosion in the front office kills the first police officer to respond. Anna is sent to survey the damage, but along the way she encounters Zoe, and is killed in the resulting fight. A police officer arrives at Tristan's home only to find that he has murdered his mother. The media picks up the livestream, much to Tristan's delight, and he begins removing students from their classrooms where they are sheltered in place.<br /> <br /> Kip encounters Zoe and chases after her, but he is quickly subdued. Handcuffed, Kip admits his motivation for the shooting was retaliation for a bullying incident that occurred in middle school. Zoe points out that Kip has murdered several innocent students who had nothing to do with the incident. Zoe contacts the Sheriff and tells him that he needs to direct the media's cameras away from the school so that she can safely evacuate students. Sheriff Tarsy calls Tristan live on-air to provide cover, but Tristan soon realizes the ruse. Tristan demands Zoe reveal herself to him, threatening to kill hostages every five minutes if she does not.<br /> <br /> Zoe returns to Kip, who expresses remorse for what he has done. As partial atonement for his crimes, Zoe has Kip ambush Tristan, and in the ensuing chaos that leaves Kip dead and Lewis injured, Zoe escapes with Lewis. Zoe settles Lewis and reveals that she reciprocates his feelings for her, but that she has a hard time expressing them. Lewis warns her that the van in the cafeteria is filled with explosives. Chris is sent to kill Zoe, but he is instead killed by Todd who has taken a sniping position outside the school right before Chris can execute her. Zoe hijacks the livestream, telling Tristan that she is the one people will remember, not him.<br /> <br /> Tristan rigs the van to explode and escapes with a single hostage and an explosive. Zoe removes the van from the cafeteria by putting the shift in reverse and jamming the gas pedal with Chris' rifle; it explodes in the vacant parking lot. Zoe then tries to pursue Tristan, but is mistakenly arrested by SWAT. Outside the school, Zoe meets Sheriff Tarsy, who thanks her for her actions and tells her Tristan died in an explosion. Zoe meets with her father, but she sees Tristan fleeing into the woods, having faked his own death. Zoe retrieves her father's hunting rifle and shoots Tristan as he retrieves a cache of money and a passport. Standing over him, Zoe lets Tristan bleed out, telling him that it's what he deserves for what he has done.<br /> <br /> ==Cast==<br /> {{cast list|<br /> * [[Thomas Jane]] as Todd Hull<br /> * [[Radha Mitchell]] as Jennifer Hull<br /> * [[Isabel May]] as Zoe Hull<br /> * Eli Brown as Tristan Voy<br /> * Olly Sholotan as Lewis Washington<br /> * [[Treat Williams]] as Sheriff Tarsy<br /> * [[Barbara Crampton]] as Mrs. Crawford<br /> * [[Cyrus Arnold]] as Kip Quade<br /> * Britton Sear as Chris Jelick<br /> * Catherine Davis as Anna Jelick<br /> * [[Cindy Vela]] as Ms. Nunez<br /> * [[Tom Williamson (actor)|Tom Williamson]] as Mr. Coombs<br /> * [[Joel Michaely]] as Mr. Yates<br /> }}<br /> <br /> ==Production==<br /> In December 2019, it was announced [[Thomas Jane]], [[Radha Mitchell]], [[Isabel May]], Eli Brown, Olly Sholotan, [[Treat Williams]], [[Barbara Crampton]], [[Cyrus Arnold]], Britton Sear and Catherine Davis had joined the cast of the film, with [[Kyle Rankin]] directing from a screenplay he wrote, with Rebeller distributing.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|url=https://deadline.com/2019/12/school-shooting-pic-run-hide-fight-shot-secret-night-of-the-living-deb-director-first-release-genre-label-rebeller-1202807607/|title=School Shooting Drama ‘Run Hide Fight’, Made In Secret By ‘Night Of The Living Deb’ Director, To Be First Release From New Genre Label Rebeller|website=[[Deadline Hollywood]]|first=Tom|last=Grater|date=December 17, 2019|accessdate=August 11, 2020}}&lt;/ref&gt;<br /> <br /> ==Release==<br /> The film had its world premiere at the [[Venice Film Festival]] in September 2020.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|url=https://deadline.com/2020/08/venice-film-festival-adds-luca-guadagnino-school-shooting-drama-1203009899/|title=Venice Film Festival Adds Luca Guadagnino Pandemic-Themed Short &amp; School Shooting Thriller ‘Run Hide Fight’|website=Deadline Hollywood|first=Andreas|last=Wiseman|date=August 11, 2020|accessdate=August 11, 2020}}&lt;/ref&gt;<br /> <br /> ''[[The Daily Wire]]'' acquired the North American distribution rights to the film, and it premiered on their platform on January 14, 2021.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|date=2021-01-04|title=WATCH THE TRAILER: The Daily Wire To Premiere First Film on January 14|url=https://www.dailywire.com/news/watch-the-trailer-the-daily-wire-to-premiere-first-film|access-date=2021-01-04|website=The Daily Wire|language=en}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|title=The Daily Wire Makes First Foray Into Film &amp; TV With School Shooting Movie ‘Run Hide Fight’; Right-Wing Site Developing Two TV Series|url=https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/daily-wire-makes-first-foray-140032704.html|access-date=2021-01-04|website=www.yahoo.com|language=en-US}}&lt;/ref&gt;<br /> <br /> ==Reception==<br /> ''Run Hide Fight'' received mainly negative reviews from critics and has a score of 14% on [[Rotten Tomatoes]] based on seven reviews with an average rating of 3.70/10.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |url=https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/run_hide_fight |title=Run Hide Fight (2020) |access-date=January 17, 2021 |work=[[Rotten Tomatoes]] }}&lt;/ref&gt; The film also has a score of 13 out of 100 on [[Metacritic]] based on six critics indicating &quot;overwhelming dislike&quot;.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |url=https://www.metacritic.com/movie/run-hide-fight/critic-reviews |title=Run Hide Fight |access-date=January 17, 2021 |work=[[Metacritic]] }}&lt;/ref&gt;<br /> <br /> Guy Lodge of ''[[Variety (magazine)|Variety]]'' compared the film to a cross between ''[[Elephant (2003 film)|Elephant]]'' and ''[[The Hunger Games (film)|The Hunger Games]]'', but criticized the film for being &quot;merely pedestrian at the levels of direction, craft and performance&quot; and &quot;a grab for attention by peddling an ambiguous line on gun control and eye-for-an-eye morality.&quot;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|url=https://variety.com/2020/film/reviews/run-hide-fight-review-hunters-become-prey-in-a-crass-wildly-misjudged-school-shooting-thriller-1234765063/|title=‘Run Hide Fight’ Review: Hunters Become Prey in a Crass, Wildly Misjudged School-Shooting Thriller|first1=Guy|last1=Lodge|first2=Guy|last2=Lodge|date=September 10, 2020}}&lt;/ref&gt; David Rooney of ''[[The Hollywood Reporter]]'' stated, &quot;But half-hearted posturing aside, this is ''[[Die Hard]]'' in a high school, with a 17-year-old female [[John McClane]] getting motivational input from her dead cancer mom as she dismantles the murderous plot using little more than gut instincts.&quot;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|url=https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/run-hide-fight-film-review-venice-2020|title='Run Hide Fight': Film Review &amp;#124; Venice 2020 &amp;#124; Hollywood Reporter|website=www.hollywoodreporter.com}}&lt;/ref&gt; David Ehrlich of [[IndieWire]] criticized director Rankin for several of the [[trope (cinema)|trope]]s he implemented, stating that the film is a &quot;a glib, artless, and reprehensibly stupid thriller that doesn’t even have enough on its mind to be provocative.&quot;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|url=https://www.indiewire.com/2020/09/run-hide-fight-review-1234585582/|title=‘Run Hide Fight’ Review: Glib Cinestate Thriller Turns a School Shooting into a Clichéd Action Movie|first1=David|last1=Ehrlich|first2=David|last2=Ehrlich|date=September 10, 2020}}&lt;/ref&gt; [[Robbie Collin]] of ''[[The Daily Telegraph|The Telegraph]]'' compared the ringleader of the school shooters to the [[Joker (The Dark Knight)|Joker]] from ''[[The Dark Knight (film)|The Dark Knight]]'' and stated that &quot;May's performance feels as heroic as the character she's playing&quot; but that the film &quot;makes no attempt to grapple with the American school shooting as a [[nihilistic]] cultural phenomenon.&quot;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|url=https://www.telegraph.co.uk/films/2020/09/10/run-hide-fight-reviewvenice-film-festival-high-school-shooting/|title=Run Hide Fight review, Venice Film Festival: high school shooting thriller fatally in thrall to The Dark Knight|first=Robbie|last=Collin|date=September 10, 2020|via=www.telegraph.co.uk}}&lt;/ref&gt;<br /> <br /> ==References==<br /> {{Reflist}}<br /> <br /> ==External links==<br /> * {{IMDb title|11456054}}<br /> * {{Rotten Tomatoes|run_hide_fight}}<br /> <br /> [[Category:2020 films]]<br /> [[Category:2020 action drama films]]<br /> [[Category:American films]]<br /> [[Category:American action drama films]]<br /> [[Category:Films about murderers]]<br /> [[Category:Films about school violence]]<br /> [[Category:Films about mass murder]]<br /> <br /> <br /> {{2020s-drama-film-stub}}</div> Battlefront228 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Run_Hide_Fight&diff=1000896890 Run Hide Fight 2021-01-17T07:30:16Z <p>Battlefront228: /* Plot */ &quot;Lewis Also Warns Her&quot; doesn't make sense because Zoe is the one revealing her feelings, not Lewis. Lewis already revealed his feelings earlier in the film.</p> <hr /> <div>{{short description|2020 film directed by Kyle Rankin}}<br /> {{Infobox film<br /> | name = Run Hide Fight<br /> | image = <br /> | alt = <br /> | caption = <br /> | director = [[Kyle Rankin]]<br /> | producer = {{Plainlist|<br /> * Amanda Presmyk<br /> * [[Dallas Sonnier]]<br /> }}<br /> | writer = Kyle Rankin<br /> | starring = {{Plainlist|<br /> * [[Thomas Jane]]<br /> * [[Radha Mitchell]]<br /> * [[Isabel May]]<br /> }}<br /> | music = Mondo Boys<br /> | cinematography = Darin Moran<br /> | editing = Matthew Lorentz<br /> | production_companies = [[Cinestate]]<br /> | distributor = [[The Daily Wire]]<br /> | released = {{Film date|2020|09|10|[[Venice Film Festival|Venice]]|ref1=&lt;ref name=venice&gt;{{cite web|url=https://www.labiennale.org/en/cinema/2020/out-competition/run-hide-fight|title=Run Hide Fight|work=Venice Film Fesitval|access-date=August 29, 2020}}&lt;/ref&gt;}}<br /> | runtime = 109 minutes&lt;ref name=venice /&gt;<br /> | country = United States<br /> | language = English<br /> | budget = <br /> | gross = <br /> }}<br /> <br /> '''''Run Hide Fight''''' is a 2020 American [[action thriller film]] written and directed by [[Kyle Rankin]]. Starring [[Thomas Jane]], [[Radha Mitchell]] and [[Isabel May]], it follows a high school sieged by a quartet of [[school shooting|school shooters]].<br /> <br /> The film had its world premiere at the [[Venice Film Festival]] in September 2020.<br /> <br /> ==Plot==<br /> &lt;!-- NOTICE: Plot summaries should be 400-700 words. See WP:FILMPLOT. Do not add unnecessary detail to this section. --&gt;<br /> High school student Zoe Hull struggles to come to grips with the death of her mother, Jennifer, causing her relationship with her father, Todd, to become strained. On the way to school, Zoe witnesses classmate Chris Jelick planting a strange device in a field, but writes it off as a prank. At school, Zoe's best friend Lewis attempts to ask her to [[prom]], but it backfires and Zoe leaves for the bathroom when a drink is spilled on her.<br /> <br /> Around town several incendiary devices are set off, distracting first responders and clogging up the roads. A van crashes into the school cafeteria carrying four school shooters. Leader, Tristan Voy, orders his accomplices Chris Jelick, Anna Jelick and Kip Quade to begin killing students. Lewis, who has access to the school's Facebook page, is tasked with live streaming Tristan. Zoe crawls through the bathroom ceiling and is able to escape the school. She begins warning students and helping them escape.<br /> <br /> Tristan calls the front office to alert them of the shooting. Because school protocol requires that the shooting be confirmed, the school's principal and security guard are sent to the cafeteria to investigate. The principal attempts to talk Tristan down, blaming himself for Tristan's rage. However, Tristan admits his only motivation is to cause mayhem. Tristan kills the principal but allows the unarmed security guard to escape, commenting on how unprepared the guard was for an actual shooting. With the situation finally confirmed, the front office calls a lockdown.<br /> <br /> Sheriff Tarsy attempts to coordinate a response to the shooting, but it proves difficult. An explosion in the front office kills the first police officer to respond. Anna is sent to survey the damage, but along the way she encounters Zoe, and is killed in the resulting fight. A police officer arrives at Tristan's home only to find that he has murdered his mother. The media picks up the livestream, much to Tristan's delight, and he begins removing students from their classrooms where they are sheltered in place.<br /> <br /> Kip encounters Zoe and chases after her, but he is quickly subdued. Handcuffed, Kip admits his motivation for the shooting was retaliation for a bullying incident that occurred in middle school. Zoe points out that Kip has murdered several innocent students who had nothing to do with the incident. Zoe contacts the Sheriff and tells him that he needs to direct the media's cameras away from the school so that she can safely evacuate students. Sheriff Tarsy calls Tristan live on-air to provide cover, but Tristan soon realizes the ruse. Tristan demands Zoe reveal herself to him, threatening to kill hostages every five minutes if she does not.<br /> <br /> Zoe returns to Kip, who expresses remorse for what he has done. As partial atonement for his crimes, Zoe has Kip ambush Tristan, and in the ensuing chaos that leaves Kip dead and Lewis injured, Zoe escapes with Lewis. Zoe settles Lewis and reveals that she reciprocates his feelings for her, but that she has a hard time expressing them. Lewis warns her that the van in the cafeteria is filled with explosives. Chris is sent to kill Zoe, but he is instead killed by Todd who has taken a sniping position outside the school right before Chris can execute her. Zoe hijacks the livestream, telling Tristan that she is the one people will remember, not him.<br /> <br /> Tristan rigs the van to explode and escapes with a single hostage and an explosive. Zoe removes the van from the cafeteria by putting the shift in reverse and jamming the gas pedal with Chris' rifle; it explodes in the vacant parking lot. Zoe then tries to pursue Tristan, but is mistakenly arrested by SWAT. Outside the school, Zoe meets Sheriff Tarsy, who thanks her for her actions and tells her Tristan died in an explosion. Zoe meets with her father, but she sees Tristan fleeing into the woods, having faked his own death. Zoe retrieves her father's hunting rifle and shoots Tristan as he retrieves a cache of money and a passport. Standing over him, Zoe lets Tristan bleed out, telling him that it's what he deserves for what he has done.<br /> <br /> ==Cast==<br /> {{cast list|<br /> * [[Thomas Jane]] as Todd Hull<br /> * [[Radha Mitchell]] as Jennifer Hull<br /> * [[Isabel May]] as Zoe Hull<br /> * Eli Brown as Tristan Voy<br /> * Olly Sholotan as Lewis Washington<br /> * [[Treat Williams]] as Sheriff Tarsy<br /> * [[Barbara Crampton]] as Mrs. Crawford<br /> * [[Cyrus Arnold]] as Kip Quade<br /> * Britton Sear as Chris Jelick<br /> * Catherine Davis as Anna Jelick<br /> * [[Cindy Vela]] as Ms. Nunez<br /> * [[Tom Williamson (actor)|Tom Williamson]] as Mr. Coombs<br /> * [[Joel Michaely]] as Mr. Yates<br /> }}<br /> <br /> ==Production==<br /> In December 2019, it was announced [[Thomas Jane]], [[Radha Mitchell]], [[Isabel May]], Eli Brown, Olly Sholotan, [[Treat Williams]], [[Barbara Crampton]], [[Cyrus Arnold]], Britton Sear and Catherine Davis had joined the cast of the film, with [[Kyle Rankin]] directing from a screenplay he wrote, with Rebeller distributing.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|url=https://deadline.com/2019/12/school-shooting-pic-run-hide-fight-shot-secret-night-of-the-living-deb-director-first-release-genre-label-rebeller-1202807607/|title=School Shooting Drama ‘Run Hide Fight’, Made In Secret By ‘Night Of The Living Deb’ Director, To Be First Release From New Genre Label Rebeller|website=[[Deadline Hollywood]]|first=Tom|last=Grater|date=December 17, 2019|accessdate=August 11, 2020}}&lt;/ref&gt;<br /> <br /> ==Release==<br /> The film had its world premiere at the [[Venice Film Festival]] in September 2020.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|url=https://deadline.com/2020/08/venice-film-festival-adds-luca-guadagnino-school-shooting-drama-1203009899/|title=Venice Film Festival Adds Luca Guadagnino Pandemic-Themed Short &amp; School Shooting Thriller ‘Run Hide Fight’|website=Deadline Hollywood|first=Andreas|last=Wiseman|date=August 11, 2020|accessdate=August 11, 2020}}&lt;/ref&gt;<br /> <br /> ''[[The Daily Wire]]'' acquired the North American distribution rights to the film, and it premiered on their platform on January 14, 2021.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|date=2021-01-04|title=WATCH THE TRAILER: The Daily Wire To Premiere First Film on January 14|url=https://www.dailywire.com/news/watch-the-trailer-the-daily-wire-to-premiere-first-film|access-date=2021-01-04|website=The Daily Wire|language=en}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|title=The Daily Wire Makes First Foray Into Film &amp; TV With School Shooting Movie ‘Run Hide Fight’; Right-Wing Site Developing Two TV Series|url=https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/daily-wire-makes-first-foray-140032704.html|access-date=2021-01-04|website=www.yahoo.com|language=en-US}}&lt;/ref&gt;<br /> <br /> ==Reception==<br /> ''Run Hide Fight'' received mainly negative reviews from critics and has a score of 14% on [[Rotten Tomatoes]] based on seven reviews with an average rating of 3.70/10.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |url=https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/run_hide_fight |title=Run Hide Fight (2020) |access-date=January 17, 2021 |work=[[Rotten Tomatoes]] }}&lt;/ref&gt; The film also has a score of 13 out of 100 on [[Metacritic]] based on six critics indicating &quot;overwhelming dislike&quot;.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |url=https://www.metacritic.com/movie/run-hide-fight/critic-reviews |title=Run Hide Fight |access-date=January 17, 2021 |work=[[Metacritic]] }}&lt;/ref&gt;<br /> <br /> Guy Lodge of ''[[Variety (magazine)|Variety]]'' compared the film to a cross between ''[[Elephant (2003 film)|Elephant]]'' and ''[[The Hunger Games (film)|The Hunger Games]]'', but criticized the film for being &quot;merely pedestrian at the levels of direction, craft and performance&quot; and &quot;a grab for attention by peddling an ambiguous line on gun control and eye-for-an-eye morality.&quot;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|url=https://variety.com/2020/film/reviews/run-hide-fight-review-hunters-become-prey-in-a-crass-wildly-misjudged-school-shooting-thriller-1234765063/|title=‘Run Hide Fight’ Review: Hunters Become Prey in a Crass, Wildly Misjudged School-Shooting Thriller|first1=Guy|last1=Lodge|first2=Guy|last2=Lodge|date=September 10, 2020}}&lt;/ref&gt; David Rooney of ''[[The Hollywood Reporter]]'' stated, &quot;But half-hearted posturing aside, this is ''[[Die Hard]]'' in a high school, with a 17-year-old female [[John McClane]] getting motivational input from her dead cancer mom as she dismantles the murderous plot using little more than gut instincts.&quot;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|url=https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/run-hide-fight-film-review-venice-2020|title='Run Hide Fight': Film Review &amp;#124; Venice 2020 &amp;#124; Hollywood Reporter|website=www.hollywoodreporter.com}}&lt;/ref&gt; David Ehrlich of [[IndieWire]] criticized director Rankin for several of the [[trope (cinema)|trope]]s he implemented, stating that the film is a &quot;a glib, artless, and reprehensibly stupid thriller that doesn’t even have enough on its mind to be provocative.&quot;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|url=https://www.indiewire.com/2020/09/run-hide-fight-review-1234585582/|title=‘Run Hide Fight’ Review: Glib Cinestate Thriller Turns a School Shooting into a Clichéd Action Movie|first1=David|last1=Ehrlich|first2=David|last2=Ehrlich|date=September 10, 2020}}&lt;/ref&gt; [[Robbie Collin]] of ''[[The Daily Telegraph|The Telegraph]]'' compared the ringleader of the school shooters to the [[Joker (The Dark Knight)|Joker]] from ''[[The Dark Knight (film)|The Dark Knight]]'' and stated that &quot;May's performance feels as heroic as the character she's playing&quot; but that the film &quot;makes no attempt to grapple with the American school shooting as a [[nihilistic]] cultural phenomenon.&quot;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|url=https://www.telegraph.co.uk/films/2020/09/10/run-hide-fight-reviewvenice-film-festival-high-school-shooting/|title=Run Hide Fight review, Venice Film Festival: high school shooting thriller fatally in thrall to The Dark Knight|first=Robbie|last=Collin|date=September 10, 2020|via=www.telegraph.co.uk}}&lt;/ref&gt;<br /> <br /> ==References==<br /> {{Reflist}}<br /> <br /> ==External links==<br /> * {{IMDb title|11456054}}<br /> * {{Rotten Tomatoes|run_hide_fight}}<br /> <br /> [[Category:2020 films]]<br /> [[Category:2020 action drama films]]<br /> [[Category:American films]]<br /> [[Category:American action drama films]]<br /> [[Category:Films about murderers]]<br /> [[Category:Films about school violence]]<br /> [[Category:Films about mass murder]]<br /> <br /> <br /> {{2020s-drama-film-stub}}</div> Battlefront228 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Run_Hide_Fight&diff=1000885270 Run Hide Fight 2021-01-17T06:02:31Z <p>Battlefront228: /* Plot */</p> <hr /> <div>{{short description|2020 film directed by Kyle Rankin}}<br /> {{Infobox film<br /> | name = Run Hide Fight<br /> | image = <br /> | alt = <br /> | caption = <br /> | director = [[Kyle Rankin]]<br /> | producer = {{Plainlist|<br /> * Amanda Presmyk<br /> * [[Dallas Sonnier]]<br /> }}<br /> | writer = Kyle Rankin<br /> | starring = {{Plainlist|<br /> * [[Thomas Jane]]<br /> * [[Radha Mitchell]]<br /> * [[Isabel May]]<br /> }}<br /> | music = Mondo Boys<br /> | cinematography = Darin Moran<br /> | editing = Matthew Lorentz<br /> | production_companies = [[Cinestate]]<br /> | distributor = [[The Daily Wire]]<br /> | released = {{Film date|2020|09|10|[[Venice Film Festival|Venice]]|ref1=&lt;ref name=venice&gt;{{cite web|url=https://www.labiennale.org/en/cinema/2020/out-competition/run-hide-fight|title=Run Hide Fight|work=Venice Film Fesitval|access-date=August 29, 2020}}&lt;/ref&gt;}}<br /> | runtime = 109 minutes&lt;ref name=venice /&gt;<br /> | country = United States<br /> | language = English<br /> | budget = <br /> | gross = <br /> }}<br /> <br /> '''''Run Hide Fight''''' is a 2020 American [[action thriller film]] written and directed by [[Kyle Rankin]]. Starring [[Thomas Jane]], [[Radha Mitchell]] and [[Isabel May]], it follows a high school sieged by a quartet of [[school shooting|school shooters]].<br /> <br /> The film had its world premiere at the [[Venice Film Festival]] in September 2020.<br /> <br /> ==Plot==<br /> <br /> Zoe Hull struggles to come to grips with the death of her mother, causing her relationship with her father, Todd, to become strained. On the way to school, Zoe witnesses classmate Chris Jelick planting a strange device in a field, but writes it off as a prank. At school, Zoe's best friend Lewis attempts to ask her to the Prom, but it backfires and Zoe leaves for the bathroom to avoid the situation. <br /> <br /> Around town several incendiary devices are set off, distracting first responders and clogging up the roads. A large white van drives into the school cafeteria carrying four school shooters. Leader Tristan Voy orders his accomplices Chris, Anna Jelick and Kip Quade to begin killing students. Lewis, who has access to the school's Facebook page, is tasked with live streaming Tristan. Zoe crawls through the bathroom ceiling and is able to escape the school. She begins warning students and helping them escape. <br /> <br /> Tristan calls the front office to alert them of the shooting. Because school protocol requires that the shooting be confirmed, the school's principal and security guard are sent to the cafeteria to investigate. The principal attempts to talk Tristan down, blaming himself for Tristan's rage. However, Tristan admits his only motivation is to cause mayhem. Tristan kills the principal but allows the security guard to escape, commenting on how unprepared the guard was for an actual shooting. With the situation finally confirmed, the front office calls a lockdown. <br /> <br /> Sheriff Tarsy attempts to coordinate a response to the shooting, but it proves difficult. An explosion in the front office kills the first police officer to respond. Anna is sent to survey the damage, but along the way she encounters Zoe, and is killed in the resulting fight. A police officer arrives at Tristan's home only to find that he has murdered his parents. The media picks up the livestream, much to Tristan's delight, and he begins removing students from their classrooms where they are sheltered in place. <br /> <br /> Kip encounters Zoe and chases after her, but is quickly subdued. Handcuffed, Kip admits his motivation for the shooting was retaliation for an incident that occurred in Middle School. Zoe points out that Kip has murdered several innocent students who had nothing to do with the incident. Zoe contacts the Sheriff and tells him that he needs to direct the media's cameras away from the school so that she can safely evacuate students. Sheriff Tarsy calls Tristan live on-air to provide cover, but Tristan soon realizes the ruse. Tristan demands Zoe reveal herself to him, threatening to kill his hostages if she doesn't.<br /> <br /> Zoe returns to Kip, who expresses remorse for what he has done. As partial atonement for his crimes, Zoe has Kip attack Tristan, and in the ensuing chaos escapes with an injured Lewis. Zoe reveals that she also has feelings for Lewis, but that she has a hard time expressing them. Lewis warns Zoe that the white van is filled with explosives. Chris is sent to kill Zoe, but he is instead killed by Todd who has taken a sniping position outside the school. Zoe hijacks the livestream, telling Tristan that he will not be remembered because people will only remember her. <br /> <br /> Tristan rigs the van to explode and escapes with a single hostage and an explosive. Zoe removes the van from the cafeteria, causing it to explode in the parking lot. Zoe then tries to pursue Tristan, but is mistakenly arrested. Outside the school, Zoe meets Sheriff Tarsy, who thanks her for her actions and tells her Tristan died in an explosion. Zoe meets with her father, and the two affirm their love for each other. Zoe sees Tristan escaping the scene, having faked his own death. Determined to end it, Zoe retrieves her father's rifle and shoots Tristan before he can flee the country. Standing above Tristan, Zoe lets him bleed out, telling him that it's what he deserves for what he has done.<br /> <br /> ==Cast==<br /> {{cast list|<br /> * [[Thomas Jane]] as Todd Hull<br /> * [[Radha Mitchell]] as Jennifer Hull<br /> * [[Isabel May]] as Zoe Hull<br /> * Eli Brown as Tristan Voy<br /> * Olly Sholotan as Lewis Washington<br /> * [[Treat Williams]] as Sheriff Tarsy<br /> * [[Barbara Crampton]] as Mrs. Crawford<br /> * [[Cyrus Arnold]] as Kip Quade<br /> * Britton Sear as Chris Jelick<br /> * Catherine Davis as Anna Jelick<br /> * [[Cindy Vela]] as Ms. Nunez<br /> * [[Tom Williamson (actor)|Tom Williamson]] as Mr. Coombs<br /> * [[Joel Michaely]] as Mr. Yates<br /> }}<br /> <br /> ==Production==<br /> In December 2019, it was announced [[Thomas Jane]], [[Radha Mitchell]], [[Isabel May]], Eli Brown, Olly Sholotan, [[Treat Williams]], [[Barbara Crampton]], [[Cyrus Arnold]], Britton Sear and Catherine Davis had joined the cast of the film, with [[Kyle Rankin]] directing from a screenplay he wrote, with Rebeller distributing.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|url=https://deadline.com/2019/12/school-shooting-pic-run-hide-fight-shot-secret-night-of-the-living-deb-director-first-release-genre-label-rebeller-1202807607/|title=School Shooting Drama ‘Run Hide Fight’, Made In Secret By ‘Night Of The Living Deb’ Director, To Be First Release From New Genre Label Rebeller|website=[[Deadline Hollywood]]|first=Tom|last=Grater|date=December 17, 2019|accessdate=August 11, 2020}}&lt;/ref&gt;<br /> <br /> ==Release==<br /> The film had its world premiere at the [[Venice Film Festival]] in September 2020.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|url=https://deadline.com/2020/08/venice-film-festival-adds-luca-guadagnino-school-shooting-drama-1203009899/|title=Venice Film Festival Adds Luca Guadagnino Pandemic-Themed Short &amp; School Shooting Thriller ‘Run Hide Fight’|website=Deadline Hollywood|first=Andreas|last=Wiseman|date=August 11, 2020|accessdate=August 11, 2020}}&lt;/ref&gt;<br /> <br /> ''[[The Daily Wire]]'' acquired the North American distribution rights to the film, and it premiered on their platform on January 14, 2021.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|date=2021-01-04|title=WATCH THE TRAILER: The Daily Wire To Premiere First Film on January 14|url=https://www.dailywire.com/news/watch-the-trailer-the-daily-wire-to-premiere-first-film|access-date=2021-01-04|website=The Daily Wire|language=en}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|title=The Daily Wire Makes First Foray Into Film &amp; TV With School Shooting Movie ‘Run Hide Fight’; Right-Wing Site Developing Two TV Series|url=https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/daily-wire-makes-first-foray-140032704.html|access-date=2021-01-04|website=www.yahoo.com|language=en-US}}&lt;/ref&gt;<br /> <br /> ==Reception==<br /> Guy Lodge of ''[[Variety (magazine)|Variety]]'' compared the film to a cross between ''[[Elephant (2003 film)|Elephant]]'' and ''[[The Hunger Games (film)|The Hunger Games]]''.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|url=https://variety.com/2020/film/reviews/run-hide-fight-review-hunters-become-prey-in-a-crass-wildly-misjudged-school-shooting-thriller-1234765063/|title=‘Run Hide Fight’ Review: Hunters Become Prey in a Crass, Wildly Misjudged School-Shooting Thriller|first1=Guy|last1=Lodge|first2=Guy|last2=Lodge|date=September 10, 2020}}&lt;/ref&gt; David Rooney of ''[[The Hollywood Reporter]]'' stated, &quot;But half-hearted posturing aside, this is ''[[Die Hard]]'' in a high school, with a 17-year-old female [[John McClane]] getting motivational input from her dead cancer mom as she dismantles the murderous plot using little more than gut instincts.&quot;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|url=https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/run-hide-fight-film-review-venice-2020|title='Run Hide Fight': Film Review &amp;#124; Venice 2020 &amp;#124; Hollywood Reporter|website=www.hollywoodreporter.com}}&lt;/ref&gt; David Ehrlich of [[IndieWire]] criticized director Rankin for several of the [[trope (cinema)|trope]]s he implemented.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|url=https://www.indiewire.com/2020/09/run-hide-fight-review-1234585582/|title=‘Run Hide Fight’ Review: Glib Cinestate Thriller Turns a School Shooting into a Clichéd Action Movie|first1=David|last1=Ehrlich|first2=David|last2=Ehrlich|date=September 10, 2020}}&lt;/ref&gt; [[Robbie Collin]] of ''[[The Daily Telegraph|The Telegraph]]'' compared the ringleader of the school shooters to the [[Joker (The Dark Knight)|Joker]] from ''[[The Dark Knight (film)|The Dark Knight]]'' and stated that &quot;May's performance feels as heroic as the character she's playing.&quot;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|url=https://www.telegraph.co.uk/films/2020/09/10/run-hide-fight-reviewvenice-film-festival-high-school-shooting/|title=Run Hide Fight review, Venice Film Festival: high school shooting thriller fatally in thrall to The Dark Knight|first=Robbie|last=Collin|date=September 10, 2020|via=www.telegraph.co.uk}}&lt;/ref&gt;<br /> <br /> ==References==<br /> {{Reflist}}<br /> <br /> ==External links==<br /> * {{IMDb title|11456054}}<br /> * {{Rotten Tomatoes|run_hide_fight}}<br /> <br /> [[Category:2020 films]]<br /> [[Category:2020 action drama films]]<br /> [[Category:American films]]<br /> [[Category:American action drama films]]<br /> [[Category:Films about murderers]]<br /> [[Category:Films about school violence]]<br /> [[Category:Films about mass murder]]<br /> <br /> <br /> {{2020s-drama-film-stub}}</div> Battlefront228 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Run_Hide_Fight&diff=1000884593 Run Hide Fight 2021-01-17T05:56:58Z <p>Battlefront228: /* Plot */</p> <hr /> <div>{{short description|2020 film directed by Kyle Rankin}}<br /> {{Infobox film<br /> | name = Run Hide Fight<br /> | image = <br /> | alt = <br /> | caption = <br /> | director = [[Kyle Rankin]]<br /> | producer = {{Plainlist|<br /> * Amanda Presmyk<br /> * [[Dallas Sonnier]]<br /> }}<br /> | writer = Kyle Rankin<br /> | starring = {{Plainlist|<br /> * [[Thomas Jane]]<br /> * [[Radha Mitchell]]<br /> * [[Isabel May]]<br /> }}<br /> | music = Mondo Boys<br /> | cinematography = Darin Moran<br /> | editing = Matthew Lorentz<br /> | production_companies = [[Cinestate]]<br /> | distributor = [[The Daily Wire]]<br /> | released = {{Film date|2020|09|10|[[Venice Film Festival|Venice]]|ref1=&lt;ref name=venice&gt;{{cite web|url=https://www.labiennale.org/en/cinema/2020/out-competition/run-hide-fight|title=Run Hide Fight|work=Venice Film Fesitval|access-date=August 29, 2020}}&lt;/ref&gt;}}<br /> | runtime = 109 minutes&lt;ref name=venice /&gt;<br /> | country = United States<br /> | language = English<br /> | budget = <br /> | gross = <br /> }}<br /> <br /> '''''Run Hide Fight''''' is a 2020 American [[action thriller film]] written and directed by [[Kyle Rankin]]. Starring [[Thomas Jane]], [[Radha Mitchell]] and [[Isabel May]], it follows a high school sieged by a quartet of [[school shooting|school shooters]].<br /> <br /> The film had its world premiere at the [[Venice Film Festival]] in September 2020.<br /> <br /> ==Plot==<br /> <br /> Zoe Hull struggles to come to grips with the death of her mother, causing her relationship with her father, Todd, to become strained. On the way to school, Zoe witnesses classmate Chris Jelick planting a strange device in a field, but writes it off as a prank. At school, Zoe's best friend Lewis attempts to ask her to the Prom, but it backfires and Zoe leaves for the bathroom to avoid the situation. <br /> <br /> Around town several incendiary devices are set off, distracting first responders and clogging up the roads. A large white van drives into the school cafeteria carrying four school shooters. Leader Tristan Voy orders his accomplices Chris, Anna Jelick and Kip Quade to begin killing students. Lewis, who has access to the school's Facebook page, is tasked with live streaming Tristan. Zoe crawls through the bathroom ceiling and is able to escape the school. She begins warning students and helping them escape. <br /> <br /> Tristan calls the front office to alert them of the shooting. Because school protocol requires that the shooting be confirmed, the school's principal and security guard are sent to the cafeteria to investigate. The principal attempts to talk Tristan down, blaming himself for Tristan's rage. However, Tristan admits his only motivation is to cause mayhem. Tristan kills the principal but allows the security guard to escape, commenting on how unprepared the guard was for an actual shooting. With the situation finally confirmed, the front office calls a lockdown. <br /> <br /> Sheriff Tarsy attempts to coordinate a response to the shooting, but it proves difficult. An explosion in the front office kills the first police officer to respond. Anna is sent to survey the damage, but along the way she encounters Zoe, and is killed in the resulting fight. A police officer arrives at Tristan's home only to find that he has murdered his parents. The media picks up the livestream, much to Tristan's delight, and he begins removing students from their classrooms where they are sheltered in place. <br /> <br /> Kip encounters Zoe and chases after her, but is quickly subdued. Handcuffed, Kip admits his motivation for the shooting was retaliation for an incident that occurred in Middle School. Zoe points out that Kip has murdered several innocent students who had nothing to do with the incident. Zoe contacts the Sheriff and tells him that he needs to direct the media's cameras away from the school so she can safely evacuate students. Sheriff Tarsy calls Tristan live on-air to provide cover, but Tristan soon realizes the ruse. Tristan demands Zoe reveal herself to him, threatening to kill his hostages if she doesn't.<br /> <br /> Zoe returns to Kip, who expresses remorse for what he has done. As partial atonement for his crimes, Zoe has Kip attack Tristan, and in the ensuing chaos escapes with an injured Lewis. Zoe reveals that she also has feelings for Lewis, but that she has a hard time expressing them. Lewis warns Zoe that the white van is filled with explosives. Chris is sent to kill Zoe, but he is instead killed by Todd who has taken a sniping position outside the school. Zoe hijacks the livestream, telling Tristan that he will not be remembered because people will only remember her. <br /> <br /> Tristan rigs the van to explode and escapes with a single hostage and an explosive. Zoe removes the van from the cafeteria, causing it to explode in the parking lot. Zoe then tries to pursue Tristan, but is mistakenly arrested. Outside the school, Zoe meets Sheriff Tarsy, who thanks her for her actions and tells her Tristan died in an explosion. Zoe meets with her father, and the two affirm their love for each other. Zoe sees Tristan escaping the scene, having faked his own death. Determined to end it, Zoe retrieves her father's rifle and shoots Tristan before he can flee the country. Standing above Tristan, Zoe lets Tristan bleed out, telling him that it's what he deserves for what he has done.<br /> <br /> ==Cast==<br /> * [[Thomas Jane]] as Todd Hull<br /> * [[Radha Mitchell]] as Jennifer Hull<br /> * [[Isabel May]] as Zoe Hull<br /> * Eli Brown as Tristan Voy<br /> * Olly Sholotan as Lewis Washington<br /> * [[Treat Williams]] as Sheriff Tarsy<br /> * [[Barbara Crampton]] as Mrs. Crawford<br /> * [[Cyrus Arnold]] as Kip Quade<br /> * Britton Sear as Chris Jelick<br /> * Catherine Davis as Anna Jelick<br /> <br /> ==Production==<br /> In December 2019, it was announced [[Thomas Jane]], [[Radha Mitchell]], [[Isabel May]], Eli Brown, Olly Sholotan, [[Treat Williams]], [[Barbara Crampton]], [[Cyrus Arnold]], Britton Sear and Catherine Davis had joined the cast of the film, with [[Kyle Rankin]] directing from a screenplay he wrote, with Rebeller distributing.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|url=https://deadline.com/2019/12/school-shooting-pic-run-hide-fight-shot-secret-night-of-the-living-deb-director-first-release-genre-label-rebeller-1202807607/|title=School Shooting Drama ‘Run Hide Fight’, Made In Secret By ‘Night Of The Living Deb’ Director, To Be First Release From New Genre Label Rebeller|website=[[Deadline Hollywood]]|first=Tom|last=Grater|date=December 17, 2019|accessdate=August 11, 2020}}&lt;/ref&gt;<br /> <br /> ==Release==<br /> The film had its world premiere at the [[Venice Film Festival]] in September 2020.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|url=https://deadline.com/2020/08/venice-film-festival-adds-luca-guadagnino-school-shooting-drama-1203009899/|title=Venice Film Festival Adds Luca Guadagnino Pandemic-Themed Short &amp; School Shooting Thriller ‘Run Hide Fight’|website=Deadline Hollywood|first=Andreas|last=Wiseman|date=August 11, 2020|accessdate=August 11, 2020}}&lt;/ref&gt;<br /> <br /> ''[[The Daily Wire]]'' acquired the North American distribution rights to the film, and it premiered on their platform on January 14, 2021.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|date=2021-01-04|title=WATCH THE TRAILER: The Daily Wire To Premiere First Film on January 14|url=https://www.dailywire.com/news/watch-the-trailer-the-daily-wire-to-premiere-first-film|access-date=2021-01-04|website=The Daily Wire|language=en}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|title=The Daily Wire Makes First Foray Into Film &amp; TV With School Shooting Movie ‘Run Hide Fight’; Right-Wing Site Developing Two TV Series|url=https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/daily-wire-makes-first-foray-140032704.html|access-date=2021-01-04|website=www.yahoo.com|language=en-US}}&lt;/ref&gt;<br /> <br /> ==Reception==<br /> Guy Lodge of ''[[Variety (magazine)|Variety]]'' compared the film to a cross between ''[[Elephant (2003 film)|Elephant]]'' and ''[[The Hunger Games (film)|The Hunger Games]]''.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|url=https://variety.com/2020/film/reviews/run-hide-fight-review-hunters-become-prey-in-a-crass-wildly-misjudged-school-shooting-thriller-1234765063/|title=‘Run Hide Fight’ Review: Hunters Become Prey in a Crass, Wildly Misjudged School-Shooting Thriller|first1=Guy|last1=Lodge|first2=Guy|last2=Lodge|date=September 10, 2020}}&lt;/ref&gt; David Rooney of ''[[The Hollywood Reporter]]'' stated, &quot;But half-hearted posturing aside, this is ''[[Die Hard]]'' in a high school, with a 17-year-old female [[John McClane]] getting motivational input from her dead cancer mom as she dismantles the murderous plot using little more than gut instincts.&quot;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|url=https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/run-hide-fight-film-review-venice-2020|title='Run Hide Fight': Film Review &amp;#124; Venice 2020 &amp;#124; Hollywood Reporter|website=www.hollywoodreporter.com}}&lt;/ref&gt; David Ehrlich of [[IndieWire]] criticized director Rankin for several of the [[trope (cinema)|trope]]s he implemented.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|url=https://www.indiewire.com/2020/09/run-hide-fight-review-1234585582/|title=‘Run Hide Fight’ Review: Glib Cinestate Thriller Turns a School Shooting into a Clichéd Action Movie|first1=David|last1=Ehrlich|first2=David|last2=Ehrlich|date=September 10, 2020}}&lt;/ref&gt; [[Robbie Collin]] of ''[[The Daily Telegraph|The Telegraph]]'' compared the ringleader of the school shooters to the [[Joker (The Dark Knight)|Joker]] from ''[[The Dark Knight (film)|The Dark Knight]]'' and stated that &quot;May's performance feels as heroic as the character she's playing.&quot;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|url=https://www.telegraph.co.uk/films/2020/09/10/run-hide-fight-reviewvenice-film-festival-high-school-shooting/|title=Run Hide Fight review, Venice Film Festival: high school shooting thriller fatally in thrall to The Dark Knight|first=Robbie|last=Collin|date=September 10, 2020|via=www.telegraph.co.uk}}&lt;/ref&gt;<br /> <br /> ==References==<br /> {{Reflist}}<br /> <br /> ==External links==<br /> * {{IMDb title|11456054}}<br /> * {{Rotten Tomatoes|run_hide_fight}}<br /> <br /> [[Category:2020 films]]<br /> [[Category:2020 action drama films]]<br /> [[Category:American films]]<br /> [[Category:American action drama films]]<br /> [[Category:Films about murderers]]<br /> [[Category:Films about school violence]]<br /> [[Category:Films about mass murder]]<br /> <br /> <br /> {{2020s-drama-film-stub}}</div> Battlefront228 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Run_Hide_Fight&diff=1000884294 Run Hide Fight 2021-01-17T05:54:00Z <p>Battlefront228: /* Plot */</p> <hr /> <div>{{short description|2020 film directed by Kyle Rankin}}<br /> {{Infobox film<br /> | name = Run Hide Fight<br /> | image = <br /> | alt = <br /> | caption = <br /> | director = [[Kyle Rankin]]<br /> | producer = {{Plainlist|<br /> * Amanda Presmyk<br /> * [[Dallas Sonnier]]<br /> }}<br /> | writer = Kyle Rankin<br /> | starring = {{Plainlist|<br /> * [[Thomas Jane]]<br /> * [[Radha Mitchell]]<br /> * [[Isabel May]]<br /> }}<br /> | music = Mondo Boys<br /> | cinematography = Darin Moran<br /> | editing = Matthew Lorentz<br /> | production_companies = [[Cinestate]]<br /> | distributor = [[The Daily Wire]]<br /> | released = {{Film date|2020|09|10|[[Venice Film Festival|Venice]]|ref1=&lt;ref name=venice&gt;{{cite web|url=https://www.labiennale.org/en/cinema/2020/out-competition/run-hide-fight|title=Run Hide Fight|work=Venice Film Fesitval|access-date=August 29, 2020}}&lt;/ref&gt;}}<br /> | runtime = 109 minutes&lt;ref name=venice /&gt;<br /> | country = United States<br /> | language = English<br /> | budget = <br /> | gross = <br /> }}<br /> <br /> '''''Run Hide Fight''''' is a 2020 American [[action thriller film]] written and directed by [[Kyle Rankin]]. Starring [[Thomas Jane]], [[Radha Mitchell]] and [[Isabel May]], it follows a high school sieged by a quartet of [[school shooting|school shooters]].<br /> <br /> The film had its world premiere at the [[Venice Film Festival]] in September 2020.<br /> <br /> ==Plot==<br /> <br /> Zoe Hull struggles to come to grips with the death of her mother, causing her relationship with her father, Todd, to become strained. On the way to school, Zoe witnesses classmate Chris Jelick planting a strange device in a field, but writes it off as a prank. At school, Zoe's best friend Lewis attempts to ask her to the Prom, but it backfires and Zoe leaves for the bathroom to avoid the situation. <br /> <br /> Around town several incendiary devices are set off, distracting first responders and clogging up the roads. A large white van drives into the school cafeteria carrying four school shooters. Leader Tristan Voy orders his accomplices Chris, Anna Jelick and Kip Quade to begin killing students. Lewis, who has access to the school's Facebook page, is tasked with live streaming Tristan. Zoe crawls through the bathroom ceiling and is able to escape the school. She begins warning students and helping them escape. <br /> <br /> Tristan calls the front office to alert them of the shooting. Because school protocol requires that the shooting be confirmed, the school's principal and security guard are sent to the cafeteria to investigate. The principal attempts to talk Tristan down, blaming himself for Tristan's rage. However, Tristan admits his only motivation is to cause mayhem. Tristan kills the principal but allows the security guard to escape, commenting on how unprepared the guard was for an actual shooting. With the situation finally confirmed, the front office calls a lockdown. <br /> <br /> Sheriff Tarsy attempts to coordinate a response to the shooting, but it proves difficult. An explosion in the front office kills the first police officer to respond. Anna is sent to survey the damage, but along the way she encounters Zoe, and is killed in the resulting fight. A police officer arrive at Tristan's home only to find that he has murdered his parents. The media picks up the livestream, much to Tristan's delight, and he begins removing students from their classrooms where they are sheltered in place. <br /> <br /> Kip encounters Zoe and chases after her, but is quickly subdued. Handcuffed, Kip admits his motivation for the shooting was retaliation for an incident that occurred in Middle School. Zoe points out that Kip has murdered several innocent students who had nothing to do with the incident. Zoe contacts the Sheriff and tells him that he needs to direct the media's cameras away from the school so she can safely evacuate students. Sheriff Tarsy calls Tristan live on-air to provide cover, but Tristan soon realizes the ruse. Tristan demands Zoe reveal herself to him, threatening to kill his hostages if she doesn't.<br /> <br /> Zoe returns to Kip, who expresses remorse for what he has done. As partial atonement for his crimes, Zoe has Kip attack Tristan, and in the ensuing chaos escapes with an injured Lewis. Zoe reveals that she also has feelings for Lewis, but that she has a hard time expressing them. Lewis warns Zoe that the white van is filled with explosives. Chris is sent to kill Zoe, but he is instead killed by Todd who has taken a sniping position outside the school. Zoe hijacks the livestream, telling Tristan that he will not be remembered because people will only remember her. <br /> <br /> Tristan rigs the van to explode and escapes with a single hostage and an explosive. Zoe removes the van from the cafeteria, causing it to explode in the parking lot. Zoe then tries to pursue Tristan, but is mistakenly arrested. Outside the school, Zoe meets Sheriff Tarsy, who thanks her for her actions and tells her Tristan died in an explosion. Zoe meets with her father, and the two affirm their love for each other. Zoe sees Tristan escaping the scene, having faked his own death. Determined to end it, Zoe retrieves her father's rifle and shoots Tristan before he can flee the country. Standing above Tristan, Zoe lets Tristan bleed out, telling him that it's what he deserves for what he has done.<br /> <br /> ==Cast==<br /> * [[Thomas Jane]] as Todd Hull<br /> * [[Radha Mitchell]] as Jennifer Hull<br /> * [[Isabel May]] as Zoe Hull<br /> * Eli Brown as Tristan Voy<br /> * Olly Sholotan as Lewis Washington<br /> * [[Treat Williams]] as Sheriff Tarsy<br /> * [[Barbara Crampton]] as Mrs. Crawford<br /> * [[Cyrus Arnold]] as Kip Quade<br /> * Britton Sear as Chris Jelick<br /> * Catherine Davis as Anna Jelick<br /> <br /> ==Production==<br /> In December 2019, it was announced [[Thomas Jane]], [[Radha Mitchell]], [[Isabel May]], Eli Brown, Olly Sholotan, [[Treat Williams]], [[Barbara Crampton]], [[Cyrus Arnold]], Britton Sear and Catherine Davis had joined the cast of the film, with [[Kyle Rankin]] directing from a screenplay he wrote, with Rebeller distributing.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|url=https://deadline.com/2019/12/school-shooting-pic-run-hide-fight-shot-secret-night-of-the-living-deb-director-first-release-genre-label-rebeller-1202807607/|title=School Shooting Drama ‘Run Hide Fight’, Made In Secret By ‘Night Of The Living Deb’ Director, To Be First Release From New Genre Label Rebeller|website=[[Deadline Hollywood]]|first=Tom|last=Grater|date=December 17, 2019|accessdate=August 11, 2020}}&lt;/ref&gt;<br /> <br /> ==Release==<br /> The film had its world premiere at the [[Venice Film Festival]] in September 2020.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|url=https://deadline.com/2020/08/venice-film-festival-adds-luca-guadagnino-school-shooting-drama-1203009899/|title=Venice Film Festival Adds Luca Guadagnino Pandemic-Themed Short &amp; School Shooting Thriller ‘Run Hide Fight’|website=Deadline Hollywood|first=Andreas|last=Wiseman|date=August 11, 2020|accessdate=August 11, 2020}}&lt;/ref&gt;<br /> <br /> ''[[The Daily Wire]]'' acquired the North American distribution rights to the film, and it premiered on their platform on January 14, 2021.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|date=2021-01-04|title=WATCH THE TRAILER: The Daily Wire To Premiere First Film on January 14|url=https://www.dailywire.com/news/watch-the-trailer-the-daily-wire-to-premiere-first-film|access-date=2021-01-04|website=The Daily Wire|language=en}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|title=The Daily Wire Makes First Foray Into Film &amp; TV With School Shooting Movie ‘Run Hide Fight’; Right-Wing Site Developing Two TV Series|url=https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/daily-wire-makes-first-foray-140032704.html|access-date=2021-01-04|website=www.yahoo.com|language=en-US}}&lt;/ref&gt;<br /> <br /> ==Reception==<br /> Guy Lodge of ''[[Variety (magazine)|Variety]]'' compared the film to a cross between ''[[Elephant (2003 film)|Elephant]]'' and ''[[The Hunger Games (film)|The Hunger Games]]''.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|url=https://variety.com/2020/film/reviews/run-hide-fight-review-hunters-become-prey-in-a-crass-wildly-misjudged-school-shooting-thriller-1234765063/|title=‘Run Hide Fight’ Review: Hunters Become Prey in a Crass, Wildly Misjudged School-Shooting Thriller|first1=Guy|last1=Lodge|first2=Guy|last2=Lodge|date=September 10, 2020}}&lt;/ref&gt; David Rooney of ''[[The Hollywood Reporter]]'' stated, &quot;But half-hearted posturing aside, this is ''[[Die Hard]]'' in a high school, with a 17-year-old female [[John McClane]] getting motivational input from her dead cancer mom as she dismantles the murderous plot using little more than gut instincts.&quot;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|url=https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/run-hide-fight-film-review-venice-2020|title='Run Hide Fight': Film Review &amp;#124; Venice 2020 &amp;#124; Hollywood Reporter|website=www.hollywoodreporter.com}}&lt;/ref&gt; David Ehrlich of [[IndieWire]] criticized director Rankin for several of the [[trope (cinema)|trope]]s he implemented.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|url=https://www.indiewire.com/2020/09/run-hide-fight-review-1234585582/|title=‘Run Hide Fight’ Review: Glib Cinestate Thriller Turns a School Shooting into a Clichéd Action Movie|first1=David|last1=Ehrlich|first2=David|last2=Ehrlich|date=September 10, 2020}}&lt;/ref&gt; [[Robbie Collin]] of ''[[The Daily Telegraph|The Telegraph]]'' compared the ringleader of the school shooters to the [[Joker (The Dark Knight)|Joker]] from ''[[The Dark Knight (film)|The Dark Knight]]'' and stated that &quot;May's performance feels as heroic as the character she's playing.&quot;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|url=https://www.telegraph.co.uk/films/2020/09/10/run-hide-fight-reviewvenice-film-festival-high-school-shooting/|title=Run Hide Fight review, Venice Film Festival: high school shooting thriller fatally in thrall to The Dark Knight|first=Robbie|last=Collin|date=September 10, 2020|via=www.telegraph.co.uk}}&lt;/ref&gt;<br /> <br /> ==References==<br /> {{Reflist}}<br /> <br /> ==External links==<br /> * {{IMDb title|11456054}}<br /> * {{Rotten Tomatoes|run_hide_fight}}<br /> <br /> [[Category:2020 films]]<br /> [[Category:2020 action drama films]]<br /> [[Category:American films]]<br /> [[Category:American action drama films]]<br /> [[Category:Films about murderers]]<br /> [[Category:Films about school violence]]<br /> [[Category:Films about mass murder]]<br /> <br /> <br /> {{2020s-drama-film-stub}}</div> Battlefront228 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Run_Hide_Fight&diff=1000884080 Run Hide Fight 2021-01-17T05:52:02Z <p>Battlefront228: /* Plot */ edits</p> <hr /> <div>{{short description|2020 film directed by Kyle Rankin}}<br /> {{Infobox film<br /> | name = Run Hide Fight<br /> | image = <br /> | alt = <br /> | caption = <br /> | director = [[Kyle Rankin]]<br /> | producer = {{Plainlist|<br /> * Amanda Presmyk<br /> * [[Dallas Sonnier]]<br /> }}<br /> | writer = Kyle Rankin<br /> | starring = {{Plainlist|<br /> * [[Thomas Jane]]<br /> * [[Radha Mitchell]]<br /> * [[Isabel May]]<br /> }}<br /> | music = Mondo Boys<br /> | cinematography = Darin Moran<br /> | editing = Matthew Lorentz<br /> | production_companies = [[Cinestate]]<br /> | distributor = [[The Daily Wire]]<br /> | released = {{Film date|2020|09|10|[[Venice Film Festival|Venice]]|ref1=&lt;ref name=venice&gt;{{cite web|url=https://www.labiennale.org/en/cinema/2020/out-competition/run-hide-fight|title=Run Hide Fight|work=Venice Film Fesitval|access-date=August 29, 2020}}&lt;/ref&gt;}}<br /> | runtime = 109 minutes&lt;ref name=venice /&gt;<br /> | country = United States<br /> | language = English<br /> | budget = <br /> | gross = <br /> }}<br /> <br /> '''''Run Hide Fight''''' is a 2020 American [[action thriller film]] written and directed by [[Kyle Rankin]]. Starring [[Thomas Jane]], [[Radha Mitchell]] and [[Isabel May]], it follows a high school sieged by a quartet of [[school shooting|school shooters]].<br /> <br /> The film had its world premiere at the [[Venice Film Festival]] in September 2020.<br /> <br /> ==Plot==<br /> <br /> Zoe Hull struggles to come to grips with the death of her mother, causing her relationship with her father, Todd, to become strained. On the way to school, Zoe witnesses classmate Chris Jelick planting a strange device in a field, but writes it off as a prank. At school, Zoe's best friend Lewis attempts to ask her to the Prom, but it backfires and Zoe leaves for the bathroom to avoid the situation. <br /> <br /> Around town several incendiary devices are set off, distracting first responders and clogging up the roads. A large white van drives into the school cafeteria carrying four school shooters. Leader Tristan Voy orders his accomplices Chris, Anna Jelick and Kip Quade to begin killing students. Lewis, who has access to the school's Facebook page, is tasked with recording Tristan. Zoe crawls through the bathroom ceiling and is able to escape the school. She begins warning students and helping them escape. <br /> <br /> Tristan calls the front office to alert them of the shooting. Because school protocol requires that the shooting be confirmed, the school's principal and security guard are sent to the cafeteria to investigate. The principal attempts to talk Tristan down, blaming himself for Tristan's rage. However, Tristan admits his only motivation is to cause mayhem. Tristan kills the principal but allows the security guard to escape, commenting on how unprepared the guard was for an actual shooting. With the situation finally confirmed, the front office calls a lockdown. <br /> <br /> Sheriff Tarsy attempts to coordinate a response to the shooting, but it proves difficult. An explosion in the front office kills the first police officer to respond. Anna is sent to survey the damage, but along the way she encounters Zoe, and is killed in the resulting fight. A police officer arrive at Tristan's home only to find that he has murdered his parents. The media picks up the livestream, much to Tristan's delight, and he begins removing students from their classrooms where they are sheltered in place. <br /> <br /> Kip encounters Zoe and chases after her, but is quickly subdued. Handcuffed, Kip admits his motivation for the shooting was retaliation for an incident that occurred in Middle School. Zoe points out that Kip has murdered several innocent students who had nothing to do with the incident. Zoe contacts the Sheriff and tells him that he needs to direct the media's cameras away from the school so she can safely evacuate students. Sheriff Tarsy calls Tristan live on-air to provide cover, but Tristan soon realizes the ruse. Tristan demands Zoe reveal herself to him, threatening to kill his hostages if she doesn't.<br /> <br /> Zoe returns to Kip, who expresses remorse for what he has done. As partial atonement for his crimes, Zoe has Kip attack Tristan, and in the ensuing chaos escapes with an injured Lewis. Zoe reveals that she also has feelings for Lewis, but that she has a hard time expressing them. Lewis warns Zoe that the white van is filled with explosives. Chris is sent to kill Zoe, but he is instead killed by Todd who has taken a sniping position outside the school. Zoe hijacks the livestream, telling Tristan that he will not be remembered because people will only remember her. <br /> <br /> Tristan rigs the van to explode and escapes with a single hostage and an explosive. Zoe removes the van from the cafeteria, causing it to explode in the parking lot. Zoe then tries to pursue Tristan, but is mistakenly arrested. Outside the school, Zoe meets Sheriff Tarsy, who thanks her for her actions and tells her Tristan died in an explosion. Zoe meets with her father, and the two affirm their love for each other. Zoe sees Tristan escaping the scene, having faked his own death. Determined to end it, Zoe retrieves her father's rifle and shoots Tristan before he can flee the country. Standing above Tristan, Zoe lets Tristan bleed out, telling him that it's what he deserves for what he has done.<br /> <br /> ==Cast==<br /> * [[Thomas Jane]] as Todd Hull<br /> * [[Radha Mitchell]] as Jennifer Hull<br /> * [[Isabel May]] as Zoe Hull<br /> * Eli Brown as Tristan Voy<br /> * Olly Sholotan as Lewis Washington<br /> * [[Treat Williams]] as Sheriff Tarsy<br /> * [[Barbara Crampton]] as Mrs. Crawford<br /> * [[Cyrus Arnold]] as Kip Quade<br /> * Britton Sear as Chris Jelick<br /> * Catherine Davis as Anna Jelick<br /> <br /> ==Production==<br /> In December 2019, it was announced [[Thomas Jane]], [[Radha Mitchell]], [[Isabel May]], Eli Brown, Olly Sholotan, [[Treat Williams]], [[Barbara Crampton]], [[Cyrus Arnold]], Britton Sear and Catherine Davis had joined the cast of the film, with [[Kyle Rankin]] directing from a screenplay he wrote, with Rebeller distributing.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|url=https://deadline.com/2019/12/school-shooting-pic-run-hide-fight-shot-secret-night-of-the-living-deb-director-first-release-genre-label-rebeller-1202807607/|title=School Shooting Drama ‘Run Hide Fight’, Made In Secret By ‘Night Of The Living Deb’ Director, To Be First Release From New Genre Label Rebeller|website=[[Deadline Hollywood]]|first=Tom|last=Grater|date=December 17, 2019|accessdate=August 11, 2020}}&lt;/ref&gt;<br /> <br /> ==Release==<br /> The film had its world premiere at the [[Venice Film Festival]] in September 2020.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|url=https://deadline.com/2020/08/venice-film-festival-adds-luca-guadagnino-school-shooting-drama-1203009899/|title=Venice Film Festival Adds Luca Guadagnino Pandemic-Themed Short &amp; School Shooting Thriller ‘Run Hide Fight’|website=Deadline Hollywood|first=Andreas|last=Wiseman|date=August 11, 2020|accessdate=August 11, 2020}}&lt;/ref&gt;<br /> <br /> ''[[The Daily Wire]]'' acquired the North American distribution rights to the film, and it premiered on their platform on January 14, 2021.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|date=2021-01-04|title=WATCH THE TRAILER: The Daily Wire To Premiere First Film on January 14|url=https://www.dailywire.com/news/watch-the-trailer-the-daily-wire-to-premiere-first-film|access-date=2021-01-04|website=The Daily Wire|language=en}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|title=The Daily Wire Makes First Foray Into Film &amp; TV With School Shooting Movie ‘Run Hide Fight’; Right-Wing Site Developing Two TV Series|url=https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/daily-wire-makes-first-foray-140032704.html|access-date=2021-01-04|website=www.yahoo.com|language=en-US}}&lt;/ref&gt;<br /> <br /> ==Reception==<br /> Guy Lodge of ''[[Variety (magazine)|Variety]]'' compared the film to a cross between ''[[Elephant (2003 film)|Elephant]]'' and ''[[The Hunger Games (film)|The Hunger Games]]''.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|url=https://variety.com/2020/film/reviews/run-hide-fight-review-hunters-become-prey-in-a-crass-wildly-misjudged-school-shooting-thriller-1234765063/|title=‘Run Hide Fight’ Review: Hunters Become Prey in a Crass, Wildly Misjudged School-Shooting Thriller|first1=Guy|last1=Lodge|first2=Guy|last2=Lodge|date=September 10, 2020}}&lt;/ref&gt; David Rooney of ''[[The Hollywood Reporter]]'' stated, &quot;But half-hearted posturing aside, this is ''[[Die Hard]]'' in a high school, with a 17-year-old female [[John McClane]] getting motivational input from her dead cancer mom as she dismantles the murderous plot using little more than gut instincts.&quot;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|url=https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/run-hide-fight-film-review-venice-2020|title='Run Hide Fight': Film Review &amp;#124; Venice 2020 &amp;#124; Hollywood Reporter|website=www.hollywoodreporter.com}}&lt;/ref&gt; David Ehrlich of [[IndieWire]] criticized director Rankin for several of the [[trope (cinema)|trope]]s he implemented.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|url=https://www.indiewire.com/2020/09/run-hide-fight-review-1234585582/|title=‘Run Hide Fight’ Review: Glib Cinestate Thriller Turns a School Shooting into a Clichéd Action Movie|first1=David|last1=Ehrlich|first2=David|last2=Ehrlich|date=September 10, 2020}}&lt;/ref&gt; [[Robbie Collin]] of ''[[The Daily Telegraph|The Telegraph]]'' compared the ringleader of the school shooters to the [[Joker (The Dark Knight)|Joker]] from ''[[The Dark Knight (film)|The Dark Knight]]'' and stated that &quot;May's performance feels as heroic as the character she's playing.&quot;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|url=https://www.telegraph.co.uk/films/2020/09/10/run-hide-fight-reviewvenice-film-festival-high-school-shooting/|title=Run Hide Fight review, Venice Film Festival: high school shooting thriller fatally in thrall to The Dark Knight|first=Robbie|last=Collin|date=September 10, 2020|via=www.telegraph.co.uk}}&lt;/ref&gt;<br /> <br /> ==References==<br /> {{Reflist}}<br /> <br /> ==External links==<br /> * {{IMDb title|11456054}}<br /> * {{Rotten Tomatoes|run_hide_fight}}<br /> <br /> [[Category:2020 films]]<br /> [[Category:2020 action drama films]]<br /> [[Category:American films]]<br /> [[Category:American action drama films]]<br /> [[Category:Films about murderers]]<br /> [[Category:Films about school violence]]<br /> [[Category:Films about mass murder]]<br /> <br /> <br /> {{2020s-drama-film-stub}}</div> Battlefront228 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Run_Hide_Fight&diff=1000883021 Run Hide Fight 2021-01-17T05:42:01Z <p>Battlefront228: Plot Summary</p> <hr /> <div>{{short description|2020 film directed by Kyle Rankin}}<br /> {{Infobox film<br /> | name = Run Hide Fight<br /> | image = <br /> | alt = <br /> | caption = <br /> | director = [[Kyle Rankin]]<br /> | producer = {{Plainlist|<br /> * Amanda Presmyk<br /> * [[Dallas Sonnier]]<br /> }}<br /> | writer = Kyle Rankin<br /> | starring = {{Plainlist|<br /> * [[Thomas Jane]]<br /> * [[Radha Mitchell]]<br /> * [[Isabel May]]<br /> }}<br /> | music = Mondo Boys<br /> | cinematography = Darin Moran<br /> | editing = Matthew Lorentz<br /> | production_companies = [[Cinestate]]<br /> | distributor = [[The Daily Wire]]<br /> | released = {{Film date|2020|09|10|[[Venice Film Festival|Venice]]|ref1=&lt;ref name=venice&gt;{{cite web|url=https://www.labiennale.org/en/cinema/2020/out-competition/run-hide-fight|title=Run Hide Fight|work=Venice Film Fesitval|access-date=August 29, 2020}}&lt;/ref&gt;}}<br /> | runtime = 109 minutes&lt;ref name=venice /&gt;<br /> | country = United States<br /> | language = English<br /> | budget = <br /> | gross = <br /> }}<br /> <br /> '''''Run Hide Fight''''' is a 2020 American [[action thriller film]] written and directed by [[Kyle Rankin]]. Starring [[Thomas Jane]], [[Radha Mitchell]] and [[Isabel May]], it follows a high school sieged by a quartet of [[school shooting|school shooters]].<br /> <br /> The film had its world premiere at the [[Venice Film Festival]] in September 2020.<br /> <br /> ==Plot==<br /> <br /> Zoe Hull struggles to come to grips with the death of her mother, causing her relationship with her father, Todd, to become strained. On the way to school, Zoe witnesses classmate Chris Jelick planting a strange device in a field, but writes it off as a prank. At school, Zoe's best friend Lewis attempts to ask her to the Prom, but it backfires and Zoe leaves for the bathroom to avoid the situation. <br /> <br /> Around town several incendiary devices are set off, distracting first responders and clogging up the roads. A large white van drives into the school cafeteria carrying four school shooters. Leader Tristan Voy orders his accomplices Chris, Anna Jelick and Kip Quade to begin killing students. Tristan then orders the surviving students to begin live streaming the shooting. Lewis, who has access to the school's Facebook page, is tasked with recording Tristan. <br /> <br /> Zoe crawls through the bathroom ceiling and is able to escape the school. She begins warning students and helping them escape. Tristan calls the front office to alert them of the shooting. Because school protocol requires that the shooting be confirmed, the school's principal and security guard are sent to the cafeteria to investigate. The principal attempts to talk Tristan down, blaming himself for Tristan's rage. However, Tristan admits his only motivation is to cause mayhem. Tristan kills the principal but allows the security guard to escape, commenting on how unprepared the guard was for the situation at hand. With the situation finally confirmed, the front office calls a lockdown. <br /> <br /> Sheriff Tarsy attempts to coordinate a response to the shooting, but it proves difficult. An explosion in the front office kills the first police officer to respond. Anna is sent to survey the damage, but along the way she encounters Zoe, and is killed in the resulting fight. A police officer arrive at Tristan's home only to find that he has already murdered his parents. The media picks up the livestream, much to Tristan's enthusiasm, and he begins removing students from their classrooms where they are sheltered in place. <br /> <br /> Kip encounters Zoe and chases after her, but is subdued using a fire extinguisher. Handcuffed, Kip admits his motivation for the shooting was retaliation for an incident that occurred in Middle School. Zoe points out that Kip has murdered several innocent students, most who had nothing to do with the incident. Zoe contacts the Sheriff and tells him that he needs to get the media cameras off the school so she can safely evacuate students. Sheriff Tarsy calls Tristan live on-air to provide cover, but Tristan soon realizes the ruse. Tristan demands Zoe reveal herself to him, threatening to kill his hostages if she doesn't.<br /> <br /> Zoe returns to Kip, who expresses remorse for what he has done. Zoe offers him a way to partially atone for what he has done. Zoe has Kip attack Tristan, and in the ensuing chaos escapes with an injured Lewis. Zoe reveals that she also has feelings for Lewis, and that she just has a hard time expressing them. Chris is sent to kill Zoe, but he is killed by Todd who has taken a sniping position outside the school. Lewis tells Zoe that the white van is filled with explosives. Zoe hijacks the livestream, telling Tristan that he will not be remembered because people will only remember her. <br /> <br /> Tristan rigs the van to explode and escapes with a single hostage and an explosive. Zoe reverses the van, causing it to explode in the parking lot. Zoe then tries to pursue Tristan, but is mistakenly arrested. Outside the school, Zoe meets Sheriff Tarsy, who thanks her for her actions and tells her Tristan died in an explosion. Zoe meets with her father, and the two affirm their love for each other. Zoe sees Tristan escaping the scene, having faked his own death. Determined to end it, Zoe retrieves her father's rifle and shoots Tristan before he can flee the country. Standing above Tristan, Zoe lets Tristan bleed out, telling him that it's what he deserves for what he has done. <br /> <br /> ==Cast==<br /> * [[Thomas Jane]] as Todd Hull<br /> * [[Radha Mitchell]] as Jennifer Hull<br /> * [[Isabel May]] as Zoe Hull<br /> * Eli Brown as Tristan Voy<br /> * Olly Sholotan as Lewis Washington<br /> * [[Treat Williams]] as Sheriff Tarsy<br /> * [[Barbara Crampton]] as Mrs. Crawford<br /> * [[Cyrus Arnold]] as Kip Quade<br /> * Britton Sear as Chris Jelick<br /> * Catherine Davis as Anna Jelick<br /> <br /> ==Production==<br /> In December 2019, it was announced [[Thomas Jane]], [[Radha Mitchell]], [[Isabel May]], Eli Brown, Olly Sholotan, [[Treat Williams]], [[Barbara Crampton]], [[Cyrus Arnold]], Britton Sear and Catherine Davis had joined the cast of the film, with [[Kyle Rankin]] directing from a screenplay he wrote, with Rebeller distributing.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|url=https://deadline.com/2019/12/school-shooting-pic-run-hide-fight-shot-secret-night-of-the-living-deb-director-first-release-genre-label-rebeller-1202807607/|title=School Shooting Drama ‘Run Hide Fight’, Made In Secret By ‘Night Of The Living Deb’ Director, To Be First Release From New Genre Label Rebeller|website=[[Deadline Hollywood]]|first=Tom|last=Grater|date=December 17, 2019|accessdate=August 11, 2020}}&lt;/ref&gt;<br /> <br /> ==Release==<br /> The film had its world premiere at the [[Venice Film Festival]] in September 2020.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|url=https://deadline.com/2020/08/venice-film-festival-adds-luca-guadagnino-school-shooting-drama-1203009899/|title=Venice Film Festival Adds Luca Guadagnino Pandemic-Themed Short &amp; School Shooting Thriller ‘Run Hide Fight’|website=Deadline Hollywood|first=Andreas|last=Wiseman|date=August 11, 2020|accessdate=August 11, 2020}}&lt;/ref&gt;<br /> <br /> ''[[The Daily Wire]]'' acquired the North American distribution rights to the film, and it premiered on their platform on January 14, 2021.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|date=2021-01-04|title=WATCH THE TRAILER: The Daily Wire To Premiere First Film on January 14|url=https://www.dailywire.com/news/watch-the-trailer-the-daily-wire-to-premiere-first-film|access-date=2021-01-04|website=The Daily Wire|language=en}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|title=The Daily Wire Makes First Foray Into Film &amp; TV With School Shooting Movie ‘Run Hide Fight’; Right-Wing Site Developing Two TV Series|url=https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/daily-wire-makes-first-foray-140032704.html|access-date=2021-01-04|website=www.yahoo.com|language=en-US}}&lt;/ref&gt;<br /> <br /> ==Reception==<br /> Guy Lodge of ''[[Variety (magazine)|Variety]]'' compared the film to a cross between ''[[Elephant (2003 film)|Elephant]]'' and ''[[The Hunger Games (film)|The Hunger Games]]''.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|url=https://variety.com/2020/film/reviews/run-hide-fight-review-hunters-become-prey-in-a-crass-wildly-misjudged-school-shooting-thriller-1234765063/|title=‘Run Hide Fight’ Review: Hunters Become Prey in a Crass, Wildly Misjudged School-Shooting Thriller|first1=Guy|last1=Lodge|first2=Guy|last2=Lodge|date=September 10, 2020}}&lt;/ref&gt; David Rooney of ''[[The Hollywood Reporter]]'' stated, &quot;But half-hearted posturing aside, this is ''[[Die Hard]]'' in a high school, with a 17-year-old female [[John McClane]] getting motivational input from her dead cancer mom as she dismantles the murderous plot using little more than gut instincts.&quot;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|url=https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/run-hide-fight-film-review-venice-2020|title='Run Hide Fight': Film Review &amp;#124; Venice 2020 &amp;#124; Hollywood Reporter|website=www.hollywoodreporter.com}}&lt;/ref&gt; David Ehrlich of [[IndieWire]] criticized director Rankin for several of the [[trope (cinema)|trope]]s he implemented.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|url=https://www.indiewire.com/2020/09/run-hide-fight-review-1234585582/|title=‘Run Hide Fight’ Review: Glib Cinestate Thriller Turns a School Shooting into a Clichéd Action Movie|first1=David|last1=Ehrlich|first2=David|last2=Ehrlich|date=September 10, 2020}}&lt;/ref&gt; [[Robbie Collin]] of ''[[The Daily Telegraph|The Telegraph]]'' compared the ringleader of the school shooters to the [[Joker (The Dark Knight)|Joker]] from ''[[The Dark Knight (film)|The Dark Knight]]'' and stated that &quot;May's performance feels as heroic as the character she's playing.&quot;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|url=https://www.telegraph.co.uk/films/2020/09/10/run-hide-fight-reviewvenice-film-festival-high-school-shooting/|title=Run Hide Fight review, Venice Film Festival: high school shooting thriller fatally in thrall to The Dark Knight|first=Robbie|last=Collin|date=September 10, 2020|via=www.telegraph.co.uk}}&lt;/ref&gt;<br /> <br /> ==References==<br /> {{Reflist}}<br /> <br /> ==External links==<br /> * {{IMDb title|11456054}}<br /> * {{Rotten Tomatoes|run_hide_fight}}<br /> <br /> [[Category:2020 films]]<br /> [[Category:2020 action drama films]]<br /> [[Category:American films]]<br /> [[Category:American action drama films]]<br /> [[Category:Films about murderers]]<br /> [[Category:Films about school violence]]<br /> [[Category:Films about mass murder]]<br /> <br /> <br /> {{2020s-drama-film-stub}}</div> Battlefront228 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:Battlefront228&diff=727873068 User:Battlefront228 2016-07-01T19:47:37Z <p>Battlefront228: </p> <hr /> <div>&quot;They who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety&quot; - Benjamin Franklin</div> Battlefront228 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:List_of_Islamist_terrorist_attacks&diff=727872470 Talk:List of Islamist terrorist attacks 2016-07-01T19:42:54Z <p>Battlefront228: /* Survey */</p> <hr /> <div>{{Old AfD multi| date = 3 April 2014 (UTC) | result = '''keep''' | page = List of Islamic terrorist attacks }} <br /> {{WikiProjectBannerShell|1=<br /> {{WikiProject Terrorism|class=List|importance=Top}}<br /> {{WikiProject Islam|Islam and Controversy=yes|class=List|importance=High}}<br /> {{WikiProject Politics|class=List|importance=High}}<br /> {{WikiProject Conservatism|class=List|importance=Mid}}<br /> }}<br /> {{press | author=Lucas, Nolan|date=June 30, 2016|url=http://www.breitbart.com/tech/2016/06/30/wikipedia-removes-orlando-shooting-islamist-terror-attack-list/?utm_source=facebook&amp;utm_medium=social |title=Wikipedia Removes Orlando Shooting From ‘Islamist Terror Attack’ List|org=''[[Breitbart]]''}}<br /> {{User:MiszaBot/config<br /> |archiveheader = {{talk archive navigation}}<br /> |maxarchivesize = 100K<br /> |counter = 3<br /> |minthreadsleft = 2<br /> |minthreadstoarchive = 1<br /> |algo = old(90d)<br /> |archive = Talk:List of Islamist terrorist attacks/Archive %(counter)d<br /> }}<br /> {{User:HBC Archive Indexerbot/OptIn |target=/Archive index |mask=/Archive &lt;#&gt; |leading_zeros=0 |indexhere=yes}}<br /> {{Archive box|auto=yes|search=yes | bot = Lowercase sigmabot III | age = 90 |index=/Archive index}}<br /> <br /> ==Attacks in Israel==<br /> I realize there have been an enormous debate about what to label as &quot;islamic terrorism&quot;, I would just like to point out to the fact that there is an abnormally large amount of attacks listed in Israel that have been considered as religiously motivated rather than politically. Has anyone checked to see if the claim is supported by reliable sources? [[User:Makeandtoss|Makeandtoss]] ([[User talk:Makeandtoss|talk]]) 14:37, 4 April 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Switching to boxes ==<br /> <br /> Currently working on the attacks from 2002-2009, so if you were about to work on them, don't waste your time. I should be done very soon. [[User:Ralphw|Ralphw]] ([[User talk:Ralphw|talk]]) 00:52, 3 May 2016 (UTC)<br /> :I just finished the 2002 one, I'm going to try and finish the next years during the next week or so. [[User:Ralphw|Ralphw]] ([[User talk:Ralphw|talk]]) 03:17, 3 May 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::What's the status of this? [[User:Natureium|Natureium]] ([[User talk:Natureium|talk]]) 18:27, 29 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ==Flags==<br /> Why exactly have the flags that were here until the 1st of May 2016 been removed and replaced with country names alone? [[Special:Contributions/119.224.86.235|119.224.86.235]] ([[User talk:119.224.86.235|talk]]) 01:23, 13 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :My guess is [[WP:FLAGCRUFT]]. But not sure. We really don't need flags generally. [[User:EvergreenFir|'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:#8b00ff;&quot;&gt;Eve&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#6528c2;&quot;&gt;rgr&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#3f5184;&quot;&gt;een&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#197947;&quot;&gt;Fir&lt;/span&gt;''']] [[User talk:EvergreenFir|(talk)]] &lt;small&gt;Please &amp;#123;&amp;#123;[[Template:re|re]]&amp;#125;&amp;#125;&lt;/small&gt; 01:43, 13 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::As I wrote in my [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_Islamist_terrorist_attacks&amp;diff=718020549&amp;oldid=718018377 edit summary] when I removed them, [[WP:WORDPRECEDENT|Words as the primary means of communication]]/[[WP:EGG]], [[MOS:FLAG]], and [[Talk:List of Islamist terrorist attacks/Archive 3#RFc for major restructuring]], where the closer noted &quot;strong support for no flags&quot;. —&amp;nbsp;[[User:Malik Shabazz|Malik Shabazz]]&amp;nbsp;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Malik Shabazz|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt;/&lt;sub&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Malik Shabazz|Stalk]]&lt;/sub&gt; 02:34, 13 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::: IMO, the flags were helpful to quickly see which country the attack happened in, but if it's against the wiki rules, I'm not even going to argue. [[User:R00b07|R00b07]] ([[User talk:R00b07|talk]]) 02:02, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == 'Splain, Lucy. ==<br /> <br /> {{ping|Malik Shabazz}} [[Christian terrorism]]. No one had to invent a new word—Christist, Christianist, ''papist'' (gasp! the offensiveness!), whatever—to describe ''that'', and that's considered perfectly NPOV. Why would &quot;Islamic&quot; be any different, especially given that the main article is [[Islamic terrorism]]? '''''[[User:Jujutsuan|&lt;font color=&quot;green&quot;&gt;Jujutsuan&lt;/font&gt;]]''''' (&lt;small&gt;Please notify with &amp;#123;&amp;#123;[[Template:re|re]]&amp;#125;&amp;#125;&lt;/small&gt; &amp;#124; [[User talk:Jujutsuan|talk]] &amp;#x7C; [[Special:Contributions/Jujutsuan|contribs]]) 03:02, 13 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :if you don't understand the difference between Islamic and Islamist, [[wiktionary]] is that way. —&amp;nbsp;[[User:Malik Shabazz|Malik Shabazz]]&amp;nbsp;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Malik Shabazz|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt;/&lt;sub&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Malik Shabazz|Stalk]]&lt;/sub&gt; 03:09, 13 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::Ever heard of [[WP:CIVIL]]? You started with the attitude in your snarky edit summary. I know the difference. But a Muslim committing an act of terrorism ''in the name of Islam'' is, by definition, [[Islamic terrorism]]. Islamism is a relgio-political ideology, and one source, but not the only source, of [[Islamic terrorism]]. And the main page is called [[Islamic terrorism]]. Have I mentioned that the main page is called [[Islamic terrorism|IslamIC terrorism]]?? '''''[[User:Jujutsuan|&lt;font color=&quot;green&quot;&gt;Jujutsuan&lt;/font&gt;]]''''' (&lt;small&gt;Please notify with &amp;#123;&amp;#123;[[Template:re|re]]&amp;#125;&amp;#125;&lt;/small&gt; &amp;#124; [[User talk:Jujutsuan|talk]] &amp;#x7C; [[Special:Contributions/Jujutsuan|contribs]]) 03:13, 13 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::Have I mentioned that I don't give a *bleep* what the morons who edit the &quot;main page&quot; choose to call it? This is a list of Islamist attacks, and has been since it was moved to this title (following a [[Talk:List of Islamist terrorist attacks/Archive 2#Requested move 26 March 2015|move discussion]]) more than a year ago. Did you think that maybe you should move the other article to match this article's title? The morons who edit that page can't agree what it's about or find a source for their made-up '''definition''' of what &quot;Islamic terrorism&quot; is. So while that article is fully protected, you come here, to an article you probably never even read before today, and move it. Nice work. And ''I'' have some &quot;'splaining&quot; to do. Nice touch. Have I mentioned that I don't give a fuck what the morons who edit the &quot;main page&quot; choose to call it? —&amp;nbsp;[[User:Malik Shabazz|Malik Shabazz]]&amp;nbsp;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Malik Shabazz|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt;/&lt;sub&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Malik Shabazz|Stalk]]&lt;/sub&gt; 03:35, 13 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::List articles don't set precedent of any degree of force. That's the privilege of main articles, which lists by default aren't. Yes, you have, about three times. How original of you. You've also mentioned that they're morons (and me too, by extension), plus vulgarities. &quot;Nice work.&quot; (See, I give attribution when I copy something.) '''''[[User:Jujutsuan|&lt;font color=&quot;green&quot;&gt;Jujutsuan&lt;/font&gt;]]''''' (&lt;small&gt;Please notify with &amp;#123;&amp;#123;[[Template:re|re]]&amp;#125;&amp;#125;&lt;/small&gt; &amp;#124; [[User talk:Jujutsuan|talk]] &amp;#x7C; [[Special:Contributions/Jujutsuan|contribs]]) 03:43, 13 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::::Malik's point about the meaning of the terms is correct, even if accompanied by incivilities. The move is contested. I agree with Malik's point; the attacks are Islamist (based in fundamentalist or radical Islam). [[User:EvergreenFir|'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:#8b00ff;&quot;&gt;Eve&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#6528c2;&quot;&gt;rgr&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#3f5184;&quot;&gt;een&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#197947;&quot;&gt;Fir&lt;/span&gt;''']] [[User talk:EvergreenFir|(talk)]] &lt;small&gt;Please &amp;#123;&amp;#123;[[Template:re|re]]&amp;#125;&amp;#125;&lt;/small&gt; 04:32, 13 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::Also agree with Malik and EvergreenFir. You're obviously around long enough to know about the requirement for agreement on contentious moves. [[User:Bastun|&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Verdana, sans-serif&quot;&gt;Bastun&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Bastun|Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!]]&lt;/sup&gt; 09:19, 13 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Orlando shooting ==<br /> <br /> I have removed the 2016 Orlando nightclub shooting from this list. It does not meet the stated inclusion criteria for the list. The fact that ISIL has, via their media agency, made such a claim does not make it true. The FBI has not made such a determination. Including this entry in this article violates a number of Wikipedia policies including [[WP:OR]] and [[WP:NPOV]].- [[user: MrX|Mr]][[user talk:MrX|X]] 20:31, 19 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :Reverted removal per [[WP:BRD]]. Let's see...<br /> :*Terror attacks... check.<br /> :*by Islamist extremists... check.<br /> :*to further a '''perceived''' Islamic religious or political cause... check.<br /> :*have occurred globally... Orlando is on earth: check.<br /> :*The attackers have used such tactics as arson, vehicle rampage attacks, bomb threats, suicide attacks, bombings, '''spree shooting''', stabbings, hijackings, kidnappings and beheadings... check.<br /> :*The following is a list of Islamist terrorist attacks that have received significant press coverage since 1980... check.<br /> :The FBI is not the only RS to consider. Plenty of RS have determined it was an Islamic terrorist attack. Deserves inclusion. '''''[[User:Jujutsuan|&lt;font color=&quot;green&quot;&gt;Jujutsuan&lt;/font&gt;]]''''' (&lt;small&gt;Please notify with &amp;#123;&amp;#123;[[Template:re|re]]&amp;#125;&amp;#125;&lt;/small&gt; &amp;#124; [[User talk:Jujutsuan|talk]] &amp;#x7C; [[Special:Contributions/Jujutsuan|contribs]]) 20:48, 19 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::*Please cite one or more reliable sources that says that the Orlando shooting was conducted by &quot;Islamic extremists&quot;.<br /> ::*Please cite one or more reliable sources that state that Mateen was trying to further an &quot;Islamic religious or political cause&quot;<br /> :::Note that ISIL's media agency is not a reliable source for anything. Note also that the media speculation is not a substitute for facts.- [[user: MrX|Mr]][[user talk:MrX|X]] 21:06, 19 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::I've had misgivings about the Orlando shooting from the beginning. A [http://www.dictionary.com/browse/local-yokel local yokel] announced that the shooter in a homophobic mass shooting had pledged allegiance to ISIL, NBC News announced it as if it were a fact, and all the world media ran with it, sometimes attributing it to NBC News and sometimes not. That doesn't make a homophobic mass shooting an Islamist terrorist attack. How about citing a real expert in Islamism or terrorism? —&amp;nbsp;[[User:Malik Shabazz|Malik Shabazz]]&amp;nbsp;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Malik Shabazz|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt;/&lt;sub&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Malik Shabazz|Stalk]]&lt;/sub&gt; 21:59, 19 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::Agreed. By later accounts, this appears to have been a combination of some mixed up homophobia/self-hate with some attempted justification on the part of the perpetrator and bandwagon-jumping by ISIL. [[User:Bastun|&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Verdana, sans-serif&quot;&gt;Bastun&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Bastun|Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!]]&lt;/sup&gt; 22:49, 19 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::{{ec}} The case for calling this an &quot;Islamist terrorist attack&quot; is very weak if we follow the sources that I've seen. The sources in the article simple do not support the material in the article. The Daily Mail article says that &quot;ISIS has claimed responsibility&quot;. ISIS is a fringe source and their view can't be asserted in Wikipedia's voice. The Washington Post article merely says that Mateen pledged allegiance to ISIL{{emdash}}again, insufficient for making a conclusion that the shooting was an &quot;Islamist terrorist attack&quot; in Wikipedia's voice. Someone needs to present sources that actually says the Orlando shooting was an Islamist terrorist attack, or it has to be removed per [[WP:V]] and [[WP:OR]]. {{U|Jujutsuan}}, you said {{tq|&quot;Plenty of RS have determined it was an Islamic terrorist attack.&quot;}} Please provide links to some sources that actually say that. - [[user: MrX|Mr]][[user talk:MrX|X]] 23:09, 19 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::::Is [http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/13/us/orlando-nightclub-shooting.html?_r=0 NYT] good enough for you? Not to mention the ''[http://www.nationalreview.com/article/436507/orlando-attack-was-islamic-terrorism-obama-still-refuses-name-it National Review]'' (POV, yes, but reputable) and [http://www.cbsnews.com/news/orlando-shooting-investigation-gunman-omar-mateen-911-call/ CBS]. He pledged allegiance to ISIS; that can ''only mean'' he was an Islamic terrorist, at least in his own mind (which is, incidentally, what makes someone an ''Islamic'' terrorist instead of just a generic terrorist; ISIS leadership didn't have to plan it or have any contact with Mateen in order for him to have done it in their name and according to (his interpretation of) their ideology/exegesis.). No &quot;experts on Islamism&quot; are needed to confirm the obvious when he's stated his motives in plain English. It doesn't even matter if it was a secondary motive; it was still at least part of his rationale. '''''[[User:Jujutsuan|&lt;font color=&quot;green&quot;&gt;Jujutsuan&lt;/font&gt;]]''''' (&lt;small&gt;Please notify with &amp;#123;&amp;#123;[[Template:re|re]]&amp;#125;&amp;#125;&lt;/small&gt; &amp;#124; [[User talk:Jujutsuan|talk]] &amp;#x7C; [[Special:Contributions/Jujutsuan|contribs]]) 00:27, 20 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::::::None of those sources state that the shooting was an &quot;Islamist terrorist attack&quot;. In fact, one source says that according to FBI Director James Comey, &quot;the shooter’s past comments about Islamist groups were &quot;inflammatory and contradictory.&quot;. - [[user: MrX|Mr]][[user talk:MrX|X]] 00:41, 20 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::::::The ''National Review'' may (or may not) be reputable, but it is absolutely not a [[WP:reliable source|reliable source]] for facts. And why are the other two sources nearly a week old? Have authorities learned nothing about the attack since last Monday morning? —&amp;nbsp;[[User:MShabazz|MShabazz]]&amp;nbsp;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Malik Shabazz|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt;/&lt;sub&gt;[[Special:Contributions/MShabazz|Stalk]]&lt;/sub&gt; 01:12, 20 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::::::I'm conflicted on this at the moment. We do &quot;variability, not truth&quot;, but RS are starting to cast doubt on the event as being Islamist extremism/terrorism. The classification as &quot;Islamist&quot; is what's being questioned. Since there's &quot;no deadline&quot; and all, it may be prudent to exclude it for now until a more firm conclusion is given by investigators. At the same time, if it is included, it can always be removed if things change. [[User:EvergreenFir|'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:#8b00ff;&quot;&gt;Eve&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#6528c2;&quot;&gt;rgr&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#3f5184;&quot;&gt;een&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#197947;&quot;&gt;Fir&lt;/span&gt;''']] [[User talk:EvergreenFir|(talk)]] &lt;small&gt;Please &amp;#123;&amp;#123;[[Template:re|re]]&amp;#125;&amp;#125;&lt;/small&gt; 02:07, 20 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::::::::Regarding ''National Review'', [[WP:BIASED]] says: &lt;font color=green&gt;&quot;Wikipedia articles are required to present a neutral point of view. However, reliable sources are not required to be neutral, unbiased, or objective.&quot;&lt;/font&gt; So why exactly is it not RS-worthy??<br /> :::::::::Regarding your other complaints, it has been determined that he swore his allegiance to ISIS (confused, contradictory, or otherwise). Are you saying ISIS isn't Islamist or Islamic terrorist? This is really very simple. '''''[[User:Jujutsuan|&lt;font color=&quot;green&quot;&gt;Jujutsuan&lt;/font&gt;]]''''' (&lt;small&gt;Please notify with &amp;#123;&amp;#123;[[Template:re|re]]&amp;#125;&amp;#125;&lt;/small&gt; &amp;#124; [[User talk:Jujutsuan|talk]] &amp;#x7C; [[Special:Contributions/Jujutsuan|contribs]]) 03:39, 20 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::::::::Him swearing allegiance matters less than how RS characterize the attack. I may be determined his actions were not Islamist terrorism despite him trying to make them appear to be so. But what matters here is what RS call it. That's why I'm conflicted: RS characterizations of events are changing as the information available changes. So too must Wikipedia change in response to the RS. But if we see things are influx, contradictory, or being questioned by top-quality RS and investigators alike, we do have the option to postpone our decisions pending further information. There is not deadline and no need to publish the latest, breaking news (NOTNEWS after all). I think within a week we'll have a better idea of what to do. Until then, I'm not going to commit one way or the other. [[User:EvergreenFir|'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:#8b00ff;&quot;&gt;Eve&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#6528c2;&quot;&gt;rgr&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#3f5184;&quot;&gt;een&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#197947;&quot;&gt;Fir&lt;/span&gt;''']] [[User talk:EvergreenFir|(talk)]] &lt;small&gt;Please &amp;#123;&amp;#123;[[Template:re|re]]&amp;#125;&amp;#125;&lt;/small&gt; 03:59, 20 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::::::::::Produce the RS that contradicts the claim that he was a self-radicalized islamic terrorist. [[User:Mrdthree|Mrdthree]] ([[User talk:Mrdthree|talk]]) 12:17, 20 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::::::::The world's asylums are full of people who claim they're [[Napoleon]]. If one of them attacks a psychiatric nurse, we don't attribute the attack to the [[First French Empire|French Empire]] - even if clickbaity tabloids or reactionary sources do. [[User:Bastun|&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Verdana, sans-serif&quot;&gt;Bastun&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Bastun|Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!]]&lt;/sup&gt; 08:56, 20 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::::::::::The Director of the FBI said he was a self radicalized islamic extremist. Your are making unsourced speculation [[User:Mrdthree|Mrdthree]] ([[User talk:Mrdthree|talk]]) 12:17, 20 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::::::::::Here's a quote and source: {{tq|In fact, intelligence officials and investigators say they're &quot;becoming increasingly convinced that the motive for this attack had very little — or maybe nothing — to do with ISIS.&quot;}} [http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2016/06/18/482621690/investigators-say-orlando-shooter-showed-few-warning-signs-of-radicalization]. Also check out [https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2016/06/13/omar-mateen-may-not-have-understood-the-difference-between-isis-al-qaeda-and-hezbollah/]. There's questions being raised by investigators about whether or not this was truly Islamist terrorism or just someone using it as an excuse/cover. [[User:EvergreenFir|'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:#8b00ff;&quot;&gt;Eve&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#6528c2;&quot;&gt;rgr&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#3f5184;&quot;&gt;een&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#197947;&quot;&gt;Fir&lt;/span&gt;''']] [[User talk:EvergreenFir|(talk)]] &lt;small&gt;Please &amp;#123;&amp;#123;[[Template:re|re]]&amp;#125;&amp;#125;&lt;/small&gt; 20:45, 20 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::::::::::::Again the NPR story is the only source on the claim and its based on anonymous sources that contradict the statements of officials on the record, including the president. The other story is about a comment he made to coworkers 3 years earlier. It is grasping at straws to psychoanalyze a dead man who had no psychiatric problems to the point that it overrides what he said he did when its consistent with his past behavior.[[User:Mrdthree|Mrdthree]] ([[User talk:Mrdthree|talk]]) 22:28, 21 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::Multiple official and news sources stated that the killer is a terrorist. Multiple official and news sources say that he was a self-radicalized islamist. Deeper investigation into triggers are speculative. A growing list is below.[[User:Mrdthree|Mrdthree]] ([[User talk:Mrdthree|talk]]) 10:25, 20 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::: Miami Herald: http://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/community/miami-dade/article83819372.html, 'Terror enemy No. 1: Lone wolves like Orlando killer Omar Mateen'; cites President Obama President Barack Obama said “it is increasingly clear” that the killer, a U.S. citizen, became “radicalized” by “extremist information and propaganda over the internet”. Comey, the FBI director, said no evidence gathered so far pointed to a “plot directed from outside the United States” or that the killer was a member of a foreign terrorist organization.[[User:Mrdthree|Mrdthree]] ([[User talk:Mrdthree|talk]]) 10:25, 20 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::: http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2016/06/orlando-shooters-motives-remain-unclear.html 'As Profile of Orlando Shooter Develops, Questions About His Motives Remain' But while nothing we've learned from further investigation into Mateen’s life has invalidated the theory that he was ultimately motivated by Islamic extremism, a profile has developed which, at this point, may align better with a typical mass-shooter than a man who was solely inspired by ISIS to become a jihadist.[[User:Mrdthree|Mrdthree]] ([[User talk:Mrdthree|talk]]) 10:25, 20 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::: http://www.cbsnews.com/news/fbi-to-release-transcript-of-calls-between-orlando-gunman-omar-mateen-police/ FBI to release transcript of calls between Orlando gunman, police At this point, Lynch said investigators do not have any information that reveals Mateen was being directed from overseas terrorist networks. Investigators, however, have found evidence of online radicalization.[[User:Mrdthree|Mrdthree]] ([[User talk:Mrdthree|talk]]) 10:25, 20 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/jun/13/pulse-nightclub-attack-shooter-radicalized-internet-orlando FBI and Obama confirm Omar Mateen was radicalized on the internet. 'Comey added that he was “highly confident” that Mateen had been radicalized at least in part online. In chorus with Obama he emphasized that there continued to be no evidence, however, of any direct plot, or direction of the shooter, by any foreign group or network.' [[User:Mrdthree|Mrdthree]] ([[User talk:Mrdthree|talk]]) 12:13, 20 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::Er, you do realise '''none''' of those quotes back what you're saying? Quite the opposite, in fact. [[User:Bastun|&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Verdana, sans-serif&quot;&gt;Bastun&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Bastun|Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!]]&lt;/sup&gt; 10:34, 20 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::: They all say he was a self-radicalized islamist. Isnt that what this is about?[[User:Mrdthree|Mrdthree]] ([[User talk:Mrdthree|talk]]) 10:40, 20 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::: So show the good faith brother. Here is the article https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/jun/13/pulse-nightclub-attack-shooter-radicalized-internet-orlando FBI and Obama confirm Omar Mateen was radicalized on the internet. Explain how this disproves he was an islamic radical. [[User:Mrdthree|Mrdthree]] ([[User talk:Mrdthree|talk]]) 12:02, 20 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::* &quot;No evidence gathered so far pointed to a plot directed from outside the US or that the killer was a member of a terrorist org&quot;; <br /> :::::* &quot;a profile has developed which, at this point, may align better with a typical mass-shooter than a man who was solely inspired by ISIS to become a jihadist.&quot;<br /> :::::* &quot;At this point, Lynch said investigators do not have any information that reveals Mateen was being directed from overseas terrorist networks.&quot;<br /> :::::* &quot;there continued to be no evidence, however, of any direct plot, or direction of the shooter, by any foreign group or network.&quot;<br /> :::::These, combined with other sources claiming Mateen was probably gay himself, point to a lone-wolf psychotic rather than any sort of organised terrorism. [[User:Bastun|&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Verdana, sans-serif&quot;&gt;Bastun&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Bastun|Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!]]&lt;/sup&gt; 12:42, 20 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::::: The last item is unsourced speculation. Where does it say this list excludes lone wolf islamic terrorism? [[User:Mrdthree|Mrdthree]] ([[User talk:Mrdthree|talk]]) 12:50, 20 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::::::As Bastun has aptly pointed out, the sources presented immediately above contradict the notion that the shooting was an Islamist terrorist attack. At best, they support the claim &quot;Mateen may have been radicalized over the internet&quot;. That is far too speculative to justify including the shooting on list of Islamist terrorist attacks. [[WP:OP|We simply can't make such leaps of logic]].- [[user: MrX|Mr]][[user talk:MrX|X]] 13:26, 20 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::::::The 911 call he made to the cops don't mention gays at all, it just mentions Islam and ISIL. I find it hard to believe the bending over backwards we see here to not call this Islamist terror. It is very well sourced and should be included. &quot;swears allegiance to ISIS&quot; is the next one down, and this attack is certainly more than that. The bias of editors not withstanding, the sources clearly show the inspiration for this attack.[[User:Sir Joseph|Sir Joseph]] &lt;sup&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;Green&quot;&gt;[[User_talk:Sir Joseph|(talk)]]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/sup&gt; 16:42, 20 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> {{od}}[https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2016/06/20/what-the-orlando-gunman-told-hostage-negotiators-and-dispatchers-during-his-rampage/ &quot;many questions remain unanswered. Investigators do not know ... Mateen’s reasons for attacking the popular LGBT nightspot.&quot;] From an article written '''today''' on the ''Washington Post'' website. Not week-old speculation, but the current status of the investigation. —&amp;nbsp;[[User:Malik Shabazz|Malik Shabazz]]&amp;nbsp;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Malik Shabazz|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt;/&lt;sub&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Malik Shabazz|Stalk]]&lt;/sub&gt; 16:53, 20 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :Right, we don't know everything yet, why he chose that or whatever. But we do know it was Islamic Terrorism. He said as such. The 911 calls say as such and the sources say as such. The shooter pledged support to ISIS, how is that not enough? It was enough for the France incident, it was enough for many other incidents. Why the sudden urge to not include very well sourced information? http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2016/06/19/lynch_partial_transcript_of_orlando_911_calls_will_have_references_to_isis_cut_out.html There is a difference between saying this was an ISIS attack or just saying this was Islamic Terror. We don't know if this was sponsored by ISIL and most likely wasn't, but it was Islamic Terror. Partial Transcript: http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/orlando-nightclub-massacre/fbi-releases-transcripts-911-calls-orlando-massacre-n595626 &quot;In these calls, the shooter, who '''identified himself as an Islamic soldier''', &quot;, &quot;: '''I pledge allegiance to [omitted]''' may God protect him [in Arabic], on behalf of [omitted].&quot; and more.[[User:Sir Joseph|Sir Joseph]] &lt;sup&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;Green&quot;&gt;[[User_talk:Sir Joseph|(talk)]]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/sup&gt; 16:56, 20 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> : You are selectively quoting the source. the source (FBI Assistant Special Agent in Charge Ron Hopper) went on to say ....agents think Mateen “was radicalized domestically,” rather than directed by any foreign terrorist group. This is what every reliable source with named sources states. Not my opinion. [[User:Mrdthree|Mrdthree]] ([[User talk:Mrdthree|talk]]) 05:03, 21 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::See above, re Napoleon. If he'd identified himself as a Martian, that still wouldn't make it an act of interplanetary terrorism. Per plenty of sources, the perpetrator seems to have been a disturbed individual, probably gay himself, which caused him all sorts of mental problems given his apparent contradictory religious beliefs. [[User:Bastun|&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Verdana, sans-serif&quot;&gt;Bastun&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Bastun|Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!]]&lt;/sup&gt; 18:22, 20 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::I guess that's one way to make sure there is no list of Islamic Terror acts. [[User:Sir Joseph|Sir Joseph]] &lt;sup&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;Green&quot;&gt;[[User_talk:Sir Joseph|(talk)]]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/sup&gt; 18:28, 20 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::No. It's one way to ensure that the list of Islam'''''ist''''' (notice the difference, it's important) terrorist acts - which I've added to myself - is '''accurate'''. [[User:Bastun|&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Verdana, sans-serif&quot;&gt;Bastun&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Bastun|Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!]]&lt;/sup&gt; 18:43, 20 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::* [https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/troubled-quiet-macho-angry-the-volatile-life-of-omar-mateen/2016/06/17/15229250-34a6-11e6-8758-d58e76e11b12_story.html &quot;Mateen appeared conflicted about his religion and his sexuality, according to dozens of interviews with those who knew him. He married twice, each time to a woman he had met online, even though he also seemed drawn to gay life and culture.&quot;]<br /> :::::* [http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/orlando-shooter-omar-mateen-had-gay-tendencies-according-to-ex-wife-as-pulse-patron-say-attacker-was-a7081041.html Orlando shooter Omar Mateen's ex-wife says he had 'gay tendencies' as Pulse patron describes attacker as 'a regular']<br /> :::::* [http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/news/orlando-shooter-omar-mateen-was-gay-former-classma/nrfwW/ The FBI is investigating reports that Orlando nightclub shooter Omar Mateen used gay dating apps and regularly visited Pulse before he shot more than 100 people inside, killing 49. One man said Mateen had asked him out, while another said they had chatted on a dating app].<br /> :::::Hardly your average Islamist terrorist... [[User:Bastun|&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Verdana, sans-serif&quot;&gt;Bastun&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Bastun|Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!]]&lt;/sup&gt; 19:11, 20 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::::Are you saying a gay person can't be a terrorist? Read the news today, there is no mention of his sexuality in the 911 transcripts, only Islam and terrorism related information was in the 911 call. [[User:Sir Joseph|Sir Joseph]] &lt;sup&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;Green&quot;&gt;[[User_talk:Sir Joseph|(talk)]]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/sup&gt; 19:40, 20 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::::I am saying the issue is a lot more complicated than &quot;He phoned 911 and said he was an Islamist terrorist&quot;. [[User:Bastun|&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Verdana, sans-serif&quot;&gt;Bastun&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Bastun|Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!]]&lt;/sup&gt; 19:48, 20 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::::::Then start to remove many of the items on the list where the &quot;terrorist claimed allegiance to ISIS.&quot; The DOJ just released the full transcript and again, no mention of gays, only Islam. [[User:Sir Joseph|Sir Joseph]] &lt;sup&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;Green&quot;&gt;[[User_talk:Sir Joseph|(talk)]]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/sup&gt; 20:04, 20 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::::::Er... why would you expect a mention of gays?! [[User:Bastun|&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Verdana, sans-serif&quot;&gt;Bastun&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Bastun|Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!]]&lt;/sup&gt; 20:07, 20 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::::::::From the 911 call from the gay club? Isn't it surprising that the killer didn't mention gays once, yet spoke about Islam? Again, he self-identified as a muslim terrorist, I fail to see the need to bend over backwards to have this labeled as a regulr shooting and not Islamic Terror. [[User:Sir Joseph|Sir Joseph]] &lt;sup&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;Green&quot;&gt;[[User_talk:Sir Joseph|(talk)]]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/sup&gt; 20:22, 20 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::::::::Once again - Islam'''ist''', not Islamic. I think your POV is showing... Still not sure why you think the 911 call needs to have mentioned gays, and I think it's irrelevant. What is relevant is that the person who murdered multiple gay people at a gay nightclub appears to have been a regular customer and was apparently gay himself. Which is not common among Islamist terrorists... [[User:Bastun|&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Verdana, sans-serif&quot;&gt;Bastun&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Bastun|Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!]]&lt;/sup&gt; 20:38, 20 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::::::::::Yes, but we cannot SYNTH one way or the other. RS reported it as Islamist terrorist at first. They're starting to question that (e.g., [http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2016/06/18/482621690/investigators-say-orlando-shooter-showed-few-warning-signs-of-radicalization]). As I said before, I can see a reason for inclusion here based on initial reporting, but we need to be prepared to remove or alter based on future reporting and investigation. If it comes to light that Mateen only used ISIL as a cover or excuse for his actions, but investigators find that this was a &quot;typical&quot; mass shooting, we need to remove it from here. That it's being questioned also justifies exclusion from the list until we have a firmer understanding of events and, more importantly, motive. [[User:EvergreenFir|'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:#8b00ff;&quot;&gt;Eve&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#6528c2;&quot;&gt;rgr&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#3f5184;&quot;&gt;een&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#197947;&quot;&gt;Fir&lt;/span&gt;''']] [[User talk:EvergreenFir|(talk)]] &lt;small&gt;Please &amp;#123;&amp;#123;[[Template:re|re]]&amp;#125;&amp;#125;&lt;/small&gt; 20:48, 20 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::::::::::::normally reliable but it's totally dependent on anonymous sources that contradict official statements. As a primary source it's quality is low.[[Special:Contributions/126.155.46.56|126.155.46.56]] ([[User talk:126.155.46.56|talk]]) 22:47, 20 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::::::::::::A primary source backed by unnamed claims of sources is not reliable. There are no reliable sources claiming he was not an islamist. [[User:Mrdthree|Mrdthree]] ([[User talk:Mrdthree|talk]]) 05:03, 21 June 2016 (UTC) <br /> ::::::::::::PS - please avoid mental illness labels. We do not know if Mateen was ill or not, and using things like &quot;psychotic&quot; to describe him and other shooters is unwarranted and, in this case, a violation of BDP. [[User:EvergreenFir|'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:#8b00ff;&quot;&gt;Eve&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#6528c2;&quot;&gt;rgr&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#3f5184;&quot;&gt;een&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#197947;&quot;&gt;Fir&lt;/span&gt;''']] [[User talk:EvergreenFir|(talk)]] &lt;small&gt;Please &amp;#123;&amp;#123;[[Template:re|re]]&amp;#125;&amp;#125;&lt;/small&gt; 20:50, 20 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::::::::::::You're correct, of course, about my use of the mental illness label - apologies. [[User:Bastun|&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Verdana, sans-serif&quot;&gt;Bastun&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Bastun|Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!]]&lt;/sup&gt; 21:34, 20 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::::::::::whether or not he was a member of ISIS is a red herring. He was investigated by the FBI as a radical Islamist twice before. Public statements made by named government sources in multiple primary sources say he was radicalized.[[Special:Contributions/126.155.46.56|126.155.46.56]] ([[User talk:126.155.46.56|talk]]) 22:47, 20 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::::::::::Not quite. &quot;[http://time.com/4368439/orlando-shooting-omar-mateen-fbi-investigation-dropped/ ...the bureau had investigated and interrogated Omar Mateen on three occasions over the last three years on '''''suspicion''''' he '''''might''''' have been a radicalized Islamic terrorist.&quot;] Of course, the FBI didn't pursue it because no crimes had been committed, and our system of justice is based on [[presumption of innocence]]. Saying that Mateen might have been &quot;radicalized&quot; is not the same as saying that the nightclub shooting was an &quot;Islamist terrorist attack&quot;. Wikipedia does not permit [[WP:OR]].- [[user: MrX|Mr]][[user talk:MrX|X]] 23:43, 20 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::::::::::::The conclusion of the FBI was that he was a radical muslim but not a criminal. He came under investigation because his extremism alarmed fellow muslims https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2016/06/20/i-reported-omar-mateen-to-the-fbi-trump-is-wrong-that-muslims-dont-do-our-part/ [[User:Mrdthree|Mrdthree]] ([[User talk:Mrdthree|talk]]) 04:54, 21 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::::::::::::Good context, but not RS in terms of use in article. [[User:EvergreenFir|'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:#8b00ff;&quot;&gt;Eve&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#6528c2;&quot;&gt;rgr&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#3f5184;&quot;&gt;een&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#197947;&quot;&gt;Fir&lt;/span&gt;''']] [[User talk:EvergreenFir|(talk)]] &lt;small&gt;Please &amp;#123;&amp;#123;[[Template:re|re]]&amp;#125;&amp;#125;&lt;/small&gt; 05:08, 21 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::::::::::::::The article has an FBI official confirm his story-- why isnt it an RS? In particular as evidence for his sympathies and beliefs shared with Anwar Alawaki[[User:Mrdthree|Mrdthree]] ([[User talk:Mrdthree|talk]]) 22:15, 21 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::::::::::::::Because things categorized as opinion pieces (which that is) are not [[WP:RS]]. We can attribute statements directly to the author if we think they're an authority on a certain issue. But better to use [[WP:SECONDARY]] sources. [[User:EvergreenFir|'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:#8b00ff;&quot;&gt;Eve&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#6528c2;&quot;&gt;rgr&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#3f5184;&quot;&gt;een&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#197947;&quot;&gt;Fir&lt;/span&gt;''']] [[User talk:EvergreenFir|(talk)]] &lt;small&gt;Please &amp;#123;&amp;#123;[[Template:re|re]]&amp;#125;&amp;#125;&lt;/small&gt; 22:18, 21 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> So suppose he had a gay affair (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3653734/Puerto-Rican-man-claiming-Orlando-shooter-s-gay-lover-describes-friends-benefits-relationship-says-attack-revenge-Omar-Mateen-discovered-one-men-d-threesome-HIV-positive.html) became concerned about having AIDS and then in a fit of revenge and reactionary religious fervor (saw his condition as the fulfillment of religious law) he attacked the nightclub. Does this rule in or rule out? (Speculating now so prob done for while) [[User:Mrdthree|Mrdthree]] ([[User talk:Mrdthree|talk]]) 07:20, 22 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :I think perhaps you may need to read policies such as [[WP:RS]], [[WP:V]], [[WP:NPOV]] and [[WP:NOR]], for starters... [[User:Bastun|&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Verdana, sans-serif&quot;&gt;Bastun&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Bastun|Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!]]&lt;/sup&gt; 20:03, 22 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> I have opened an RfC to cut the useless bickering. [[User:Kingsindian|Kingsindian]]&amp;nbsp;[[User Talk: Kingsindian|&amp;#9821;]]&amp;nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Kingsindian|&amp;#9818;]] 00:44, 23 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> <br /> EDIT: Didn't see survey. PS: I guess we should have survey about whether 9/11 or 7/7 was an Islamist attack. In fact, let's debate obvious facts until the cows come home. [[User:R00b07|R00b07]] ([[User talk:R00b07|talk]]) 23:46, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == RfC: Should the Orlando shooting be included in this list? ==<br /> <br /> {{rfc|pol|rfcid=EC3234A}}<br /> {{not a vote}}<br /> Should the [[2016 Orlando nightclub shooting]] be included in this list? 00:44, 23 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> === Survey ===<br /> * '''Strong Yes''': The act itself is an act of terrorism. This much is undisputed. Omar was a Muslim. This much is undisputed. We have official recordings and transcripts from Reliable Sources (911, police, district atty) of Omar pledging allegiance to ISIL. This is also undisputed. To say that this act of muslim terror is somehow excused because there is a rumor Omar was gay is simply against all common sense. <br /> * '''Strong Yes''': A self-proclaimed ISIS sympathizer, reported to the FBI on multiple occasions, kills dozens of people and injures dozens more...and we're debating if it had anything to do with Islamic terrorism? Have we lost our minds? I don't buy into the far-right narrative that says Wikipedia is a liberal thinktank...but this is sure playing into that. I challenge anything vote &quot;no&quot; to explain what could Omar Marteen have said or done, over what he already did, to convince you this was an Islamic terror attack? If you can't think of an answer, or have to go to great lengths to invent one, then consider you're letting your bias control you. Occam's razor makes this pretty simple... &lt;!-- Template:Unsigned --&gt;&lt;small&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—&amp;nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Ceran|Ceran]] ([[User talk:Ceran|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Ceran|contribs]]) 18:14, 30 June 2016 (UTC)&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/small&gt; &lt;!--Autosigned by SineBot--&gt;<br /> {{User:EvergreenFir/Zombie|Ceran|11 months}}&lt;font face=&quot;#&quot; color=&quot;#35b794&quot;&gt;[[User:Dschslava|'''Dsch'''slava]]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;#3558b7&quot;&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contribs/Dschslava|'' Δx '']]&lt;/sup&gt;[[User talk:Dschslava|parlez moi]]&lt;/font&gt; 04:57, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> ** Wikipedia has an obvious bias to the left. That this is even under debate is absurd, and clearly part of a liberal ideology to avoid associating Islam with terror and violence. Now that you've seen, look at other political issues on Wikipedia with new eyes. [[Special:Contributions/24.218.115.184|24.218.115.184]] ([[User talk:24.218.115.184|talk]]) 19:51, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::: Remember to [[WP:AGF]] or you will get in trouble. [[User:R00b07|R00b07]] ([[User talk:R00b07|talk]]) 02:08, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> * '''No''': At the moment, the motives remain unclear. It seems he did not have any links to foreign organizations like ISIS. See discussion [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:List_of_Islamist_terrorist_attacks#Orlando_shooting here] for various sources. [[User:Kingsindian|Kingsindian]]&amp;nbsp;[[User Talk: Kingsindian|&amp;#9821;]]&amp;nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Kingsindian|&amp;#9818;]] 00:44, 23 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> **You don't have to have any links in order to support the cause and implement an agenda. [[Special:Contributions/203.30.95.21|203.30.95.21]] ([[User talk:203.30.95.21|talk]]) 00:18, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> ***But you do have to have links to reliable sources to report it on Wikipedia. We are not a news outlet, we don't report what hasn't been reliably and widely reported. [[User:Mr rnddude|Mr rnddude]] ([[User talk:Mr rnddude|talk]]) 00:23, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> ****Right, we are an information hub and we use sources given by news outlets to provide accurate information to the public. [[User:R00b07|R00b07]] ([[User talk:R00b07|talk]]) 02:09, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> * '''Strong yes''': The attacker was reported by innumerable sources, including law enforcement agencies as well as numerous media outlets, as pledging allegiance to Islamist terror organizations and leaders and repeatedly stating that he was carrying out the attack in the name of Islam. Political considerations, such as those that led the FBI to attempt to redact mentions of Islam or ISIS from the transcripts of his calls, can and must not be taken into account when compiling data for an impartial encyclopedia. [[Special:Contributions/2601:602:9802:99B2:B5B0:510C:53AF:F763|2601:602:9802:99B2:B5B0:510C:53AF:F763]] ([[User talk:2601:602:9802:99B2:B5B0:510C:53AF:F763|talk]]) 02:19, 23 June 2016 (UTC) &lt;small&gt;— [[User:2601:602:9802:99B2:B5B0:510C:53AF:F763|2601:602:9802:99B2:B5B0:510C:53AF:F763]] ([[User talk:2601:602:9802:99B2:B5B0:510C:53AF:F763|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/2601:602:9802:99B2:B5B0:510C:53AF:F763|contribs]]) has made [[Wikipedia:Single-purpose account|few or no other edits]] outside this topic. &lt;/small&gt;<br /> :: '''Comment''': &quot;Political considerations...can and must not be taken into account...&quot; What do you mean to imply here? That sentence not only makes no sense, but you are also suggesting that an independent, impartial encyclopedia should presume that the official statements of law enforcement agencies should be completely disregarded when documenting an ongoing event involving [[WP:BLP]]s. Your &quot;political considerations&quot; are nothing more than conspiratorial nonsense. &lt;&gt; [[User:Alt lys er svunnet hen|Alt lys er svunnet hen]] ([[User talk:Alt lys er svunnet hen|talk]]) 08:34, 28 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> *'''No''' Today's news brought [http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/pulse-orlando-nightclub-shooting/omar-mateen/os-omar-mateen-lover-talks-20160622-story.html reports] that the gunman's male lover, who has been interviewed by the FBI, says the attack was motivated by revenge for mistreatment at the nightclub and fear of contracting HIV from gay Latinos. Read [[WP:NOTNEWS]] and [[WP:NODEADLINE]]. Let's wait for the dust to settle before we declare this Islamist terrorism. —&amp;nbsp;[[User:Malik Shabazz|Malik Shabazz]]&amp;nbsp;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Malik Shabazz|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt;/&lt;sub&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Malik Shabazz|Stalk]]&lt;/sub&gt; 02:36, 23 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ** The problem is that the dust did settle, and the FBI made it clear that it was Islamic Terror. [[User:R00b07|R00b07]] ([[User talk:R00b07|talk]]) 02:11, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> &lt;s&gt;*'''Too early to vote''' There is evidence for the position but there are developing stories that make it a mistake to commit to a particular conclusion now. As it is hard to undo these votes I would rather just leave the issue on hold and wait for evidence to develop. [[User:Mrdthree|Mrdthree]] ([[User talk:Mrdthree|talk]]) 03:30, 23 June 2016 (UTC)&lt;/s&gt;<br /> :: '''Comment''': The FBI has further investigated and found that there was no evidence Mateen was gay. http://www.nola.com/crime/index.ssf/2016/06/orlando_shooter_gay_omar_matee.html &lt;!-- Template:Unsigned --&gt;&lt;small&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—&amp;nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Marquis de Faux |Marquis de Faux ]] ([[User talk:Marquis de Faux |talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Marquis de Faux |contribs]]) 17:15, 30 June 2016&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/small&gt;<br /> *'''Yes''' Omar Mateen pledged allegence to ISIS https://www.fbi.gov/tampa/press-releases/2016/investigative-update-regarding-pulse-nightclub-shooting. ISIS has a strategy of encouraging lone wolf attacks in Western countries for more than two years https://www.fbi.gov/news/testimony/isil-in-america-domestic-terror-and-radicalization http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/jun/16/isis-promoting-lone-wolf-attacks-scheming-to-infil/ http://edition.cnn.com/2014/09/22/world/meast/isis-threatens-west/ Mateen voiced his motives to victims (saying it wasnt a racist attack it was to stop bombings of ISIL) http://www.democracynow.org/2016/6/15/headlines/orlando_survivor_says_shooter_wanted_us_to_stop_bombing_afghanistan and voiced his motives to officials which were to stop bombings of ISIL http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-06-15/orlando-gunman-wanted-to-stop-us-bombing-afghanistan/7511586 and posted the same motivations on facebook while the crime was in progress http://www.thehindu.com/news/international/stop-bombing-is-mateen-wrote-on-facebook/article8737808.ece. Official investigators and other press outlets discount gay revenge story http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-orlando-gay-fbi-20160623-snap-story.html, http://www.rollingstone.com/culture/news/authorities-no-evidence-orlando-shooter-omar-mateen-was-gay-20160624--[[User:Mrdthree|Mrdthree]] ([[User talk:Mrdthree|talk]]) 23:39, 27 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> There isn't a vote to be had here. http://www.cnn.com/2016/06/20/us/orlando-nightclub-shooting/ He pledged allegiance to ISIL's leader and ISIL in his 911 call. It shuold obviously included. Anyone saying no needs to have hteir head examined.[[Special:Contributions/65.29.77.61|65.29.77.61]] ([[User talk:65.29.77.61|talk]]) 05:24, 23 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::[[User:65.29.77.61]], no one is trying to suppress or exclude info about his 'allegiance calls'. But investigation is still unclear as to how much this was a conscious terrorist attack, how much homophobia, how much a disturbed individual best compared with a school-shooter. The true picture is that we don't know yet which it truly was. [[User:Pincrete|Pincrete]] ([[User talk:Pincrete|talk]]) 16:32, 23 June 2016 (UTC) <br /> :::::: Taking a gander at the other Islamist attacks, it's fairly obvious common-sense-wise why he did what he did. The tricky part is getting good sources to back up that what he did is inline with the THOUSANDS of other Islamist attacks that have happened across the globe. [[User:R00b07|R00b07]] ([[User talk:R00b07|talk]]) 02:07, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> *'''Yes''', he pledged allegiance to ISIS, on the 911 call, he mentioned Islam and did not mention gays at all. It clearly is the same as other terror attacks where &quot;pledged allegiance to ISIS.&quot; [[User:Sir Joseph|Sir Joseph]] &lt;sup&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;Green&quot;&gt;[[User_talk:Sir Joseph|(talk)]]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/sup&gt; 13:46, 23 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> *'''No'''. The fact that he &quot;did not mention gays at all&quot; is a somewhat bizarre [[non sequitur]]. If someone dressed as Napoleon or claiming allegiance to Mars attacked somewhere, we would not attribute it to the [[French Empire]] or add it to a [[List of interplanetary attacks]]. [[User:Bastun|&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Verdana, sans-serif&quot;&gt;Bastun&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Bastun|Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!]]&lt;/sup&gt; 15:12, 23 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :*And yet this same article had entries where the terrorist &quot;claimed allegiance&quot; to ISIS so is therefore included on the list. Same here. [[User:Sir Joseph|Sir Joseph]] &lt;sup&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;Green&quot;&gt;[[User_talk:Sir Joseph|(talk)]]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/sup&gt; 15:56, 23 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :*Somebody claiming to be Napoleon or from Mars is obviously wrong/lying though. So I don't think this is a valid argument. Somebody claiming allegiance to Napoleon and attacking a gay club would not act in allegiance to Napoleon because it does not align with Napoleon's goals. Somebody claiming allegiance with IS and attacking a gay club does act in allegiance with IS. It does not matter if he was radicalized abroad, domestic or on the internet. It does not matter if he acted by order of IS or not. So people arguing that this was not an islamist terrorist attack are basically saying it was a false flag operation to discredit IS? &lt;!-- Template:Unsigned IP --&gt;&lt;small class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—&amp;nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/212.202.124.186|212.202.124.186]] ([[User talk:212.202.124.186|talk]]) 10:07, 1 July 2016 (UTC)&lt;/small&gt; &lt;!--Autosigned by SineBot--&gt;<br /> :::Feel free to read this section to learn what people are saying. I don't think any of them are saying that. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#AAA;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 10:21, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> *'''Ambivalent''' - As pointed out above, other entries on this list have been made based on perpetrator claims. However, the current state of the investigator suggests other motives are possible (if not likely). I'm ambivalent because, on one hand, sources treated this as an Islamist terrorist attack. On the other hand, there's now doubt about that characterization. If it's included, we can always take it down should the investigation prove otherwise. The reverse is true too; we can always add it later. Our task is a bit like those of pollsters at fivethirtyeight predicting election outcomes: we must consider the trend and trajectory of the RS, and give weight based on recency, reputation, and depth. There's ample reason to include it based on older information, but sufficient reason to exclude it based on newer, better information. [[User:EvergreenFir|'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:#8b00ff;&quot;&gt;Eve&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#6528c2;&quot;&gt;rgr&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#3f5184;&quot;&gt;een&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#197947;&quot;&gt;Fir&lt;/span&gt;''']] [[User talk:EvergreenFir|(talk)]] &lt;small&gt;Please &amp;#123;&amp;#123;[[Template:re|re]]&amp;#125;&amp;#125;&lt;/small&gt; 16:22, 23 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> *'''Too early to say''' Therefore not yet. Whilst I respect EvergreenFir's we can add it or take it out assessment, I prefer the 'add it when clear' option. Alternatively make the text reflect that this is one of the theories being speculated about at present. We just don't know what the motive was yet. [[User:Pincrete|Pincrete]] ([[User talk:Pincrete|talk]]) 16:50, 23 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> * '''No need to [[Rush to Judgment]] here'''. This seems ([[opinion]]) to be more of a homophobic thing than a religious one. To me. At this time. [[User:Carptrash|Carptrash]] ([[User talk:Carptrash|talk]]) 18:16, 23 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> * '''No''': The more we learn about Omar Mateen, the more he seems to be a routine U.S. loner with a range of grudges against the world around him who jumped on the radical Islamic bandwagon after reading a few websites. At best it is too early to say what the motive was.--'''''[[User:ianmacm|&lt;span style=&quot;background:#88b;color:#cff;font-variant:small-caps&quot;&gt;♦Ian&lt;span style=&quot;background:#99c&quot;&gt;Ma&lt;span style=&quot;background:#aad&quot;&gt;c&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;M♦&lt;/span&gt;]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:ianmacm|(talk to me)]]&lt;/sup&gt;''''' 18:22, 23 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> *'''Strong No''' (and I think that's the first time in 3 years I've used the word &quot;strong&quot; in a !vote). This list, being almost entirely without context, should be limited to attacks specifically planned, manned, and/or financed by Islamic terrorist organizations (ISIL does not do that). No such link has been uncovered for Orlando, and not for lack of trying to find one. Mateen was a lone wolf with apparently a mix of motivations for his act, only one of which was propaganda he read on the Internet. It is unclear to what extent he subscribed to, or even understood, jihadist ideology. A witness said he said, &quot;I'm just tired of your people killing my people in Iraq,&quot; and that sort of thing is an extremely thin connection to Islamic terrorism. Our readers do not benefit from a broad-brush interpretation of the words &quot;Islamic terrorism&quot;. The predominance of reliable sources &lt;u&gt;do not&lt;/u&gt; state unequivocally that this was Islamic terrorism, and we do not cherry-pick our sources. The most applicable policies are [[WP:NOR]] and [[WP:NPOV]]. If that's not enough, an effective counter to most of the RS arguments is simple: [[WP:ONUS]]. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#AAA;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 20:25, 23 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::You've added the arbitrary requirement that lone wolf Islamist terrorist attacks cannot be included on this list. I don't see that restriction mentioned anywhere in the article and can imagine no justification for it. Do you have one? Same for the requirement that an attack cannot be included on the list unless it is determined there is only one motivation. If these are requirements, they should be spelled out in the main article: &quot;List of Islamist terrorist attacks planned or carried out by more than one person, and in which the attacker had only one motivation.&quot; Once we do that, then we can create another article that includes ALL Islamist terrorist attacks.[[User:Dansan99|Dansan99]] ([[User talk:Dansan99|talk]]) 01:32, 25 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::{{tq|You've added the arbitrary requirement that lone wolf Islamist terrorist attacks cannot be included on this list.}} Actually that is not an accurate characterization of my argument at all, on multiple points. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#AAA;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 03:44, 25 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::I apologize if I misinterpreted your saying that the list &quot;should be limited to attacks specifically planned, manned, and/or financed by Islamic terrorist organizations&quot; as precluding lone wolf terrorists. Instead of spending additional time analyzing your statement, I'll just ask you: Do you believe that lone wolf Islamist terrorists should be automatically excluded from the list?[[User:Dansan99|Dansan99]] ([[User talk:Dansan99|talk]]) 06:06, 25 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::::I reject the nuance-free premise that Mateen was a &quot;lone wolf Islamic terrorist&quot;. I did not call him that, you distorted my argument by adding that. This is an example of [[straw man]] argument, something to be avoided. I suppose it would be worth debating separately whether a lone wolf who clearly understood and subscribed to jihadist ideology, and who was clearly motivated by that alone, should be included in this list, but that is not the question being decided in this particular RfC. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#AAA;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 06:13, 25 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::::Whether or not he was a lone wolf Islamic terrorist is a separate question. I'm trying to establish a baseline of agreement on the requirements for inclusion of attacks in the list. Once there is agreement on that, it makes it easier to decide if this specific attack meets those requirements. It appears to me that the reason this discussion is so contentious is that we have not reached broad agreement on the requirements for inclusion in the list. One person way above used the first paragraph of the main article as a literal checklist of requirements. But, this immediately drew objections based on presumed requirements not in that list. Some examples that came up repeatedly were: 1. Should undirected, lone wolf attacks be included? 2. Should attacks with multiple motives be included? 3. Should attacks where the attacker has a confused understanding of his professed ideology be included? I think those decisions should be influenced by what reliable sources are saying. Once we decide the criteria, whether a particular attack fits is a separate discussion. But, whatever we decide this list is about should probably be included in the main article, so as not to create further confusion later on. In writing this, I've kind of concluded that this RfC is premature and will bow out of further discussion. When I have the time and energy, and if someone doesn't beat me to it, I'll start a separate topic or topics for discussing criteria for inclusion of attacks in the list.[[User:Dansan99|Dansan99]] ([[User talk:Dansan99|talk]]) 08:08, 25 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::::::I completely agree that this RfC is cart-before-horse if the developers of this article have failed to nail down the criteria for inclusion (which should have been the &lt;u&gt;first&lt;/u&gt; discussion here). But it doesn't work to change an RfC's question and scope midstream. If it were up to me, which it is not, we would abort this RfC as a waste of time and start over with the criteria question (which would also need an RfC). Barring that, we have no choice but to answer the question for Orlando alone, per the RfC's question, and that result could obviously be superseded by a later criteria result. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#AAA;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 08:34, 25 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::::::ISIL and AL Qaeda have had an explicit strategy of trying to recruit ''lone wolf'' terrorists for more than 2 years. Are you aware of this?http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/isis-official-calls-for-lone-wolf-attacks-in-us-and-europe-during-ramadan-a7042296.html http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/jun/16/isis-promoting-lone-wolf-attacks-scheming-to-infil/ http://edition.cnn.com/2014/09/22/world/meast/isis-threatens-west/ [[User:Mrdthree|Mrdthree]] ([[User talk:Mrdthree|talk]]) 23:29, 27 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::::::::I do draw a distinction between direct recruitment and publishing propaganda on the Internet for anyone to read. The last sentence of the article's lead reads: &quot;The Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) said it found no links between ISIL and Mateen.&quot; At the core of this question is whether it better serves our readers to be less selective or more selective in this list, a list that is necessarily without nuance, explanation, or context. My feeling is more selective, and I perceive a desire, conscious or otherwise, to blame as much violence as possible on Islamic terrorism, making Wikipedia a political tool. You are entitled to disagree, and there is probably no &quot;correct&quot; answer to this question. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#AAA;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 00:54, 28 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> *'''No''' per [[WP:V]]. Most reliable sources have not made any conclusive statements because they can't. It is unknown whether Mateen committed the shooting to &quot;further a perceived Islamic religious or political cause&quot;. Many sources speculate about other possible motives for the shooting, like homophobia, or anger about being exposed to HIV. Some sources say that Mateen ''may'' have been inspired by ISIL, but none that I have seen have unequivocally called the shooting an Islamist terrorist attack, so neither can we without committing [[WP:OR|original research]].- [[user: MrX|Mr]][[user talk:MrX|X]] 01:46, 24 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> *'''Strong Yes''', Frankly, I'm dumbfounded that there is any controversy about this at all. We have reliable sources for all the following: Officials have repeatedly referred to it as a terrorist attack. The perpetrator himself, during the attack, pledged allegiance to an Islamist terrorist organization. That organization sent out messages specifically encouraging lone wolf terrorist attacks by their followers on soft targets such as this. Perpetrator had been investigated in past by FBI for Islamist statements. Perpetrator during the attack said it was to influence government policy on bombing in Middle East. Despite reports by others, the FBI has said their investigations have found no credible evidence of a gay double life (and it wouldn't necessarily matter anyway). The evidence in favor of Islamic Terrorism is simply overwhelming. I see nothing but speculation to the contrary. Some people seem to be asking for evidence of ISIS being aware of and specifically directing the attack. That is not a requirement for this to be an Islamist terrorist attack. As stated above, the evidence is that this was a lone wolf attack of the type explicitly encouraged by ISIS.&quot;[[User:Dansan99|Dansan99]] ([[User talk:Dansan99|talk]]) 21:46, 24 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> *:You seem much more certain than the people officially investigating the shooting:<br /> :::{{talkquote|&quot;Comey said Mateen's statements added &quot;confusion&quot; about his inspiration for the attack, because Mateen had expressed loyalty to Islamist groups and figures that are opposed to each other. &quot;|source=''[http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-orlando-nightclub-shooting-live-fbi-director-mateen-claimed-loyalty-to-1465837231-htmlstory.html Los Angeles Times]''}}<br /> :::{{talkquote|&quot;&quot;I cannot tell you definitively that we will ever narrow it down to one motivation,&quot; U.S. Attorney General Loretta Lynch said.&quot;|source=''[http://www.cnn.com/2016/06/22/us/omar-mateen-timeline/ CNN]''}}<br /> :::{{talkquote|&quot;FBI Director James Comey said Monday that there was no evidence to indicate that Orlando mass shooter Omar Mateen was directed by an outside terror organization nor was he part of an international terror network.&quot;|source=''[http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2016/06/13/james-comey-fbi-orlando-shooting/85834956/ USA Today]''}}<br /> ::- [[user: MrX|Mr]][[user talk:MrX|X]] 22:20, 24 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::It's not at all unusual for a partisan to have a confused understanding of the group he is supporting. The question is what he believed (as indicated by what he said), not what makes sense to us. Besides, all the groups he declared allegiance to or affinity with are Islamist groups, so it doesn't change the answer to the question at hand. Regarding number of motivations, having one motivation is also not a requirement. We know he mentioned allegiance to an Islamist organization (he mentioned nothing else in the released transcript), and that's enough to make this list, even if secondary motivations are later determined. I already addressed the question of him being specifically directed by ISIS to carry out this particular attack. It's not a requirement. A lone wolf Islamist terrorist attack is still an Islamist terrorist attack.[[User:Dansan99|Dansan99]] ([[User talk:Dansan99|talk]]) 00:37, 25 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::Is a vote space a place to argue? If so Quote 1 regards a statement Mateen made in 2013. Quote 2 is irrelevant as all Official agree a primary motivation was islamic extremism. Quote 3 makes a distinction between domestic and international terrorism, not islamic and other terrorism[[User:Mrdthree|Mrdthree]] ([[User talk:Mrdthree|talk]]) 11:09, 25 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::It's not a vote space; it's a discussion to try to determine consensus. Quote 1 is directly related to his &quot;inspiration for the attack&quot;. Your comment about Quote 2 [[begs the question]]. Quote 3 doesn't make any distinction. It encompasses any outside terror organizations, which obviously includes Islamist terror organizations. It amplifies this by also stating that there is no evidence that he was part of &quot;an international terror network&quot;. The only thing it leaves unanswered is whether Mateen's apparently independent actions were motivated by Islamist extremism for furtherance of a political or religious agenda. His dubious pledge of allegiance is insufficient for making such a conclusion in Wikipedia's voice.- [[user: MrX|Mr]][[user talk:MrX|X]] 12:28, 25 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::::Its original research to claim that Quote 1 is in anyway related to the current attack. Please return to the article for context. Perhaps there are arguable elements in Q2 and Q3 but there is nothing dubious about his pledge of allegence to ISIS. It is an agreed fact. What you mean is that you doubt his capacity or honesty. However there is no record of insanity so his capacity is not at question. That means you doubt his honesty, correct? [[User:Mrdthree|Mrdthree]] ([[User talk:Mrdthree|talk]]) 11:16, 27 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::::{{tq|&quot;Its original research to claim that Quote 1 is in anyway related to the current attack&quot;}}. I guess you're saying the FBI Director used original research when he discussed Mateen's &quot;inspiration for the attack&quot;. Our [[WP:OR]] policy does not extend to reliable sources. I don't have an opinion about Mateen's &quot;honesty&quot; or state of mind, but the FBI director and several sources obviously do.- [[user: MrX|Mr]][[user talk:MrX|X]] 13:20, 27 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::::::OK I misunderstood the quote; I thought it was the 2013 reference. It is a reference to their current motivations. Here is Comeys statement about 'confusion': {{tq|&quot;During the calls he said he was doing this for the leader of ISIL, who he named and pledged loyalty to, but he also appeared to claim solidarity with the perpetrators of the Boston Marathon bombing, and solidarity with a Florida man who died as a suicide bomber in Syria for al Nusra Front, a group in conflict with Islamic State. The bombers at the Boston Marathon and the suicide bomber from Florida were not inspired by ISIL, which adds a little bit to the confusion about his motives.}} https://www.fbi.gov/news/speeches/update-on-orlando-terrorism-investigation [[User:Mrdthree|Mrdthree]] ([[User talk:Mrdthree|talk]]) 23:00, 27 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::::::The solidarity he expressed was in calling them homeboys, which is hardly a pledge of allegence (as he did to ISIS){{tq|During one of the 911 calls between the operator and Omar Mir Seddique Mateen, Mateen made a reference to the Tsarnaev brothers by calling them his “homeboys.” At this point in time, all evidence collected to date shows no connection between Mateen and the Tsarnaev brothers.&quot;}}https://www.fbi.gov/boston/press-releases/2016/statement-from-special-agent-in-charge-harold-h.-shaw-regarding-omar-mir-seddique-mateens-reference-to-the-tsarnaev-brothers. [[User:Mrdthree|Mrdthree]] ([[User talk:Mrdthree|talk]]) 23:12, 27 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::Exactly, all those quotes above can be perfectly true and coexist with Mateen's extremist motivation. In fact, that has been the affirmative motive of the attack according to investigators, from the article I posted below: &quot;He claimed the shooting was carried out in allegiance to the militant group Islamic State, as a message to halt U.S. bombing in Iraq and Syria.&quot; This isn't a &quot;process of elimination&quot; issue. &lt;small class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—&amp;nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/73.233.156.49|73.233.156.49]] ([[User talk:73.233.156.49|talk]]) 16:56, 25 June 2016 (UTC)&lt;/small&gt;&lt;!-- Template:Unsigned IP --&gt; &lt;!--Autosigned by SineBot--&gt;<br /> <br /> *'''Strong No'''. Need definite proof first. Unless declaring war and invading countries without evidence is back in vogue. &lt;small&gt;— [[User:2602:306:ce95:57b0:549d:5e23:e8eb:3703|2602:306:ce95:57b0:549d:5e23:e8eb:3703]] ([[User talk:2602:306:ce95:57b0:549d:5e23:e8eb:3703|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/2602:306:ce95:57b0:549d:5e23:e8eb:3703|contribs]]) has made [[Wikipedia:Single-purpose account|few or no other edits]] outside this topic. The preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment was added at 00:33, 25 June 2016‎ (UTC) (UTC).&lt;/small&gt;<br /> ::How much stronger evidence could there be than from the perpetrator's own lips?[[User:Dansan99|Dansan99]] ([[User talk:Dansan99|talk]]) 00:42, 25 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> *'''Strong Yes'''. I don't understand the argument that he may have had multiple motivations for the attack precluding the attack from being listed here; as long as one of the motivations was Islamist, then it ought to be included on this list and it certainly appears to be the main, if not only, motivation. I also don't see pledging allegiance to conflicting groups as an issue either since they are all, bottom line, Islamist groups or individuals. --[[User:Local hero|&lt;font color=&quot;blue&quot;&gt;Local hero&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Local hero|&lt;font color=&quot;dark yellow&quot;&gt;talk&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; 17:34, 25 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> *'''No'''. There is evidence that Mateen had pledged allegiance to both ISIS and Hezbollah, two groups which happen to be fighting against each other in the [[Syrian Civil War]]. His political and religious ideologies are confused, and his motivations for the shooting remain unclear as established by reliable sources. OT, how long is this article going to get before it gets broken up? &lt;&gt; [[User:Alt lys er svunnet hen|Alt lys er svunnet hen]] ([[User talk:Alt lys er svunnet hen|talk]]) 04:25, 27 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> *'''No'''. Needs to be stated in a source, rather than rumoured, for inclusion. [[Special:Contributions/PeterTheFourth|PeterTheFourth]] ([[User Talk:PeterTheFourth|talk]]) 12:40, 27 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::Here are sourced facts Omar Mateen pledged allegence to ISIS on the telephone and internet https://www.fbi.gov/tampa/press-releases/2016/investigative-update-regarding-pulse-nightclub-shooting. Mateen told his victims he was doing it to stop US bombing in Afghanistan/ISIL http://www.democracynow.org/2016/6/15/headlines/orlando_survivor_says_shooter_wanted_us_to_stop_bombing_afghanistan and he told police on the telephone he was doing it to stop US bombing in Afghanistan/ISIL http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-06-15/orlando-gunman-wanted-to-stop-us-bombing-afghanistan/7511586 and he posted the same motivations on facebook while the crime was in progress http://www.thehindu.com/news/international/stop-bombing-is-mateen-wrote-on-facebook/article8737808.ece. Official investigators and other press outlets discount gay revenge story http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-orlando-gay-fbi-20160623-snap-story.html, http://www.rollingstone.com/culture/news/authorities-no-evidence-orlando-shooter-omar-mateen-was-gay-20160624 [[User:Mrdthree|Mrdthree]] ([[User talk:Mrdthree|talk]]) 21:48, 28 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> *'''Of Course, YES''' - It would take some very strange reasoning not to include it. One of the reasons was radical Islamic belief. This is a slam dunk. [[User:Fyunck(click)|Fyunck(click)]] ([[User talk:Fyunck(click)|talk]]) 21:59, 28 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> *'''Definite Yes''' Same as San Bernardino, radicalized natural born turned Islamic homophobic terrorist. The FBI says claims he was gay are considered unsubstantiated. I don't care what nonsense Obama says about it and gun control, it's terrorism pure and simple especially considering his administration's been trying to scrub this fact from history as to partially censer recording of the calls the terrorist made. This shouldn't be up for debate when he's a Muslim extremist who has pledged allegiance to terrorist groups and states the political motive for the terrorist act.[[User:ShadowDragon343|ShadowDragon343]] ([[User talk:ShadowDragon343|talk]]) 13:04, 29 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> * '''Strong yes'''. It's absurd to armchair-quarterback Mateen's exact motivations, and claim that because there were more than one, he was not at least partially motivated by his religious views. In such cases, we should err on the side of what &lt;i&gt;the perpetrator's own stated motivation&lt;/i&gt; was. And with making decisions that involve suicide, religious views are typically a stronger motivating factor than others (how much more likely is someone to die for the promise of an afterlife than they are because they're conflicted about their sexuality?!) I've no doubt that at least some of the 9/11 attackers had multiple reasons for their involvement, but there's sufficient evidence that they were at least significantly motivated by their religious views. So too with Mateen. This comment is particularly absurd: &quot;&lt;i&gt;There is evidence that Mateen had pledged allegiance to both ISIS and Hezbollah, two groups which happen to be fighting against each other in the Syrian Civil War&lt;/i&gt;&quot;. And what is the commonality among ISIL and Hezbollah? &lt;u&gt;They're both Islamist groups&lt;/u&gt;. It's as ridiculous as claiming that because Osama bin Laden was Sunni Muslim who denounced Shiites, that he wasn't really an Islamist, because Shiites and Sunnis -- the two main sects of Islam -- are frequently in conflict. [[User:Bricology|Bricology]] ([[User talk:Bricology|talk]]) 19:24, 29 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :And I would add that it's irrelevant whether or not Mateen was directed by, authorized by, trained by or in any other way directly involved with, any outside group. One doesn't need any external influences to be to kill because of their religious views. It's straightforward enough to find motivation from the ideology itself. [[User:Bricology|Bricology]] ([[User talk:Bricology|talk]]) 19:40, 29 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> * '''NO. At least until confirmed by RS''' Most of !votes are are making arguments based on OR. It is basic policy that Wikipedia doesn't include material unless backed by multiple RS. The pertinent question is, do [[WP:RS|reliable sources]] commonly refer to this incident as a terrorist attack? If they do, then include it, if they don't then do not. Browsing news paper reports, it appears that they refer to it as the &quot;Orlando shooting&quot; or &quot;Orlando attack&quot;, but not as &quot;Orlando terrorism&quot; or &quot;Orlando terrorist attack&quot;. [[User:Lawrencekhoo|LK]] ([[User talk:Lawrencekhoo|talk]]) 02:49, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> *:You've noticed that this list is only for &lt;u&gt;Islamic&lt;/u&gt; terrorist attacks? There are other types of terrorism. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you just misspoke. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#AAA;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 04:26, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> *:: This makes my point even stronger. No RS has named the incident an &lt;u&gt;Islamic&lt;/u&gt; terrorist attack. [[User:Lawrencekhoo|LK]] ([[User talk:Lawrencekhoo|talk]]) 09:26, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> * '''Strong Yes''' The man himself stated what his motivations were. ISIS claimed credit. All other criteria are met. [[User:Evan1975|Evan1975]] ([[User talk:Evan1975|talk]]) 14:21, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> * '''Strong Yes''' I understand that points that this man may have been mentally ill and that this attack was not ''directed'' by ISIS, but those points are not relevant. ISIS intentionally targets those who are mentally ill, ISIS intentionally does not direct attacks in the United States where their communications can be intercepted, and ISIS intentionally congratulates and endorses lone gunman (or pairs/small groups) who attack in the United States. They intentionally release guides and propaganda encouraging these attacks to take place. Almost all Islamist terrorist attacks in the United States follow this same pattern. As far as a 'lack' of RS, the United States government has a vested interest in portraying ISIS as an organization with no physical presense in the United States and no support among American citizens and residents. The USA media protects the interests of the USA government. I don't think this is 'conspiratorial nonsense'. I would prefer if WP remained independent and did not become another arm of the USA propaganda machine. [[User:Brianbleakley|Brianbleakley]] ([[User talk:Brianbleakley|talk]]) 14:41, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> * '''Strong Yes''': The list says &quot;list of Islamist terrorist attacks,&quot; not &quot;list of terrorist attacks perpetrated by Islamic terrorist organizations.&quot; Omar Mateen was Islamic, he committed a terror attack, therefore the Orlando shooting was a terror attack by an Islamist. [[User:Vektor00|Vektor00]] ([[User talk:Vektor00|talk]]) 15:08, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> * '''Strong Yes''': Of course yes. It's not up to Wikipedia editors to figure out how they can twist the facts around to somehow conclude that there's not clear evidence it was a terror attack. If there's significant doubt (which I don't think there is) you can at least say that it's *widely claimed* to be a terror attack by [huge list of news organizations around the world whom have reported it as such.] I don't think that's even necessary, however. He was a Muslim and committed an Islamic-motivated act of terror by even the most stringent definition of the word. [[User:100DashSix|100DashSix]] ([[User talk:100DashSix|talk]]) 15:18, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::{{User:EvergreenFir/Zombie|100DashSix|2 years}} [[User:EvergreenFir|'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:#8b00ff;&quot;&gt;Eve&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#6528c2;&quot;&gt;rgr&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#3f5184;&quot;&gt;een&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#197947;&quot;&gt;Fir&lt;/span&gt;''']] [[User talk:EvergreenFir|(talk)]] &lt;small&gt;Please &amp;#123;&amp;#123;[[Template:re|re]]&amp;#125;&amp;#125;&lt;/small&gt; 00:17, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> * '''Strong yes''': Claims from the horses-mouth said are that he did it in accordance to his allegiance with ISIS and ISIS took credit. I don't care how prestigious and important a person's title is. Any third party investigators wanting to make sense of the attackers motivations, while ignoring statements made by the attacker, might as well just go home and twiddle their thumbs because they're doing nothing but wasting time.[[User:The Armchair General|The Armchair General]] ([[User talk:The Armchair General|talk]]) 15:27, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> * '''Strong yes''': He pledged allegiance to ISIS and Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, stated he was acting according to the will of Allah, and ISIS itself has claimed credit for the attack. Citations are too numerous to count. If this isn't an Islamic terror attack, nothing is. wikipedia's systemic bias is on full display in this ridiculous discussion. [[User:Jennyriarchi|Jennyriarchi]] ([[User talk:Jennyriarchi|talk]]) 15:41, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> * '''Comment''': Since this is picking up [http://www.breitbart.com/tech/2016/06/30/wikipedia-removes-orlando-shooting-islamist-terror-attack-list/ media coverage on Breitbart.com] and [[User:MrX]] is getting criticized, let's look at what happened. During the hostage situation, Omar Mateen called 911 and made a [[Bay'ah]] (pledge of allegiance) to ISIL. This isn't in dispute, and it has appeared in numerous reliable sources. What is in dispute is whether anyone in ISIL had ever heard of Mateen prior to the attack, which now seems unlikely. Mateen's knowledge of radical Islamic ideology seems to have been acquired from websites and was thin and confused at best. Investigators have moved away from the theory that this was a planned attack by a terrorist organization, such as the Bataclan theater attack in Paris in November 2015.--'''''[[User:ianmacm|&lt;span style=&quot;background:#88b;color:#cff;font-variant:small-caps&quot;&gt;♦Ian&lt;span style=&quot;background:#99c&quot;&gt;Ma&lt;span style=&quot;background:#aad&quot;&gt;c&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;M♦&lt;/span&gt;]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:ianmacm|(talk to me)]]&lt;/sup&gt;''''' 15:52, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :*And that lends to a YES. Nobody is saying that the attack was an ISIS attack, just that this attack was an Islamist terror attack. [[User:Sir Joseph|Sir Joseph]] &lt;sup&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;Green&quot;&gt;[[User_talk:Sir Joseph|(talk)]]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/sup&gt; 16:02, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :*I don't think the your second point is actually in dispute. No one is suggesting that ISIS had prior knowledge of this attack, or that it was planned in any way by ISIS. [[User:Brianbleakley|Brianbleakley]] ([[User talk:Brianbleakley|talk]]) 16:06, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :*What difference would it make if ISIL didn't know about him? How does that make it *not* a terrorist attack committed by an Islamist? [[User:Vektor00|Vektor00]] ([[User talk:Vektor00|talk]]) 16:18, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> * '''Yes.''' Regardless of Mateen's formal affiliation with any Islamist groups, during hostage negotiations he described himself as a &quot;soldier of Islam.&quot; If Wikipedia wants to define &quot;Islamist&quot; to not mean all &quot;Islamist extremists&quot;, as it currently is, then fine, but Mateen was an extremist acting in the name of Islam (regardless of what his &quot;true&quot; motivations were). [[User:JoshuaKGarner|Joshua Garner]] ([[User talk:JoshuaKGarner|talk]]) 16:39, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> * ''''Yes.'''' One does not need a &quot;Soldier Of Allah&quot; card in order to be a jihadist. The probable fact that he was self-deployed rather than formally allied with ISIL does not lessen the Islamist aspect of his act of terrorism. [[User:The Sanity Inspector|The Sanity Inspector]] ([[User talk:The Sanity Inspector|talk]]) 16:48, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> * '''Yes''': Strong support in sources. Attempts to introduce the spurious standard of affiliation with and/or direction from a recognized terrorist organization is OR, and disingenuous. [[User:D.Creish|D.Creish]] ([[User talk:D.Creish|talk]]) 17:04, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> * ''''Yes.'''' Agreeing with all above &quot;yes&quot; reasons while also mentioning that the FBI has found no evidence Mateen was gay. http://www.nola.com/crime/index.ssf/2016/06/orlando_shooter_gay_omar_matee.html &lt;!-- Template:Unsigned --&gt;&lt;small&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—&amp;nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Marquis de Faux |Marquis de Faux ]] ([[User talk:Marquis de Faux |talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Marquis de Faux |contribs]]) 17:15, 30 June 2016&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/small&gt;<br /> *'''Strong Yes.''': He declared his support for ISIS during the attack. Quote from Mateen: &quot;“America and Russia stop bombing the Islamic state..I pledge my alliance to [Islamic State leader] abu bakr al Baghdadi ..may Allah accept me,” -- No evidence found that he was even gay. https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/investigation-into-orlando-shooting-continues-no-impending-charges-expected/2016/06/15/c3eccf5e-3333-11e6-8758-d58e76e11b12_story.html<br /> *'''Yes''' That the shooter may have had other motivations does not outweigh explicit declarations of allegiance to Islamist causes committed in an act of terror. The debate about whether the incident was a hate crime or terrorism strikes me as rather silly—it's quite clearly both. --[[User:BDD|BDD]] ([[User talk:BDD|talk]]) 17:34, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> * ''''Yes.'''' Given all information available from media and police sources, refusal to include this attack in the list is highly suspect, and reduces confidence in the impartiality of the site. Thou doth protest too much. [[User:Tim Riches|Tim Riches, Mississauga, Ontario]] ([[User talk:Tim Riches|talk]]) 17:39, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::{{User:EvergreenFir/Zombie|Tim Riches|7 months}} [[User:EvergreenFir|'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:#8b00ff;&quot;&gt;Eve&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#6528c2;&quot;&gt;rgr&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#3f5184;&quot;&gt;een&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#197947;&quot;&gt;Fir&lt;/span&gt;''']] [[User talk:EvergreenFir|(talk)]] &lt;small&gt;Please &amp;#123;&amp;#123;[[Template:re|re]]&amp;#125;&amp;#125;&lt;/small&gt; 00:23, 1 July 2016 (UTC) <br /> * ''''Emphatic Yes'''' This was clearly an attack motivated by and perpetrated by a fundamentalist Islamic agenda. If its in line with true Islamic beliefs or not, if it was coordinated with ISIS/ISIL/Daesh are irrelevant, Mateen believed he was acting within those confines. [[User:AdamJacobMuller|AdamJacobMuller]] ([[User talk:AdamJacobMuller|talk]]) 18:22, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::{{User:EvergreenFir/Zombie|AdamJacobMuller|4 years 10 months}} [[User:EvergreenFir|'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:#8b00ff;&quot;&gt;Eve&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#6528c2;&quot;&gt;rgr&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#3f5184;&quot;&gt;een&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#197947;&quot;&gt;Fir&lt;/span&gt;''']] [[User talk:EvergreenFir|(talk)]] &lt;small&gt;Please &amp;#123;&amp;#123;[[Template:re|re]]&amp;#125;&amp;#125;&lt;/small&gt; 00:23, 1 July 2016 (UTC) <br /> :::: Not sure if this is just an automated bot, or whatever, but I'm obviously not a sock-puppet. I have a long history on Wikipedia (much longer than my absence which is primarily due to simply not having time to edit wikipedia anymore) and I obviously continue to use it extensively just not editing anymore. Moreover I'm using my real name for my account. I simply saw this issue and felt it was important enough to comment on as I would like Wikipedia to continue to be an agenda-free source of information. [[User:AdamJacobMuller|AdamJacobMuller]] ([[User talk:AdamJacobMuller|talk]]) 03:44, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> * '''Strong yes''' Until more evidence is released it is impossible to say whether this was an ISIL attack directed by the organization, however it is beyond doubt that, given the released statements made by the shooter during the attack, this was motivated by Islamism. The [[Charleston church shooting]] is currently in the category ''White supremacy in the United States'' despite the perpetrator having had no formal links to white supremacist groups. The motive was determined via consulting his manifesto and circumstantial evidence about which websites he had visited. The article itself features statements that cast doubt over the white supremacist element of the attack -- ''&quot;I don't think the church was his primary target because he told us he was going for the school. But I think he couldn't get into the school because of the security ... so I think he just settled for the church.&quot;'' Mateen's manifesto was transmitted via phone calls and the transcript features numerous mentions of Islamism and ideas frequently expressed by groups that are clearly Islamist. He then pledges allegiance to ISIL, a group that is widely recognized as committing violence in the name of its heretical brand of Islam. If we're going to cast aspersions over one manifesto, then it would only seem unbiased to call the motive on the other attack suspect, too. As far as I am aware, the assailant knows the motive for his own attack and in this case the authorities themselves have released evidence that Mateen's motive was Islamist in nature. --[[User:Toomanyaccountsargh|Toomanyaccountsargh]] ([[User talk:Toomanyaccountsargh|talk]]) 18:54, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> * ''''Yes'''' Back in 2013 he made inflammatory comments about radical islam to his colleagues. http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/orlando-nightclub-massacre/terror-hate-what-motivated-orlando-nightclub-shooter-n590496 [[User:Fangfufu|Fangfufu]] ([[User talk:Fangfufu|talk]]) 18:56, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> * ''''Strong Yes'''' A man claims to be an Islamic soldier. Kills people while claiming his support for Islamic terrorist groups. Somehow this isn't islamic terrorism. What the absolute hell is wrong with the world when you look at a duck and call it a chicken? [[User:Sethyre|Sethyre]] ([[User talk:Sethyre|talk]]) 19:03, 30 June 2016 (UTC) <br /> * '''Yes''' Even IF the shooter also had homophobic motives, does NOT suddenly make his public allegiance to ISIS void. The simple fact is that he claimed a clear as can be a connection to an Islamic terrorist group, and that that group also acknowledged him as 'one of theirs'. It is bizarre that some Wikipedians are trying to fall back on 'no reliable sources', when everyone knows full well that it is purely a matter of time before 'reliable sources' will acknowledge that this fits the criteria for a Islamist terrorist attack. The fact that this attack could also fit the criteria for a different kind of (lone wolf) terrorism does not matter one bit. It does not suddenly invalidate the ISIS connections. It simply makes the situation more complex. But it HAS to be listed as an Islamist terrorist attack as well. [[User:Omegastar|Omegastar]] ([[User talk:Omegastar|talk]]) 19:35, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> * '''Strong Yes''' There is insufficient evidence to state that it was an ISIS attack, but there is sufficient evidence to state it was an Islamist terrorist attack. The shooter specifically stated on a 911 call during the shootings that he pledged allegiance to Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi of the Islamic State, and made multiple other references to Islam. [[User:Patpend|Patpend]] ([[User talk:Patpend|talk]]) 19:42, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::{{User:EvergreenFir/Zombie|Patpend|6 months}} [[User:EvergreenFir|'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:#8b00ff;&quot;&gt;Eve&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#6528c2;&quot;&gt;rgr&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#3f5184;&quot;&gt;een&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#197947;&quot;&gt;Fir&lt;/span&gt;''']] [[User talk:EvergreenFir|(talk)]] &lt;small&gt;Please &amp;#123;&amp;#123;[[Template:re|re]]&amp;#125;&amp;#125;&lt;/small&gt; 00:23, 1 July 2016 (UTC) <br /> * '''Strong yes''': The attacker swore his allegiance to the [[Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant|Islamic State]]. There is little doubt, based on [[RS]]-provided evidence, that he had some sort of religious-linked political motivations. However, these doubts are not relevant to the criteria outlined for this article. [[User:NuclearWizard|Nuke]] ([[User talk:NuclearWizard|talk]]) 19:50, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> * '''Yes''' for reasons stated by others. Mateen declared Islamic motives and whether he was motivated by homophobia and/or self-hatred is ultimately irrelevant. --[[User:DrCruse|DrCruse]] ([[User talk:DrCruse|talk]]) 19:54, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> *''''Strong Yes'''' There has been no evidence of homosexual tendencies by Omar Mateen. The FBI has said that it has found nothing to show that Mateen was on gay dating apps with any of the 20 email addresses they had for him and consider the claim of a man having participated in homosexual activities with Mateen to not be credible. That combined with his pledge of allegiance to ISIS should be enough. If the shooter had called the police and and said he was Napoleon, obviously no one would blame the French, but if the shooter had pledged his allegiance to Hitler's ideals or said he was committing these acts in the name of God there would be no dispute of whether or not the attack was a white supremacist or a Christian extremist attack, respectively. We wouldn't say that we have to prove he was either a member of the SS or a Catholic priest in order to call it what it is. Why is Islamic extremism treated differently? &lt;ref&gt;http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/26/us/was-the-orlando-gunman-gay-the-answer-continues-to-elude-the-fbi.html?_r=0&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-orlando-gay-fbi-20160623-snap-story.html&lt;/ref&gt;<br /> * '''Strong Yes''': Wikipedia is not a place to argue what should be included in history, it is to document it. The attacker was Islamic and this was a terrorist attack. It passes the logic of being an Islamist terrorist attack at face value. I count at least 20 other attacks done by similar &quot;lone&quot; attackers on this list that do not have definite ties to a RS approved Islamist Terrorist organization. If this attack is not included, editors MUST remove those other attacks. Which is obviously obsurd. The fact that there is this much discussion is a reminder to the Wikipedia community that it is under attack by bad actors trying to rewrite history. We can not stand for this as unbiased editors. [[User:Iksnyrk|Iksnyrk]] ([[User talk:Iksnyrk|talk]]) 20:03, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> *'''Obvious Yes''' The sourcing is quite clear. [[User:Arkon|Arkon]] ([[User talk:Arkon|talk]]) 20:06, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> * '''Strong Yes''': I am disappointed by some of the arguments here from what sound like very smart people. The list is titled &quot;List of Islamist terrorist attacks,&quot; not &quot;List of ISIL terrorist attacks.&quot; Similarly, when you look at Christian terrorism like the Wisconsin Sikh Temple massacre, I would label it as such even though the Catholic Church or Southern Baptist Convention or the United Methodist Church neither ordered nor condoned the attacks. No religion can boast a perfect record, and as such, each needs to be called out on the issues when an attack is inspired by its ideology. True, homophobia was clearly a factor in Mateen's motive; each Abrahamic faith condemns homosexuality to some degree of another (Leviticus 20:13, Abu Dawud 4462). Furthermore, as a Christian, I see the church constantly struggle with these matters, as I have wrestled them in my own mind as well. Mateen is definitively a virulent homophobe according to his father's words; however, he was also driven by an ideology that necessitates the killing of homosexuals, among other groups. Many other arguments of mine have been enumerated here, and as such I will conclude by saying this: when we refuse to call an apple an apple, we run the risk of permitting what Orwell termed &quot;the ministry of truth.&quot; [[User:Jrcoyne99|Jrcoyne99]] ([[User talk:Jrcoyne99|talk]]) 20:07, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::{{spa|Jrcoyne99}} [[User:EvergreenFir|'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:#8b00ff;&quot;&gt;Eve&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#6528c2;&quot;&gt;rgr&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#3f5184;&quot;&gt;een&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#197947;&quot;&gt;Fir&lt;/span&gt;''']] [[User talk:EvergreenFir|(talk)]] &lt;small&gt;Please &amp;#123;&amp;#123;[[Template:re|re]]&amp;#125;&amp;#125;&lt;/small&gt; 00:17, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::: Just for the record, I have contributed to other articles before including historical topics, politics, and science fiction. I created an account specifically for this discussion. Also, someone's argument or point of view is not invalidated simply because expressing it is their first acti or one of few on the platform. It's just that for some of us this is an important matter. [[User:Jrcoyne99|Jrcoyne99]] ([[User talk:Jrcoyne99|talk]]) 02:27, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> * '''Yes''' For reasons already stated above. &lt;span style=&quot;background:#FF0000;font-type Monotype Corsiva&quot;&gt;[[User:Tills|&lt;font color=&quot;#FFFFFF&quot;&gt;Tills&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;background:#0000FF;font: Monotype Corsiva&quot;&gt;[[User_talk:Tills|&lt;font color=&quot;#FFFFFF&quot;&gt;Talk&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 20:25, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::{{User:EvergreenFir/Zombie|Tills|11 months}} [[User:EvergreenFir|'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:#8b00ff;&quot;&gt;Eve&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#6528c2;&quot;&gt;rgr&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#3f5184;&quot;&gt;een&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#197947;&quot;&gt;Fir&lt;/span&gt;''']] [[User talk:EvergreenFir|(talk)]] &lt;small&gt;Please &amp;#123;&amp;#123;[[Template:re|re]]&amp;#125;&amp;#125;&lt;/small&gt; 00:17, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::So what's the purpose for posting this? Is my opinion not relevant since I'm no longer an active editor? &lt;span style=&quot;background:#FF0000;font-type Monotype Corsiva&quot;&gt;[[User:Tills|&lt;font color=&quot;#FFFFFF&quot;&gt;Tills&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;background:#0000FF;font: Monotype Corsiva&quot;&gt;[[User_talk:Tills|&lt;font color=&quot;#FFFFFF&quot;&gt;Talk&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 05:56, 1 July 2016 (UTC) <br /> :::::It's the same as marking [[WP:SPA]]s. Given the canvassing occurring via Breitbart, such info can be useful to the closing admin when considering comments. [[User:EvergreenFir|'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:#8b00ff;&quot;&gt;Eve&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#6528c2;&quot;&gt;rgr&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#3f5184;&quot;&gt;een&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#197947;&quot;&gt;Fir&lt;/span&gt;''']] [[User talk:EvergreenFir|(talk)]] &lt;small&gt;Please &amp;#123;&amp;#123;[[Template:re|re]]&amp;#125;&amp;#125;&lt;/small&gt; 06:01, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> * '''Yes''' The list consist of terror attacks committed by Islamic extremists. Omar was an Islamic extremist, so surely the event should be added to the list. [[User:CoverMyIP|CoverMyIP]] ([[User talk:CoverMyIP|talk]]) 20:34, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::{{User:EvergreenFir/Zombie|CoverMyIP|8 months}} [[User:EvergreenFir|'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:#8b00ff;&quot;&gt;Eve&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#6528c2;&quot;&gt;rgr&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#3f5184;&quot;&gt;een&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#197947;&quot;&gt;Fir&lt;/span&gt;''']] [[User talk:EvergreenFir|(talk)]] &lt;small&gt;Please &amp;#123;&amp;#123;[[Template:re|re]]&amp;#125;&amp;#125;&lt;/small&gt; 00:17, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> * '''Strong Yes''' I believe the shooter himself qualifies as an RS, and he made his motivation for the attack clear in his public statements. It is not for us to second-guess his motivation. [[User:AlanSiegrist|AlanSiegrist]] ([[User talk:AlanSiegrist|talk]]) 20:54, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> * '''Strong Yes''': This clearly meets all criteria and there are countless sources. [[User:Singleiron|Singleiron]] ([[User talk:Singleiron|talk]]) 21:25, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::{{User:EvergreenFir/Zombie|Singleiron|7 months}} [[User:EvergreenFir|'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:#8b00ff;&quot;&gt;Eve&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#6528c2;&quot;&gt;rgr&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#3f5184;&quot;&gt;een&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#197947;&quot;&gt;Fir&lt;/span&gt;''']] [[User talk:EvergreenFir|(talk)]] &lt;small&gt;Please &amp;#123;&amp;#123;[[Template:re|re]]&amp;#125;&amp;#125;&lt;/small&gt; 00:23, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> * '''Yes''' - Meets the criteria for inclusion: It has been widely reported as a terrorist attack, the perpetrator [https://www.fbi.gov/tampa/press-releases/2016/investigative-update-regarding-pulse-nightclub-shooting identified himself as an Islamic soldier] to ''further a perceived Islamic religious or political cause'' (tell America to stop bombing Syria and Iraq and that is why he was “out here right now.”)--[[User:Isaidnoway|&lt;font face=&quot;Times New Roman&quot; color=&quot;blue&quot;&gt; '''''Isaidnoway''''' &lt;/font&gt;]][[User talk:Isaidnoway|&lt;font face=&quot;Times New Roman&quot; color=&quot;blue&quot;&gt;'''''(talk)'''''&lt;/font&gt;]] 21:26, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> *'''No'''. Imputing &quot;Islamic motivation&quot; to the Orlando shooter reminds me of the semi-hysterical tendency in the 1950s and 1960s to attribute all kinds of problems to Communist subversion. Comment below. ~ [[User:J. Johnson|J.&amp;nbsp;Johnson (JJ)]] ([[User_talk:J. Johnson#top|talk]]) 22:32, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> * '''Strong Yes''': I can't believe this is up for debate. Strong yes in agreement with all others' arguments. &lt;!-- Template:Unsigned --&gt;&lt;small&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—&amp;nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:24.164.94.198|24.164.94.198]] ([[User talk:24.164.94.198|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/24.164.94.198|contribs]]) &lt;/span&gt;&lt;/small&gt;<br /> * '''Yes''': We have multiple reliable sources which state that he pledged his allegiance to ISIS (an Islamist terrorist group) and mentioned the Boston Marathon bombers in a phone call to authorities. It was a terrorist attack, again as attested by multiple reliable sources, including the US government (President Obama himself called it such). It meets all the criteria for inclusion on this list. [[user:Titanium Dragon|&lt;span style=&quot;background-color:{{ trim | silver }}; color:{{ trim | }};&quot;&gt;{{ trim | '''Titanium Dragon''' }}&lt;/span&gt;]] ([[user talk:Titanium Dragon|talk]]) 23:40, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> *:{{ping|Titanium Dragon}} The title of this article is not [[List of terrorist attacks]]. If the US government or Obama have unequivocally labeled Orlando an Islamic terrorist attack, could you provide a link to that? &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#AAA;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 23:57, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> *::{{ping|Mandruss}}: &quot;So whatever the motivations of the killer, whatever influences led him down the path of violence and terror, whatever propaganda he was consuming from ISIL and al Qaeda, this was an act of terrorism but it was also an act of hate.&quot; Per [http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2016/06/19/lynch_partial_transcript_of_orlando_911_calls_will_have_references_to_isis_cut_out.html]. Obama does not use the term Islamist in relation to ISIS/ISIL/Islamic State or Al Qaeda for propaganda reasons, as he has noted previously: &quot;We are not at war with Islam. We are at war with people who have perverted Islam,&quot; Obama said during remarks at a summit on combating violent extremism in February. &quot;These terrorists are desperate for legitimacy. And all of us have a responsibility to refute the notion that groups like ISIL somehow represent Islam, because that is a falsehood that embraces the terrorist narrative.&quot; Per [http://www.cnn.com/2016/06/13/politics/islamic-terrorism-trump-obama-clinton/]. However, ISIS and Al Qaeda are undoubtedly Islamist groups, and are defined as such by Wikipedia and innumerable sources, and he himself acknowledges it as a perversion of Islam. Given that the perpetrator declared his allegiance to the Islamic State, and the attacks were driven by his Islamist beliefs, as supported by many sources provided, including the FBI's own transcript of the call, there's really no room for doubt from the RSs. [[user:Titanium Dragon|&lt;span style=&quot;background-color:{{ trim | silver }}; color:{{ trim | }};&quot;&gt;{{ trim | '''Titanium Dragon''' }}&lt;/span&gt;]] ([[user talk:Titanium Dragon|talk]]) 01:56, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> * '''Strong Yes''' The FBI, CNN, and CBS all stated the same thing. End of discussion. [[User:R00b07|R00b07]] ([[User talk:R00b07|talk]]) 23:42, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> *'''Yes''' Mateen clearly was an Islamist terrorist and stated as much in his 911 call. His support of other islamist terror is well established in reliable sources. His association with ISIL is more questionable but his islamist terror connection is not. Self-radicalized terrorism is still terrorism. --[[User:DHeyward|DHeyward]] ([[User talk:DHeyward|talk]]) 23:50, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> *'''No'''. Maybe he was gay. Maybe he was just a schizophrenic who escaped everyone's notice until it was too late. Maybe he actually was a jihadist. But on something this raw, something so high-profile, something being used as political ammunition so readily by non-victims, it seems imprudent to slap an &quot;Islamist terrorist attack&quot; tag on it and call it a day when errors in reporting tend to be accompanied by widely-ignored and slightly discreet retractions, if there are any at all. And since we are the 'de facto' source for so much of the English-speaking world, it is imperative that we make no mistake on the accuracy of this. There is no [[WP:DEADLINE]]. I urge that it be not added, as if it is added in error, more people stand to lose, to be hurt, to be discriminated against, than if it were to be added later, when the smoke has cleared and tempers cooled, without error, if at all. &lt;font face=&quot;#&quot; color=&quot;#35b794&quot;&gt;[[User:Dschslava|'''Dsch'''slava]]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;#3558b7&quot;&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contribs/Dschslava|'' Δx '']]&lt;/sup&gt;[[User talk:Dschslava|parlez moi]]&lt;/font&gt; 00:05, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> **Why stop with your speculation there? Maybe he was angry about the Treaty of Ghent, or the cancellation of Firefly. Who can say? If we're willing to go so far as to ignore the terrorist's ''own statements on the matter'', we might as well just make up anything we please. [[Special:Contributions/2601:602:9802:99B2:F1DB:D95B:C7B2:2EE0|2601:602:9802:99B2:F1DB:D95B:C7B2:2EE0]] ([[User talk:2601:602:9802:99B2:F1DB:D95B:C7B2:2EE0|talk]]) 04:55, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> **Then we should probably rename the page to &quot;List of Islamist terrorist attacks by clinically-sane heterosexuals.&quot; What difference does it make if he was gay or schizophrenic? He's still an Islamist, he still committed an act of terror, so doesn't that make the shooting an Islamist terror attack? The term &quot;Islamist terrorist attack&quot; is the most accurate term we could possibly use to describe this event, and it really seems like you're saying we should put a hypothetical person's feelings above factual accuracy. [[User:Vektor00|Vektor00]] ([[User talk:Vektor00|talk]]) 03:04, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::I'll reply to both of the IPs' comments here, for brevity's sake. I never said that it should never be added. I never said that it should either. The key part of my reasoning is {{tq|I urge that it be not added, as if it is added in error, more people stand to lose, to be hurt, to be discriminated against, than if it were to be added later, '''when the smoke has cleared and tempers cooled''', without error, if at all}}. Seeing as the markedly increased activity present in part caused by certain media attention is certainly not working in anyone's favor, I'm advising that we leave it alone for now and come back later when, say, all this furor has dissipated. To do otherwise could cause even more media attention, resulting in scores more flocking to this RfC with politically motivated reasons blatant and not-so-blatant, which is the exact opposite of what we want. Look at the problems that we are facing right now, in comparison. &lt;font face=&quot;#&quot; color=&quot;#35b794&quot;&gt;[[User:Dschslava|'''Dsch'''slava]]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;#3558b7&quot;&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contribs/Dschslava|'' Δx '']]&lt;/sup&gt;[[User talk:Dschslava|parlez moi]]&lt;/font&gt; 06:38, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::: &quot;I urge that it be not added, as if it is added in error, more people stand to lose, to be hurt, to be discriminated against, than if it were to be added later, when the smoke has cleared and tempers cooled&quot; The purpose of Wikipedia is not to eliminate discrimination or protect people's feelings, noble as those causes are; the purpose of Wikipedia is to disseminate accurate information. Whether or not such accurate information causes discrimination or hurt is completely irrelevant. [[Special:Contributions/2601:602:9802:99B2:F1DB:D95B:C7B2:2EE0|2601:602:9802:99B2:F1DB:D95B:C7B2:2EE0]] ([[User talk:2601:602:9802:99B2:F1DB:D95B:C7B2:2EE0|talk]]) 06:47, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::::I am fully aware of that. Perhaps I shouldn't have included that part; it's not really part of my argument anyways. The bolded part, however, is. This is a huge mess, and I have half a mind to file another ANI thread while at it. Who knows, maybe we'll all be dragged to ARBCOM. &lt;font face=&quot;#&quot; color=&quot;#35b794&quot;&gt;[[User:Dschslava|'''Dsch'''slava]]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;#3558b7&quot;&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contribs/Dschslava|'' Δx '']]&lt;/sup&gt;[[User talk:Dschslava|parlez moi]]&lt;/font&gt; 07:03, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> ** Since he pledged allegiance to ISIS, how about we look at that as a small, minor, potential motivation for killing 50 gay people? Maybe, just maybe? [[User:R00b07|R00b07]] ([[User talk:R00b07|talk]]) 00:23, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::{{u|Rb00b7}}, I'm very sure that I addressed that in my original !vote already. &lt;font face=&quot;#&quot; color=&quot;#35b794&quot;&gt;[[User:Dschslava|'''Dsch'''slava]]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;#3558b7&quot;&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contribs/Dschslava|'' Δx '']]&lt;/sup&gt;[[User talk:Dschslava|parlez moi]]&lt;/font&gt; 00:38, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::: Rb00b7? That is the most subtle insult ever. [[User:R00b07|R00b07]] ([[User talk:R00b07|talk]]) 01:43, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::::{{u|R00b07}}, I'm sorry. My eyes got crossed with those number-letter lookalikes. No harm intended. Actually, how about [[WP:AGF]], seeing as you espouse it so prominently on your userpage? &lt;font face=&quot;#&quot; color=&quot;#35b794&quot;&gt;[[User:Dschslava|'''Dsch'''slava]]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;#3558b7&quot;&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contribs/Dschslava|'' Δx '']]&lt;/sup&gt;[[User talk:Dschslava|parlez moi]]&lt;/font&gt; 04:59, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::::::: I was assuming Good Faith, just making a bad joke. Sorry [[User:R00b07|R00b07]] ([[User talk:R00b07|talk]]) 06:04, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> *'''Yes''' I can't believe we're even arguing this. --[[User:Harizotoh9|Harizotoh9]] ([[User talk:Harizotoh9|talk]]) 00:42, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> *'''Yes''' Mateen connected the attack to ISIS. (Of course there are also other dimensions.) [[User:Jason from nyc|Jason from nyc]] ([[User talk:Jason from nyc|talk]]) 02:08, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> *'''Yes''': I tend not to get involved in political arguments, as pop culture and other less-sensitive subjects are more my specialty. However, with the evidence available at the present time from credible sources, I find that it is fairly clear that the Orlando attack should be included in the list. Of course, Islamic terrorism may not have been the sole cause for the attack, but it certainly appears to have been an ingredient. --'''&lt;span style=&quot;background-color:white;color:#2929EE;&quot;&gt; Matthew&lt;/span&gt;''' - ([[User_talk:MatthewHoobin|talk]] · [[User:MatthewHoobin|userpage]] · [[Special:Contributions/MatthewHoobin|contributions]]) 05:49, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> * '''Strong Yes''': Not only do we have the killer's own statement, but cited sources from the FBI, CNN and a ton of other places that overwhelmingly qualify as WP:RS. This attack has more reliable sources supporting this claim than pretty much any other attack on this list. The fact that this is even up for debate is asinine and shows a ridiculous bias by some editors here seemingly desperate to defend the good name of Islamic terrorism. --[[User:TheTruthiness|TheTruthiness]] ([[User talk:TheTruthiness|talk]]) 07:55, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> * '''Strong Yes''': For reasons cited by others. Briefly, killer cited allegiance to ISIS but more importantly, but more importantly, the entity in question has an explicit policy of encouraging and inciting such individual actions and has, similarly, explicitly taken credit. [[User:Muldrake|Muldrake]] ([[User talk:Muldrake|talk]]) <br /> *'''Yes''' per sourced statements from FBI and others. Really a no brainer here. [[User:Mr Ernie|Mr Ernie]] ([[User talk:Mr Ernie|talk]]) 12:28, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> *'''Yes''' If the FBI and CNN says so. They are reliable sources. [[User:Supergodzilla2090|Supergodzilla2090]] ([[User talk:Supergodzilla2090|talk]]) 18:03, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> * '''Strong Yes''': A muslim man shot up a nightclub under the pretense of Radical Islam. ISIL later took credit for it. Who cares if it was carried out on ISIL's instruction or not? ISIL has sent messages to Extremists in the US and other western countries to continue carrying out LONE WOLF attacks. ISIL can't personally endorse each and every attempted bombing. They only take credit once the deed is done. The Orlando shooting was one of these encouraged lone wolf attacks, and while ISIL didn't plan it, they certainly took credit. We would be disrespecting the deceased victims names if we don't include this as Islamic Terror. [[User:Battlefront228|Battlefront228]] ([[User talk:Battlefront228|talk]]) 19:39, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ====Call for [[WP:SNOW]] close====<br /> Could someone (preferably someone with experience closing contentious RfCs and no strong feeling on the issue at hand) please apply [[WP:SNOW]] and close this RfC? --[[User:Guy Macon|Guy Macon]] ([[User talk:Guy Macon|talk]]) 22:46, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :There is no SNOW here. Articulate arguments have been made on both sides. &lt;s&gt;That said, consensus is not about numbers, and I can't imagine that there are any significant new arguments to be made, so I wouldn't oppose an early close.&lt;/s&gt; &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#AAA;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 22:54, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::Agree. {{U|Guy Macon}}, this got flooded by Breitbart readers. Just because a ton of people showed up today to !vote yes doesn't mean there's consensus. [[User:EvergreenFir|'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:#8b00ff;&quot;&gt;Eve&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#6528c2;&quot;&gt;rgr&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#3f5184;&quot;&gt;een&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#197947;&quot;&gt;Fir&lt;/span&gt;''']] [[User talk:EvergreenFir|(talk)]] &lt;small&gt;Please &amp;#123;&amp;#123;[[Template:re|re]]&amp;#125;&amp;#125;&lt;/small&gt; 23:18, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::(edit conflict) This is not a [[WP:SNOW]], and even less so because there are serious [[WP:CANVASSING]] issues raised by the Breitbart article, and the fact that this seems to have blown up with new and dormant accounts after it was published. <br /> ::I would oppose an early close. I don't care which way it goes, but I think it's a serious [[WP:POV]] issue to rush to a conclusion after another website makes a decision on what they think WP should say, and apparently sends a mob here. It's not going to be the end of the world if this sits for a day or two. [[User:Timothyjosephwood|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#a56d3f;font-family:Impact;&quot;&gt;Timothy&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#6f3800;font-family:Impact;&quot;&gt;Joseph&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#422501;font-family:Impact;&quot;&gt;Wood&lt;/span&gt;]] 23:23, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::Withdraw my non-opposition to early close, pending a resolution at [[Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard#More eyes on List of Islamist terrorist attacks]]. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#AAA;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 23:31, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :We don't run an RfC for 8 days, and then quickly close the RfC after multiple sleeper accounts have been canvased by a radical right wing blog. - [[user: MrX|Mr]][[user talk:MrX|X]] 23:30, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::Agreed. Just like we didn't close it even earlier when more of the radical left wings were saying no. We let it run it's course like most RfC's. [[User:Fyunck(click)|Fyunck(click)]] ([[User talk:Fyunck(click)|talk]]) 00:44, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::Staying open simply to accumulate more &quot;me too&quot; !votes is counter to the principle that consensus is not about numbers. If you can show evidence that a large number of &quot;radical left wing&quot; !votes are from single-purpose accounts solicited from off-wiki, please do. Barring that, you have presented a false equivalence. Anyway, if it's true that it's not about numbers, I don't know that the Breitbart invasion can do much damage. Hopefully the closer will have the wisdom to look beyond the numbers and, to the extent they consider them at all, will also look at the !voters' contribs. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#AAA;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 01:01, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::I'd say there's little hope in gauging a consensus until the sleepers go back to sleep. I wouldn't even bother arguing the point until tomorrow. Partisan arguments will only encourage those brought here for partisan reasons. [[User:Timothyjosephwood|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#a56d3f;font-family:Impact;&quot;&gt;Timothy&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#6f3800;font-family:Impact;&quot;&gt;Joseph&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#422501;font-family:Impact;&quot;&gt;Wood&lt;/span&gt;]] 01:44, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::::::Those that are here for partisan reasons were here before the article even came out. In my opinion, that's why the articles were written in the first place. [[User:R00b07|R00b07]] ([[User talk:R00b07|talk]]) 01:48, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::::The accounts you dismiss as &quot;sleepers&quot; appear to be more cognizant—or more able to find sources for their arguments—than many of the no voters, who have relied upon now superseded evidence about &quot;gay lovers&quot; and a particularly bizarre argument about aliens. That users are attempting to blithely dismiss the ''yes'' cohort as &quot;canvased by radical right wing blog&quot; seems to suggest a number of accounts on the ''no'' side have an agenda just as transparent. As far as I'm concerned, any doubts over motive could have been mentioned in the description of the attack, and if the no vote succeeds then there will appear to be a false consensus, which will be argued over endlessly by users citing a significant number of quality sources to support the inclusion of the attack. --[[User:Toomanyaccountsargh|Toomanyaccountsargh]] ([[User talk:Toomanyaccountsargh|talk]]) 05:49, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::::It's funny you should mention that; I took the time to go back through the entire RFC (and indeed this talk page X_x) to examine the argument from the side of the nays - and except for some quotes from MrX in an early statement above there actually isn't a single linked piece of evidence from any RS to rebut the statement &quot;The Orlando shooting was a terrorist display of Islamic Fundamentalism.&quot; The quotes from MrX are wrong in twofold; one from early in the case when information was scarce and motivation unclear, and another stating that Mateen was not a full member of a terror organization - which while apparently true does not mean this wasn't a Islamist terror attack (you don't need to join ISIL to kill for Islam). Every single other argument I can find is either completely OR or a statement of neutrality or confusion over motivations, quote possibly due to editors not having read the new official FBI information. Just to sum this up cogently; there isn't a single Wiki-essentials based argument as to the nays here, and very much many for the ayes with all the requisite sources and weight. EDIT: Or rather, no '''new''' information to rebut the ayes. There's plenty of older articles and sources that ponder and report on several rumors and fallacies that have been stated officially by the FBI as false as of this point, which I don't feel bear repeating or applying due to the new given information - unless someone wants to make a case that the original rumor mills are more reliable and weighty then the recent official FBI releases and the news coverage thereof? [[Special:Contributions/69.114.53.16|69.114.53.16]] ([[User talk:69.114.53.16|talk]]) 06:22, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> There is only one way this RfC is going to turn out. Better to cut the drama and close it right now. Even if you remove the &quot;sleepers&quot;, there are plenty of other Yes votes. [[User:Kingsindian|Kingsindian]]&amp;nbsp;[[User Talk: Kingsindian|&amp;#9821;]]&amp;nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Kingsindian|&amp;#9818;]] 07:18, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> :There is a risk that following Breitbart getting its panties in a bunch over this, the article is going to exactly what Omar Mateen wanted, which is to describe the work of a deranged loner who wanted attention as an Islamic terrorist attack.--'''''[[User:ianmacm|&lt;span style=&quot;background:#88b;color:#cff;font-variant:small-caps&quot;&gt;♦Ian&lt;span style=&quot;background:#99c&quot;&gt;Ma&lt;span style=&quot;background:#aad&quot;&gt;c&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;M♦&lt;/span&gt;]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:ianmacm|(talk to me)]]&lt;/sup&gt;''''' 07:24, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::See, I have a problem with that reasoning - it's completely unsubstantiated OR. There's no problem with editors believing that, but that's not a Wiki-appropriate argument towards nay (though it's been repeated a few times). Mateen himself, the FBI, news organizations reporting on the FBI findings and plenty of talking head quotes all agree that this was indeed an Islamist terrorist attack. Even regardless of whether or not Mateen wanted it as such, it still clearly fulfills those stipulations both as an event and as a Wikipedia article that should be listed here, due to weight and sources. It's been great that people were protecting this page when everything was fuzzy as I said below (this is 69.114.53.16, bit the bullet made an account) but clearly things have changed. To continue and deny this to be listed as an Islamist attack without several supporting RS's - following the new information beyond the rumor mills - would be very strange, in my opinion. [[User:SpeakerOfReason|SpeakerOfReason]] ([[User talk:SpeakerOfReason|talk]]) 07:38, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::As I've said over at [[Talk:2016 Orlando nightclub shooting]], many people are making the assumption that Mateen was of sound mind when he carried out the attack. He may or may not have been legally insane, but there are numerous reports that he was mentally unstable and had expressed hatred of gays etc. This makes the motive less clear cut than a straightforward terrorist attack. The problem with categories and lists is that they do not allow for any nuances and end up with a [[false dichotomy]] (black/white, yes/no) when things are more complicated than this simplistic version.--'''''[[User:ianmacm|&lt;span style=&quot;background:#88b;color:#cff;font-variant:small-caps&quot;&gt;♦Ian&lt;span style=&quot;background:#99c&quot;&gt;Ma&lt;span style=&quot;background:#aad&quot;&gt;c&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;M♦&lt;/span&gt;]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:ianmacm|(talk to me)]]&lt;/sup&gt;''''' 07:42, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::And I completely agree with everything you just said personally; the dismantling of our mental health care system and the silence of America on the topic is horrendous as a general point of information - but that doesn't apply to Wikipedia. I'm of the opinion that anyone who decides to bomb/shoot a crowd of people is most definitely not of sound mind; but not being all there mentally doesn't mean he wasn't doing it for Islam as well. Having mental health issues and being a terrorist aren't mutually exclusive, and while reports speaking of his mental health are also important information there's a huge amount of weight of sources also claiming as fact that he was an Islamist terrorist. Almost nothing in life is straightforward, and the same could be said about any bomber/shooter on this list as well as Mateen. None of this precludes the Orlando shooting from being added to this list, and anyone who reads that article (whether found through the list or otherwise) will be able to attain the more detailed information that surrounds it. Speaking of working on the Orlando article, I don't know if the sources quoted all around were actually taken from the Orlando page or if they're new but all the stuff linked around would be helpful to mine for it, if they weren't there already - just in case anyone was interested and hadn't considered it. [[User:SpeakerOfReason|SpeakerOfReason]] ([[User talk:SpeakerOfReason|talk]]) 07:56, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::While RS is essential, it is not everything. [[WP:ONUS]]: ''While information must be verifiable in order to be included in an article, this does not mean that all verifiable information must be included in an article. Consensus may determine that certain information does not improve an article, and that it should be omitted or presented instead in a different article.'' I'd suggest that the yeas stop implying that nays, established editors in good standing, are policy-ignorant bozos and/or POV zealots. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#AAA;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 07:57, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::No, I've totally been on your side in regards to protecting the article (and never did/meant to call anyone a POV zealot - unless you aren't referring to me?), but things have changed with more recent information - specifically the FBI statements and news/talking head coverage of. [[WP:DUE]] and [[WP:WEIGHT]], and I'd say the weight of discussion here and the due of the new information makes it pretty clear this is information starkly relevant and necessary for the article regarding it - the side effect of which ends up with the article being listed here, due to RS's attributing and confirming Islamist motivations. The fact that there is a large conflict of information at all from the rumor mills beforehand and the new information now is pretty important as well - I've said several times that that article is rife for a subsection specifically on that subject - but there's every reason (from onus, due, and weight) that the information should be included, and no Wikipedia reason it should not. [[User:SpeakerOfReason|SpeakerOfReason]] ([[User_talk:SpeakerOfReason|be gentle!]]) 08:27, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::::No, I wasn't referring to you. But I question the value of more circular discussion, which is accomplishing little but creating more for the closer to read. I've stated my argument as concisely as I can in my !vote (updating it as my thinking has crystalized), and I'm going to try to sit it out from here on. I wouldn't presume to insist that others do the same, but I hope most of them will. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#AAA;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 08:37, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::::I mean I totally understand your point of view on the matter with regards to how closely we define acts of terror in context with links to actual terror groups - I think if there's even the slightest reason why the Orlando shooting shouldn't be on this list, it would be yours - I just don't think we can quibble regarding the details when there's so many places in the new information where &quot;Islamic/Islamist Terrorist&quot; is confirmed by RS. I just don't agree completely with your point because this isn't a list of &quot;Official Terrorist Group Attacks&quot; but &quot;List of Islamist terrorist attacks&quot; and sole gunman/bombers (in that context) should qualify. [[User:SpeakerOfReason|SpeakerOfReason]] ([[User_talk:SpeakerOfReason|be gentle!]]) 08:46, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::::::I get it. I understand and respect your position. But the point of an RfC is to convince the closer, not each other. I have VERY rarely seen an editor change their mind as a result of RfC discussion, and the majority of those few times it was me. Ergo, extended discussion is largely a waste of time, and I've felt this way in every long RfC I've ever seen. We convince the closer, or not, mostly in our !votes and perhaps a bit of discussion immediately following them. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#AAA;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 08:55, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> * I support the call for a SNOW close. [[User:D.Creish|D.Creish]] ([[User talk:D.Creish|talk]]) 14:26, 1 July 2016 (UTC)f<br /> <br /> === Discussion ===<br /> See discussion [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:List_of_Islamist_terrorist_attacks#Orlando_shooting here]. Further comments can be added below. [[User:Kingsindian|Kingsindian]]&amp;nbsp;[[User Talk: Kingsindian|&amp;#9821;]]&amp;nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Kingsindian|&amp;#9818;]] 00:44, 23 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> I have left a message on the talk page [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:2016_Orlando_nightclub_shooting#RfC_input_welcomed here]. [[User:Kingsindian|Kingsindian]]&amp;nbsp;[[User Talk: Kingsindian|&amp;#9821;]]&amp;nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Kingsindian|&amp;#9818;]] 15:53, 23 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> *Comment - The info regarding Mateen's alleged lover is currently just a rumor and a claim made by one person (to the best of my knowledge). We cannot treat it as anything but that. Should investigators corroborate that he was indeed his lover, that would be different. But afaik, we don't have that corroboration yet. [[User:EvergreenFir|'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:#8b00ff;&quot;&gt;Eve&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#6528c2;&quot;&gt;rgr&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#3f5184;&quot;&gt;een&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#197947;&quot;&gt;Fir&lt;/span&gt;''']] [[User talk:EvergreenFir|(talk)]] &lt;small&gt;Please &amp;#123;&amp;#123;[[Template:re|re]]&amp;#125;&amp;#125;&lt;/small&gt; 16:24, 23 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> *:Right. It's about as credible as ISIL taking credit for the shooting.- [[user: MrX|Mr]][[user talk:MrX|X]] 01:47, 24 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::: A more cogent point I have yet to see regarding this travesty. Thank you, MrX. &lt;&gt; [[User:Alt lys er svunnet hen|Alt lys er svunnet hen]] ([[User talk:Alt lys er svunnet hen|talk]]) 08:51, 28 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::It is important to bear in mind that the authorities have had a significant rethink about the motives since the first 24 hours after the shooting. Immediately afterwards, it seemed plausible that this was a rerun of the Bataclan theatre shooting. While the Orlando shooting was similar in its style, Omar Mateen was a lot like previous U.S. mass shooters and may have added radical Islam into the mix after reading some online propaganda material. He may have been trying to big it up when all he really wanted was notoriety, like many previous mass shooters.--'''''[[User:ianmacm|&lt;span style=&quot;background:#88b;color:#cff;font-variant:small-caps&quot;&gt;♦Ian&lt;span style=&quot;background:#99c&quot;&gt;Ma&lt;span style=&quot;background:#aad&quot;&gt;c&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;M♦&lt;/span&gt;]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:ianmacm|(talk to me)]]&lt;/sup&gt;''''' 04:57, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::::Let's say this is true; does this automatically mean that the fact he claimed allegiance to the Islamic terrorist groups null and void? Are we to dismiss the fact he said &quot;I'm committing these acts in the name of Islam&quot;? (not actual quote but you get what I mean) I'd argue that it's just more information on top of what we already know, which is that this is an self-described Islamic terrorist attack. New evidence does not make it any more or less of a terrorist attack. [[User:Sethyre|Sethyre]] ([[User talk:Sethyre|talk]]) 19:24, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::::To further what Sethyre has said, Mateen claimed it as an Islamic attack himself - to the authorities directly, disregarding the other supporting facts - the Islamic terror group in question claimed responsibility (or more pertinent perhaps, their approval) and the FBI themselves, primary authorities investigating the matter, also stated it was driven at least in large part by Mateens Islamic beliefs. Many reliable sources - repeatedly quoted and linked in different places in this RfC - have quoted this language directly, and several even reporting it in their own voices. Regardless of statements of &quot;confusion&quot; made by third parties and other talking heads, is not any form of action other then directly recording the news and these statements (perhaps with a conflict section specifically on this matter, if such is still opined by others as somehow incorrect with good sources) given their weight on this issue anything more then OR or POV? As I stated in the edit request further down, I don't normally comment on Wikipedia, and as such shall remain an IP - whether you feel that takes credibility away from my reasoning or not is up to you, but the reporting on this case is pretty clear cut from where I'm sitting. [[Special:Contributions/69.114.53.16|69.114.53.16]] ([[User talk:69.114.53.16|talk]]) 20:33, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::::::It is completely irrelevant whether or not he also had other motives for his attack - many Islamist terrorist attacks are also hate crimes, or are enacted to gain revenge for some real or imagined slight. The fact that he actively pledged allegiance to ISIS, had a history of sympathizing with radical Islamist beliefs, that the US government has agreed that his Islamist beliefs played a role in the attack, and that ISIS took credit for it all points towards it being an Islamist attack. If he had other motives as well, that doesn't change the fact that he still belongs on this list. [[user:Titanium Dragon|&lt;span style=&quot;background-color:{{ trim | silver }}; color:{{ trim | }};&quot;&gt;{{ trim | '''Titanium Dragon''' }}&lt;/span&gt;]] ([[user talk:Titanium Dragon|talk]]) 23:47, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> *'''Yes''' The fact that we are discussing this shows some of the fundamental flaws in Wikipedia (much as I love it) that are disappointing. We are not required to give both sides equal time, this isn't a 24 hour news program where 1 outlier who believes aliens gave us technology gets to debate 1 professor who says they didn't. The terrorist left a claim, it's been reported many times, there should be no dispute - and yet - here we are :sigh:. [[User:BHC|BHC]] ([[User talk:BHC|talk]]) 20:37, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> *: Your vote is in the wrong place {{ping|BHC}} I suggest you move it to the appropriate subsection (in this case 6.1 Survey). [[User:Mr rnddude|Mr rnddude]] ([[User talk:Mr rnddude|talk]]) 23:26, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> * For all of you &quot;strong yes&quot;-ers: if someone, in the course of committing an extravagant outrage, proclaimed &quot;allegiance&quot; to extra-terrestial aliens, would that prove he was an extra-terrestial alien? ~ [[User:J. Johnson|J.&amp;nbsp;Johnson (JJ)]] ([[User_talk:J. Johnson#top|talk]]) 22:35, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::: If other attacks on this page have been listed for just the attacker pledging their allegiance to Islamist groups, what is the reasoning for not allowing the Orlando Shooting on the list? &lt;!-- Template:Unsigned --&gt;&lt;small&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—&amp;nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:2601:40d:8100:e810::2|2601:40d:8100:e810::2]] ([[User talk:2601:40d:8100:e810::2|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/2601:40d:8100:e810::2|contribs]]) &lt;/span&gt;&lt;/small&gt;<br /> ::: Have these theoretical extra-terrestiral aliens promoted lone wolf attacks, and have they acknowledged the actions of this person? In other words, your strawman is bunk. [[Special:Contributions/206.190.75.9|206.190.75.9]] ([[User talk:206.190.75.9|talk]]) 23:41, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::: To copy from below: The [[Charleston church shooting]] is currently in the category ''White supremacy in the United States'' despite the perpetrator having had no formal links to white supremacist groups. The motive was determined via consulting his manifesto and circumstantial evidence about which websites he had visited. The article itself features statements that cast doubt over the white supremacist element of the attack -- ''&quot;I don't think the church was his primary target because he told us he was going for the school. But I think he couldn't get into the school because of the security ... so I think he just settled for the church.&quot;'' Mateen's manifesto was transmitted via phone calls and the transcript features numerous mentions of Islamism and ideas frequently expressed by groups that are clearly Islamist. If we're going to cast aspersions over one manifesto, then it would only seem unbiased to call the motive on the other attack suspect, too. In fact, this would require every manifesto to be treated, as you say, like a person &quot;pledging allegiance to aliens&quot; and of no relevance to the motive for the attack. --[[User:Toomanyaccountsargh|Toomanyaccountsargh]] ([[User talk:Toomanyaccountsargh|talk]]) 05:31, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::: If we had a list of &quot;Terrorist attacks by UFO conspiracy theorists&quot;, yeah, we'd include him on that list. It is irrelevant whether or not the guy is a member of ISIS, though; this is about Islamist terrorist attacks, not ISIS terrorist attacks. [[user:Titanium Dragon|&lt;span style=&quot;background-color:{{ trim | silver }}; color:{{ trim | }};&quot;&gt;{{ trim | '''Titanium Dragon''' }}&lt;/span&gt;]] ([[user talk:Titanium Dragon|talk]]) 23:42, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> <br /> I disagree. There is more evidence that 9/11 wasn't an Islamist attack when compared to Orlando. Bin Laden originally stated he didn't do it. He retracted his statements, and CIA and FBI intel makes it undeniable that Bin Laden caused 9/11.<br /> <br /> Meanwhile, The Orlando shooter made his motives clear from day 1. [[User:R00b07|R00b07]] ([[User talk:R00b07|talk]]) 23:54, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> <br /> I also don't care what Breitbart said. A fact is a fact. He pledged allegiance to ISIS. That's like if during the Troubles someone pledged allegiance to the IRA and shot British people. It's clear what the motive is. If Breitbart said 2+2=4 would we change it just to spite Breitbart? [[User:R00b07|R00b07]] ([[User talk:R00b07|talk]]) 00:06, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> :That is the most ridiculous argument I have ever heard (on this page so far). &quot;He said it, therefore it is&quot;, no sir, the motivations are not clear and that's why we're having this discussion. I could pledge allegiance to Black Lives Matter and go on a rampage against the white community, that doesn't necessarily mean that that was my real motive. Maybe I just don't care anymore or am actually a psycho. The point is, you don't know his motivations, we don't know his motivations, we only know what sources are suggesting are his motivations and what he has claimed are his motivations. There's reason to believe that he's covering up his real motivations, and that's why we're discussing this. [[User:Mr rnddude|Mr rnddude]] ([[User talk:Mr rnddude|talk]]) 00:12, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::{{tq|we only know what sources are suggesting are his motivations and what he has claimed are his motivations.}} And that's all we need to know to include, list, and edit articles on subjects for Wikipedia - indeed, that's all we're '''allowed''' to use when doing such. We report NPOV what the reliable sources say, which in this case the shooter himself, the FBI investigating and releasing information and the news organizations consequently writing articles about those findings all qualify as such. Going further is OR and it definitely wouldn't be the first, or last article on Wikipedia that; for reasons of credibility, NPOV, and BLP - isn't allowed to dig deeper into mysterious motivations when we have due weight sources '''not''' reporting on them to any effective degree. [[Special:Contributions/69.114.53.16|69.114.53.16]] ([[User talk:69.114.53.16|talk]]) 00:27, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::You are quite correct, and the predominance of reliable sources do not state unequivocally (the appropriate bar for a list that is without explanation or context) that this was an Islamic terrorist attack. The original research is to place it in this list based on the ambiguous connections that ''have'' been made. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#AAA;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 00:31, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::The reliable sources are still out on the discussion (is he islamist, gay, schizophrenic, etc). The investigation is still going on, when the investigation ends, when we have undeniable/conclusive evidence, we'll make the report. The point being, we are not reporting anything until we have substantiated facts. Reporting nothing fits well within NPOV, reporting something controversial not so much. [[User:Mr rnddude|Mr rnddude]] ([[User talk:Mr rnddude|talk]]) 00:32, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::You're both correct that there is conflict between news services regarding exactly what Mateen's motivations are, and there are just as many that don't state it was Islamic terrorism in their own voice and quote others who also refuse to label it as such - but there's also many places that do (plenty of which are linked around the RFC above). While the news services are still bumbling around this and perhaps need to be taken with a grain of salt - or two - I'd posit that the statements made by Mateen himself and the information and conclusions so far discussed and released by the FBI are perhaps at this moment, until given evidence otherwise, more weighty themselves - and these are sources that unequivocally '''do''' include the attack under Islamic fundamentalism. I did suggest earlier in one of the edit requests that perhaps the best result for now would be to include the Orlando shooting in this list, but also add a strong conflict subsection explaining the currently ongoing nature of the case and the disputation of facts currently presented, focusing on refuting the possible Islamic involvement in such. [[Special:Contributions/69.114.53.16|69.114.53.16]] ([[User talk:69.114.53.16|talk]]) 00:52, 1 July 2016 (UTC) <br /> :::::::::: &quot;and there are just as many that don't state it was Islamic terrorism in their own voice &quot; Can I have a list of those sources? I'm really curious on who states that. [[User:R00b07|R00b07]] ([[User talk:R00b07|talk]]) 02:00, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::::::::::There's several up above (most famously MrX's response near the top) but take heed - I'm not saying they definitively stated it was '''not''' an Islamic attack, but that they didn't state it was, or at the very least offered quotes saying the same and avoiding the issue in their own words entirely. Which, in contrast - to me, anyway - lends more credence and weight to the official statements from the FBI as they have definitively stated a conclusion as far as Mateen's motivations go (and aligning with Mateen's statements) while the news organizations opposed to this are making no claims other than a paraphrased &quot;We can't know for sure!&quot; which is a definitive cloud of nebulous indecision and without any sort of supported substantiated evidence - unlike the FBI. [[Special:Contributions/69.114.53.16|69.114.53.16]] ([[User talk:69.114.53.16|talk]]) 02:25, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> :{{tq|Anyone saying it wasn't an Islamic attack is being intentionally dishonest.}} Right, we're all just ISIL sleeper agents, placed in the West and raised as Westerners to represent jihadism at en-Wikipedia. Or, just maybe, we have a different viewpoint from you as to the proper use of a list that is devoid of explanation or context. I'd suggest you have a read of [[WP:AGF]] and avoid any further such comments. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#AAA;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 00:13, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> :: This is the most ironic comment I have ever seen, as it was assumed that I was in bad faith. Also, do you have a more logical reason why he did what he did?[[User:R00b07|R00b07]] ([[User talk:R00b07|talk]]) 01:20, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::There is a substantial lack of irony in the comment, there is no strawman just a bit of sarcasm. The point being delivered is that we have differing opinions to you, there is controversy surrounding the motives of the attacker and so some of us are opposed to their inclusion in this article. It's quite that simple. [[User:Mr rnddude|Mr rnddude]] ([[User talk:Mr rnddude|talk]]) 01:26, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::Sub comment; A more logical reason? you realize that we're discussing human motives, the epitomy of the illogical (slight hyperbole as it were). I can suggest other reasons (logical or otherwise); his religious beliefs conflicting with his own self (this does not mean a connection with the Daesh), shame for his own sexuality, schizophrenia (mentioned somewhere above, wasn't even aware of it to be honest), delusions and so forth. [[User:Mr rnddude|Mr rnddude]] ([[User talk:Mr rnddude|talk]]) 01:31, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::::::: If that's the case, I honestly and seriously recommend making a List of Schizophreniac attacks, and adding the Orlando shooting to it.[[User:R00b07|R00b07]] ([[User talk:R00b07|talk]]) 01:36, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::::::::For clarity, I'm not saying it is or isn't, only suggesting that it ''could be'', and because it ''could be'', that qualifies the argument that ISIL inspired attack ''might not be'', because it ''might not be'', we shouldn't include it in this article until we can qualify that it ''is'' or ''isn't''. [[User:Mr rnddude|Mr rnddude]] ([[User talk:Mr rnddude|talk]]) 01:40, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::::::::::I'm not stating that ISIL caused the attack. This isn't a list of ISIL attacks. What every major news outlet (CBS, NBC, ABC, and hell before the FBI censored the phone call) reported was that the Orlando Massacre was an Islamic Terror attack. If we can't classify it as an Islamic Terror Attack, what are we going to classify it as instead? Because removing the Massacre and not giving a new place would be not good. [[User:R00b07|R00b07]] ([[User talk:R00b07|talk]]) 01:56, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::::::::Must everything be placed into a nice, simple category? Is that what we're here for, to encourage simple-minded worldviews, sort of like Hollywood movies? I hope not. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#AAA;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 01:49, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::::::::::: Yes, everything should be placed into an appropriate list. If it doesn't fit one list, it should fit into another. I thought the point of Wikipedia was to &quot;collect and develop educational content under a free license or in the public domain, and to disseminate it effectively and globally&quot;. [[User:R00b07|R00b07]] ([[User talk:R00b07|talk]]) 01:59, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::::::::::::Key words; &quot;appropriate list&quot;, this might not be the appropriate list, we might not have a list that is appropriate, we might not need one. [[User:Mr rnddude|Mr rnddude]] ([[User talk:Mr rnddude|talk]]) 02:01, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::::::::::::Fair enough, good point. [[User:R00b07|R00b07]] ([[User talk:R00b07|talk]]) 02:17, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::::::::::::{{tq|Yes, everything should be placed into an appropriate list.}} Strongly disagree, for the reason I stated. But I'm open to seeing the Wikipedia policy or guideline that says that. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#AAA;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 02:04, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> {{outdent}} ((&quot;But I'm open to seeing the Wikipedia policy or guideline that says that.&quot;)) It's not a guideline, it's common sense that if Wikipedia's mission is to &quot;collect and develop educational content&quot; and &quot;to disseminate it effectively and globally&quot;, that having attacks in an organized list makes it easier to collect and share to the public. But I'm open to seeing something instead of an organized list that would better &quot;disseminate it effectively and globally&quot;. [[User:R00b07|R00b07]] ([[User talk:R00b07|talk]]) 02:17, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> :{{User:Cyclopia/Ubx common sense}} &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#AAA;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 02:26, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> :: Regardless if it's common sense or reason, my point remains and you haven't addressed it. [[User:R00b07|R00b07]] ([[User talk:R00b07|talk]]) 02:28, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::Well there's no addressing the logical long-jump from &quot;collect and develop educational content&quot;, and &quot;to disseminate it effectively and globally&quot;, to &quot;include Orlando in a list of Islamic terrorism attacks&quot;. So I won't try to. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#AAA;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 02:31, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::You seem to be missing my point. I NEVER SAID that &quot;collect and develop educational content&quot; and &quot;to disseminate it effectively and globally&quot; means that you must &quot;include Orlando in a list of Islamic terrorism attacks&quot;. I said that &quot;having attacks in an organized list makes it easier to collect and share to the public&quot; and that's what Wikipedia is all about. Adding Orlando to the list of attacks should only be done if there are enough sources, and the sources have been laid out a million times. I can provide links to the sources if you want. [[User:R00b07|R00b07]] ([[User talk:R00b07|talk]]) 02:44, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::::We are beyond circular argument here, so I refer you to my !vote and previous comments for my response. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#AAA;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 03:15, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::::: All I did was respond to your claim of the &quot;logical long-jump&quot; and responded to it. How is that in any way a circular argument? [[User:R00b07|R00b07]] ([[User talk:R00b07|talk]]) 19:41, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::Per [[WP:AGF]], do not accuse others of being intentionally dishonest (your words, no &quot;straw man&quot; there) ''without clear evidence.'' The only reason we're not at [[WP:ANI]] now is that you didn't make the accusation against a specific editor (but that line could be moved if you persist). &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#AAA;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 01:27, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::::Edited my comment per [[WP:AGF]]. Also, I understand that being passive aggressive is allowed. [[User:R00b07|R00b07]] ([[User talk:R00b07|talk]]) 01:32, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::::I don't think your comment about the strawman was the issue being addressed by Mandruss, rather the insinuation that we're all being &quot;intentionally dishonest&quot; because we disagree. [[User:Mr rnddude|Mr rnddude]] ([[User talk:Mr rnddude|talk]]) 01:35, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::::::Edited my comment per [[WP:AGF]]. [[User:R00b07|R00b07]] ([[User talk:R00b07|talk]]) 01:39, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> We do know how to use the outdent template, right? I've applied it here for legibility reasons, by the way. I've also eliminated unnecessary indentations. Tell me if you feel I've made a mistake. &lt;font face=&quot;#&quot; color=&quot;#35b794&quot;&gt;[[User:Dschslava|'''Dsch'''slava]]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;#3558b7&quot;&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contribs/Dschslava|'' Δx '']]&lt;/sup&gt;[[User talk:Dschslava|parlez moi]]&lt;/font&gt; 06:25, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ===Real Talk===<br /> * Obama said that &quot;So whatever the motivations of the killer, whatever influences led him down the path of violence and terror, whatever propaganda he was consuming from ISIL and al Qaeda, this was an act of terrorism but it was also an act of hate.&quot; per [https://www.whitehouse.gov/blog/2016/06/12/president-obama-tragic-shooting-orlando]<br /> *The FBI released a transcript of the attacker's phone call to 911 that included him pledging allegiance to ISIS and identifying himself as an Islamic soldier: [http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2016/06/20/fbi-release-orlando-911-transcripts/86130520/]<br /> * Reuters notes the shooter expressed support for multiple Islamist groups, and the FBI said that he pledged his support to Islamist extremists and referred to him being radicalized: [http://www.reuters.com/article/us-florida-shooting-nightclub-idUSKCN0YY08B]<br /> * Hillary Clinton referred to it as &quot;radical Islamism&quot;: [http://www.politico.com/story/2016/06/hillary-clinton-radical-islam-224255] Donald Trump did as well.<br /> That's the terrorist himself, the president, both of the major presidential candidates, the FBI, and Reuters all referring to him pledging allegience to an Islamist group, being an Islamist, radicalization, radical islamism, it being a terrorist attack, ect. What exactly are people complaining about here? Wikipedia itself classifies ISIS/ISIL/Islamic State as an Islamist group. [[user:Titanium Dragon|&lt;span style=&quot;background-color:{{ trim | silver }}; color:{{ trim | }};&quot;&gt;{{ trim | '''Titanium Dragon''' }}&lt;/span&gt;]] ([[user talk:Titanium Dragon|talk]]) 02:14, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :Thank you. You have created a separate section for your argument, it being obviously more important than the rest. Can the rest of us do that, resulting in over a hundred !vote subsections? &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#AAA;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 02:19, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::: Why do you feel the need to be hostile in order to make your point? Remember to [[WP:AGF]]. [[WP:ANI]] applies to everyone. Maybe he is new and made a new section because he doesn't know any better. Assume Good Faith. [[User:R00b07|R00b07]] ([[User talk:R00b07|talk]]) 02:25, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::::Holy crap, why are people SO ADAMANT on keeping the Orlando shooting off the list? It's like people are trying to avoid coming to terms with reality, and the more evidence and arguments FOR keeping it on the list pop up, the more frustrated and angry they get. Just look at the comment in response to this, it's completely avoiding the point and instead attacks Titanium Dragon for making a separate space. [[User:Sethyre|Sethyre]] ([[User talk:Sethyre|talk]]) 02:30, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::::: (&quot;Holy crap, why are people SO ADAMANT on keeping the Orlando shooting off the list?&quot;) You know why. ;) But yeah, it's sad when people who speak against the stream get replied with sarcastic comments. (Assume Good Faith doesn't work here, since it was already admitted)[[User:R00b07|R00b07]] ([[User talk:R00b07|talk]]) 02:33, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::::{{tq|Holy crap, why are people SO ADAMANT on keeping the Orlando shooting off the list?}} If you actually don't understand the arguments, you haven't read much of them. I understand it's a ton of reading, but it beats endless redundant repetition. And speaking only for myself, I'm neither frustrated nor angry, although I do object to a separate subsection for the argument that could have been made in a !vote. It's the same reasoning as is applied to extensive use of boldfacing or underscoring. If no one else shares that view, fine. I'm capable of deferring to consensus on this as much as anything else. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#AAA;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 02:48, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::::: Let's dissect this one again. &quot;If you actually don't understand the arguments, you haven't read much of them.&quot; I'm assuming you mean well by this comment, but it's really hard to. To me it seems like another insult. [[User:R00b07|R00b07]] ([[User talk:R00b07|talk]]) 02:53, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::::::Given the wall-of-text effect, it's anything but an insult to suggest that someone may not have read much of it. Being a very slow reader, I am myself forced to skip much of that when I arrive at an RfC late, and I wouldn't feel insulted if someone pointed that out to me after I had implied that I don't understand the opposition's arguments. My comments are clearly not in violation of AGF, so I'd ask that you take any further discussion about my tone to my talk page. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#AAA;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 02:59, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> ** When Hillary Clinton, Donald Trump, (I know not reliable sources, just making a point) CNN, NBC, CBS, ABC, and The FBI (Reliable Sources) agree that the motivation was Islamic Terror, that sounds like a consensus to me. However, somehow the argument manages to devolve into talks about schizophrenia and self hatred. [[User:R00b07|R00b07]] ([[User talk:R00b07|talk]]) 02:25, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> ***I personally have no stakes in this, I only care that we wait until either we have unequivocal evidence of such (which seems to be well documented above) or that we come to a consensus. I mentioned the alternate arguments because I'd noted them in some places. [[User:Mr rnddude|Mr rnddude]] ([[User talk:Mr rnddude|talk]]) 02:37, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> ****The thing that is confusing me is that we have a ton of reliable sources, and people are talking about extraterrestrials and stuff. Wikipedia relies on reliable sources and [[WP:COMMONNAME]] to name/identify stuff. Given that there seem to be an overwhelming number of RSes aligned on this point, I'm not sure what the argument is really about at this point. What else could we possibly be looking for? When the terrorist, a terrorist group, the US government, a variety of news sources, and competing presidential candidates all agree on something, it seems like that's about as much agreement as you can reasonably hope for. [[user:Titanium Dragon|&lt;span style=&quot;background-color:{{ trim | silver }}; color:{{ trim | }};&quot;&gt;{{ trim | '''Titanium Dragon''' }}&lt;/span&gt;]] ([[user talk:Titanium Dragon|talk]]) 04:23, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> *****What you're essentially saying (correct me if I'm wrong) is that the arguments for inclusion are clearly stronger than those against. If you're right, any competent closer will see that and close in your favor. A new separate subsection doesn't get us any closer to that end, and only serves to give undue &lt;u&gt;emphasis&lt;/u&gt; to your argument—and create yet more redundancy for the closer to slog through. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#AAA;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 04:37, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> ******Yelling at people to shut up does not actually reduce the volume in the room, you know. [[Special:Contributions/2601:602:9802:99B2:F1DB:D95B:C7B2:2EE0|2601:602:9802:99B2:F1DB:D95B:C7B2:2EE0]] ([[User talk:2601:602:9802:99B2:F1DB:D95B:C7B2:2EE0|talk]]) 05:04, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> *******{{Ping|Mandruss}} I was hoping for an explanation of why we should disregard all of those sources and not list it as an Islamist terrorist attack. Wikipedia isn't about voting, its about consensus, and I'm trying to understand what it is that you disagree with here. MrX's original objection was simply that there weren't sources which said that this was an Islamist terrorist attack, but it is clear that there are tons of such sources, so I was wondering if there was some other objection. If there isn't, there's not much of a point to any of this. The only other argument I'm seeing is people speculating that he was gay, but we don't know that he was, and in any case, there's nothing that prevents an Islamist from being gay. There have been many instances of conservatives who were very strongly opposed to homosexuality due to their religious beliefs themselves being homosexual, so it isn't really a counter-argument - doubly so given that the shooter told the police themselves that they were acting on behalf of ISIS (whether ISIS knew about it or not). [[user:Titanium Dragon|&lt;span style=&quot;background-color:{{ trim | silver }}; color:{{ trim | }};&quot;&gt;{{ trim | '''Titanium Dragon''' }}&lt;/span&gt;]] ([[user talk:Titanium Dragon|talk]]) 05:35, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> ********It's a wonder that there's a RfC at all. There's far more attacks that have vauger connections to Islam than the Orlando shooting, so why is THIS PARTICULAR event so contested here on Wikipedia? And what does it say about Wikipedia in general if things like this continue to happen despite clear evidence that it isn't necessary? [[User:Sethyre|Sethyre]] ([[User talk:Sethyre|talk]]) 05:41, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> *********I don't believe that this particularly says anything about Wikipedia in general, beyond possibly a few tendentious editors - I mean, let's be clear here, the series of events were extremely muddled and conflicting information tossed all about originally and the very points against the Orlando's inclusion as an Islamic attack were well applied at that point. It is however fair (and safe) at this point to say this has changed. All the more recent information (news articles/FBI/talking heads) have given full and due weight to the information that yes; indeed - this attack was a demonstration of Islamic fundamentalism. The editors who have up to this point protected this article (and it's inclusion to this list) in the meantime have done well by doing so, and deserve every chance to review all the new articles and sources (posted here and any in an edit request below) and see the well given preponderance of statements towards real, supported information - and the dismissal of several fallacies formerly involved too. Now, if people choose to keep ignoring all of this then perhaps it would be time to wail about the stubborn mules and the Wikipedia stables - but the time hasn't precisely come yet, and always assume in good faith that people can come around. [[Special:Contributions/69.114.53.16|69.114.53.16]] ([[User talk:69.114.53.16|talk]]) 06:06, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> ********The arguments against inclusion are more than &quot;there weren't sources which said that this was an Islamist terrorist attack&quot;. They have been stated multiple times by multiple editors with multiple ways of saying them, and often with others apparently failing to hear them or hearing them inaccurately and/or simplistically. I'm sorry but it seems both impractical and a waste of time to try to fully articulate them here, again. They are there for you to read, or maybe someone else would care to take a stab at a full and complete re-statement of them. Update: On second thought, I doubt any one editor could fully and accurately summarize &lt;u&gt;all&lt;/u&gt; of the nay arguments. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#AAA;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 05:53, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> * The [[2015 Leytonstone tube station attack]] was another of those attacks that people raced to include in this list, for many of the same reasons people want to include Orlando. The Leytonstone attacker shouted Islamic phrases, so it '''''must''''' have been an Islamist attack, right?! Oh, no, wait now... Nope. Mentally ill man. We'll never know for definite now whether Mateen was mentally ill or not, but being the U.S., he had access to much more significant weaponry. Certainly, from people who ''knew'' him (as opposed to FBI examinations of his phone), he apparently appeared to be [[Omar_Mateen#Personal_life|mentally unstable]] and his sexual orientation was [[Omar_Mateen#Sexual_orientation|open to question]]. Sorry if that doesn't fit in to some black and white Breitbart classification. [[User:Bastun|&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Verdana, sans-serif&quot;&gt;Bastun&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Bastun|Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!]]&lt;/sup&gt; 16:45, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> :But mental illness doesn't preclude an attack for any type of classification. Neither does sexual orientation. Is the list called &quot;List of attacks by Heterosexual, Mentally Stable Islamists&quot;? No. I'm not a doctor, but I would guess that Omar Mateen, Dylan Roof, the Leytonstone attacker, and Ted Kaczynski were all mentally unstable. But these attackers all chose to intentionally identify with a polical ideology and associate their attacks with some ideology. If Omar Mateen supports ISIS because ISIS gives him publicity, which he craves for psychopathological reasons (this is plausible, but also very speculative), that does not make him less of a supporter of ISIS. Consider a hypothetical fighter who has joined ISIS to gain money or slaves as spoils of war but has little interest in religion. Would that man not be a &quot;real&quot; supporter of ISIS? I think many of you who support removing this attack from the list are talking past us. The issue isn't that Mateen might have been gay, or might have been crazy, and that we Breitbart drones fail to recognize that. The issue is that we cannot understand how any of those complicating factor make Mateen ''not'' an ISIS supporter. Should we have a separate list for terrorist attacks made by ISIS supporters, that support the religous and political aims of ISIS (killing of gays and Americans), yet potentially had other motives? Well guess what- that would include every single attack on this list, including those ''actually directed by ISIS and Al-Qida''. Should we remove 9/11 from this list? Maybe one or more of the hijackers went through a rough divorce, flunked out of school, had a brain tumor, etc, etc, etc. Who cares? This is honestly getting absurd. [[User:Brianbleakley|Brianbleakley]] ([[User talk:Brianbleakley|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Brianbleakley|contrib]])) 17:45, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Recent evidence from the FBI about Orlando ==<br /> <br /> <br /> From yesterday's article titled &quot;FBI investigators say they have found no evidence that Orlando shooter had gay lovers&quot; found here: http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-orlando-gay-fbi-20160623-snap-story.html<br /> <br /> &quot;He claimed the shooting was carried out in allegiance to the militant group Islamic State, as a message to halt U.S. bombing in Iraq and Syria. Several Pulse regulars have come forward in the days since the shooting, claiming to have seen Mateen at the club or to have been contacted by him on the gay dating apps Grindr, Jack’d and Adam4Adam. On Tuesday, Univision aired a report in which “Miguel,” a man wearing a disguise to conceal his identity, alleged he had sex with Mateen after meeting him on the gay dating app, Grindr. He said Mateen &gt;had sex with other men too, including a threesome with a Puerto Rican who allegedly told Mateen, after having had unprotected sex with him, that he was HIV positive. But investigators do not consider the man’s account credible, according to one senior law enforcement official with access to the investigation.&quot;<br /> <br /> In light of this information, it seems that indeed Orlando was motivated by extremism. &lt;small class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—&amp;nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/73.233.156.49|73.233.156.49]] ([[User talk:73.233.156.49|talk]]) 14:06, 24 June 2016 (UTC)&lt;/small&gt;&lt;!-- Template:Unsigned IP --&gt; &lt;!--Autosigned by SineBot--&gt;<br /> :No, that would be a [[false binary]]. Let's let the FBI finish doing their job.- [[user: MrX|Mr]][[user talk:MrX|X]] 21:56, 24 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::Did you miss the first sentence of the quote about Mateen? &quot;He claimed the shooting was carried out in allegiance to the militant group Islamic State, as a message to halt U.S. bombing in Iraq and Syria.&quot; This wasn't a &quot;process of elimination&quot; conclusion that it was extremism, this is actually what Mateen's affirmative motivation was as reported by the investigators. &lt;small class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—&amp;nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/73.233.156.49|73.233.156.49]] ([[User talk:73.233.156.49|talk]]) 14:44, 25 June 2016 (UTC)&lt;/small&gt;&lt;!-- Template:Unsigned IP --&gt; &lt;!--Autosigned by SineBot--&gt;<br /> :::Maybe I misunderstood how you were reaching your conclusion, in which case mentioning the gay angle is not really relevant. Whether Mateen's own pledge of allegiance to ISIL is sufficient for characterizing the shooting as an Islamist terrorist attack is at the center of the editorial dispute (above). Obviously opinions vary. - [[user: MrX|Mr]][[user talk:MrX|X]] 18:11, 25 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::Mateen's only claim is Islamist extremism. ISIL or Hezbollah or Chechen or Taliban matters not in a self-radicalized Islamist terror attack against Western policy. It is sufficient that he attacked unarmed persons because he disagreed with the policy that killed Muslims. That is not an uncommon motive and the flavor of Islam is not relevant. We have a lot more evidence of his Islamist terror motive than any anti-LGBT motive. --[[User:DHeyward|DHeyward]] ([[User talk:DHeyward|talk]]) 00:09, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> Why is the self gay hatred narrative still being peddled around, when it is significantly less plausible than any other factor being brought up? [[User:R00b07|R00b07]] ([[User talk:R00b07|talk]]) 00:44, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> A muslim man shot up a nightclub under the pretense of Radical Islam. ISIL later took credit for it. Who cares if it was carried out on ISIL's instruction or not? ISIL has sent messages to Extremists in the US and other western countries to continue carrying out LONE WOLF attacks. ISIL can't personally endorse each and every attempted bombing. They only take credit once the deed is done. The Orlando shooting was one of these encouraged lone wolf attacks, and while ISIL didn't plan it, they certainly took credit. Stop this PC nonsense. You are disrespecting the deceased victims names if you call this anything other than what it really is: Islamic Terror. &lt;!-- Template:Unsigned --&gt;&lt;small&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—&amp;nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Battlefront228|Battlefront228]] ([[User talk:Battlefront228|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Battlefront228|contribs]]) 19:34, 1 July 2016 (UTC)&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/small&gt; &lt;!--Autosigned by SineBot--&gt;<br /> <br /> == Semi-protected edit request on 26 June 2016 ==<br /> <br /> {{edit semi-protected|List of Islamist terrorist attacks|answered=yes}}<br /> &lt;!-- State UNAMBIGUOUSLY your suggested changes. Other editors need to know what to add or remove. Blank edit requests will be declined. --&gt;<br /> <br /> <br /> To be added near the bottom of the 2016 list of terrorist attacks in chronological order...<br /> <br /> *Florida June 12, 2016 - Omar Mateen, pledging allegiance to ISIS, attacked the Pulse gay nightclub in Orlando, Fl, killing 49 and wounding 53 others before he himself was killed in a shootout with police. url=http://www.cnn.com/2016/06/12/us/orlando-nightclub-shooting/<br /> <br /> <br /> &lt;!-- Write your request ABOVE this line and do not remove the tildes below. --&gt;<br /> [[User:Ghostvet|Ghostvet]] ([[User talk:Ghostvet|talk]]) 22:02, 26 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :{{not done}} - See [[#RfC: Should the Orlando shooting be included in this list?]]. - [[user: MrX|Mr]][[user talk:MrX|X]] 22:06, 26 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Semi-protected edit request on 29 June 2016 ==<br /> <br /> {{edit semi-protected|List of Islamist terrorist attacks|answered=yes}}<br /> &lt;!-- State UNAMBIGUOUSLY your suggested changes. Other editors need to know what to add or remove. Blank edit requests will be declined. --&gt;<br /> <br /> <br /> I noticed that the Orlando attack is missing from the list of Islamic terrorist attacks. I know there have been a lot of Internet memes trying to claim that it wasn’t Islamic, but homophobia for example. I submit for your consideration that it can be both.<br /> First, there are multiple sources that consider the Orlando attacks to be both Islamic and Terrorist. It actually parallels the Fort Hood and San Bernardino attacks, where a self-radicalized attacker was inspired by radical Islamic ideology he learned on the Internet. He then selected a target he knew and attacked.<br /> As far as the definition for what a “reliable source” is, how do you handle that with things that are so political? The New York Times editorial page is certainly not an unbiased source. If their editorial page is disqualified, would you disqualify the editorial page of the Wall Street Journal as well? The AP Stylebook is influenced by politics and you will see certain English-language sources avoid words, whether because the stylebook states a preferred way or their own individual bias. (For more on this, see the AP Stylebook regarding the change from using the term illegal immigrants to undocumented workers to describe those who are unlawfully present in the U.S.<br /> Cite: &lt;ref&gt;https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/wp/2013/04/02/ap-drops-illegal-immigrant-from-stylebook/&lt;/ref&gt;<br /> <br /> I would argue that your definition should not be solely whether a single news article includes the words “terrorism” and “Islamic.” Rather, you should take into consideration whether or not the attacker claimed his motivation was Islam and whether a known Islamic terrorist organization congratulates, endorses, or claims responsibility for an attack. (For example, the Irish Republican Army has not claimed credit for any of the attacks on the Islamic terror attack list, even though the organization blew up some buildings and engaged in terrorist activity in the past.)<br /> Orlando Attack Sources:<br /> &lt;ref&gt;http://fpif.org/orlando-future-terrorism/&lt;/ref&gt;<br /> &lt;ref&gt;https://www.stratfor.com/geopolitical-diary/searching-right-answer-islamic-state&lt;/ref&gt;<br /> &lt;ref&gt;http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2016/06/12/orlando-nightclub-shooting/&lt;/ref&gt;<br /> <br /> For those that argue the Orlando attack was just a hate crime because of homophobia, consider that homosexual behavior still qualifies for the death penalty in many Islamic countries, and in Daesh-controlled areas. Islam itself recommends violence against homosexuals:<br /> &lt;ref&gt;https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2016/06/13/here-are-the-10-countries-where-homosexuality-may-be-punished-by-death-2/&lt;/ref&gt;<br /> &lt;ref&gt;http://www.latimes.com/world/middleeast/la-fg-islamic-state-anti-gay-violence-20160613-snap-story.html&lt;/ref&gt;<br /> &lt;ref&gt;http://www.cbsnews.com/news/isis-orlando-shooting-gays-execution-torture-ramadan/&lt;/ref&gt;<br /> &lt;ref&gt;http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/nation/imams-line-up-to-condemn-homosexuality/news-story/b1df7829507ae0a60875a5577bd21a43&lt;/ref&gt;<br /> <br /> Here are some sources for terrorist attacks not currently listed:<br /> &lt;ref&gt;http://www.aol.com/article/2016/06/25/somali-islamist-militants-attack-hotel-in-mogadishu/21403805/&lt;/ref&gt;<br /> &lt;ref&gt;http://www.haaretz.com/world-news/1.603331&lt;/ref&gt;<br /> &lt;ref&gt;http://www.haaretz.com/world-news/1.599021&lt;/ref&gt;<br /> &lt;ref&gt;http://www.capitalfm.co.ke/news/2014/06/48-dead-so-far-in-mpeketoni-terror-attack/&lt;/ref&gt;<br /> &lt;ref&gt;http://www.reuters.com/article/us-yemen-security-idUSKCN0ZD292&lt;/ref&gt;<br /> &lt;ref&gt;http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/syria-isis-suicide-bomb-shrine-june11-1.3630987&lt;/ref&gt;<br /> &lt;ref&gt;http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3664267/Lebanese-Christian-women-armed-machine-guns-patrol-border-village-ISIS-suspects-launch-suicide-attacks-prompting-authorities-round-103-illegal-Syrian-migrants.html&lt;/ref&gt;<br /> {{reflist-talk}}<br /> <br /> &lt;!-- Write your request ABOVE this line and do not remove the tildes below. --&gt;<br /> [[User:DeanSoCal|DeanSoCal]] ([[User talk:DeanSoCal|talk]]) 05:45, 29 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :[[File:Red information icon with gradient background.svg|20px|link=]] '''Not done:'''&lt;!-- Template:ESp --&gt; On going rfc on this very talk page regarding this issue [[User:EvergreenFir|'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:#8b00ff;&quot;&gt;Eve&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#6528c2;&quot;&gt;rgr&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#3f5184;&quot;&gt;een&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#197947;&quot;&gt;Fir&lt;/span&gt;''']] [[User talk:EvergreenFir|(talk)]] &lt;small&gt;Please &amp;#123;&amp;#123;[[Template:re|re]]&amp;#125;&amp;#125;&lt;/small&gt; 06:11, 29 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::https://www.fbi.gov/tampa/press-releases/2016/investigative-update-regarding-pulse-nightclub-shooting Done, comment given, from the shooter himself. From the FBI press release, have fun saying this guy wasn't doing it as an islamic terror attack after reading it. anyone waiting for an RFC after reading that is pushing an agenda, period. [[Special:Contributions/65.29.77.61|65.29.77.61]] ([[User talk:65.29.77.61|talk]]) 18:01, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::Do not pretend to know the motives of other editors. [[User:EvergreenFir|'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:#8b00ff;&quot;&gt;Eve&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#6528c2;&quot;&gt;rgr&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#3f5184;&quot;&gt;een&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#197947;&quot;&gt;Fir&lt;/span&gt;''']] [[User talk:EvergreenFir|(talk)]] &lt;small&gt;Please &amp;#123;&amp;#123;[[Template:re|re]]&amp;#125;&amp;#125;&lt;/small&gt; 19:03, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::::I would agree with your statement on the IP above not pretending to know the motivations of other editors, but I also find it amazingly hypocritical how these same other editors are pretending to know about the motivations of the Orlando shooter, regardless of the all the facts and statements from the FBI and reporting from RS that disagree with their assumption. I don't normally comment on Wikipedia so please correct me if I'm wrong; but every single argument in that RfC purporting that Orlando was NOT a terrorist attack is based entirely on OR and unsubstantiated rumors directly contradicted by the primary authorities and recent RS that have reported on the matter. [[Special:Contributions/69.114.53.16|69.114.53.16]] ([[User talk:69.114.53.16|talk]]) 19:26, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::: I'm not pretending, it's pretty obvious. Every single fact tells them they're wrong. They have transcripts, they have recordings in the shooters own voice, yet somehow they just buried their head in the sand? Malice or ignorance, pick one. It can't be ignorance because I know they can left click a link. [[Special:Contributions/65.29.77.61|65.29.77.61]] ([[User talk:65.29.77.61|talk]]) 03:17, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == June 28 Ataturk airport bombing ==<br /> <br /> So, should we add this bombing to the list right now, as it's current, or should we wait until we get full details? Please answer. [[User:Awesomegaming|Awesomegaming]] ([[User talk:Awesomegaming|talk]]) 23:47, 29 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :Do you have a source saying that it was an Islamist terrorist attack?- [[user: MrX|Mr]][[user talk:MrX|X]] 00:25, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :No. We must wait for full details. [[User:Brianbleakley|Brianbleakley]] ([[User talk:Brianbleakley|talk]]) 17:24, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :We need to be politically correct as much as possible so we shouldn't include it. Even if the rest of the world is reporting it to be such. [[User:Sir Joseph|Sir Joseph]] &lt;sup&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;Green&quot;&gt;[[User_talk:Sir Joseph|(talk)]]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/sup&gt; 17:32, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :Would [http://www.cnn.com/2016/06/30/europe/turkey-istanbul-ataturk-airport-attack/ this article] be considered a valid source? The article itself has only anonymous sources, and is thus hearsay. On the other hand, it is hearsay from a 'reputable' source. It is quite likely that the link to ISIS is real- I'm not disputing that. I'm just curious about the standard of sourcing required for this sort of thing. [[User:Brianbleakley|Brianbleakley]] ([[User talk:Brianbleakley|talk]]) 17:54, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :Actually, there does seem to be an [http://www.cbsnews.com/news/istanbul-airport-attack-signs-point-to-isis/ official statement] &quot;The findings of our security forces point at the Daesh organization as the perpetrators of this terror attack,&quot; Yildirim said, using the Arabic name for ISIS. &quot;Even though the indications suggest Daesh, our investigations are continuing.&quot; [[User:Brianbleakley|Brianbleakley]] ([[User talk:Brianbleakley|talk]]) 18:01, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> <br /> Anyone who wants to point to any other motivation on the Ataturk bombings, other than Islamic Terror, feel free. [[User:R00b07|R00b07]] ([[User talk:R00b07|talk]]) 23:59, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Disruptive editing in the middle of an RfC ==<br /> <br /> Twice, editors have restored the Orlando shooting to this list, in spite of consensus to do so in the '''[[#RfC: Should the Orlando shooting be included in this list?|ongong RfC]]'''. Not only is this [[WP:DISRUPT|disruptive]], it's out of process as detailed at [[WP:RFC#Suggestions for responding]], which says<br /> :&quot;Edits to content under RfC discussion may be particularly controversial. Avoid making edits that others may view as unhelpful. Editing after others have raised objections may be viewed as disruptive editing or edit warring. Be patient; make your improvements in accord with consensus after the RFC is resolved.&quot;<br /> The RfC needs to be allowed to run its course, and consensus weighed by an admin, before this material is reintroduced.- [[user: MrX|Mr]][[user talk:MrX|X]] 15:33, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :Did you remove the attack from the list? If so, it should be reinstated immediately and the RfC should be completed to decide if it should be removed. Not the other way around. Why didn't you start a talk section about it instead of removing it immediately? [[User:Iksnyrk|Iksnyrk]] ([[User talk:Iksnyrk|talk]]) 20:11, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :There is no controversy. It was a self proclaimed islamic terrorist event. It's actually one of the very that can be completely verified as knowing what the motivation was.&lt;!-- Template:Unsigned --&gt;&lt;small&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—&amp;nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:97.91.188.153|97.91.188.153]] ([[User talk:97.91.188.153|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/97.91.188.153|contribs]]) 17:43, 30 June 2016 (UTC)&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/small&gt;<br /> ::The alternative explanation is that Omar Mateen was a crank/fantasist/mentally ill who proclaimed an Islamic motive after reading a few websites. As others have pointed out, if Mateen had claimed to be Napoleon, the Orlando shooting would not be described as the work of the French Empire. Motive is for the investigators to determine. It's also worrying that this is being hyped up on Breitbart, which is disrupting the normal editing process.--'''''[[User:ianmacm|&lt;span style=&quot;background:#88b;color:#cff;font-variant:small-caps&quot;&gt;♦Ian&lt;span style=&quot;background:#99c&quot;&gt;Ma&lt;span style=&quot;background:#aad&quot;&gt;c&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;M♦&lt;/span&gt;]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:ianmacm|(talk to me)]]&lt;/sup&gt;''''' 17:57, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::But, he didn't, Blanch. Stop propagandizing. &lt;!-- Template:Unsigned IP --&gt;&lt;small class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—&amp;nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/206.190.75.9|206.190.75.9]] ([[User talk:206.190.75.9|talk]]) 19:07, 30 June 2016 (UTC)&lt;/small&gt; &lt;!--Autosigned by SineBot--&gt;<br /> :::Well, if he claimed he were Napoleon and then France took credit for it we'd probably describe it as the work of France, don't you think? ISIL, an Islamic terrorist group, claims responsibility, do they not?--[[Special:Contributions/2607:EA00:107:2401:A13E:8174:2794:B667|2607:EA00:107:2401:A13E:8174:2794:B667]] ([[User talk:2607:EA00:107:2401:A13E:8174:2794:B667|talk]]) 20:23, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::The [[Charleston church shooting]] is currently in the category ''White supremacy in the United States'' despite the perpetrator having had no formal links to white supremacist groups. The motive was determined via consulting his manifesto and circumstantial evidence about which websites he had visited. The article itself features statements that cast doubt over the white supremacist element of the attack -- ''&quot;I don't think the church was his primary target because he told us he was going for the school. But I think he couldn't get into the school because of the security ... so I think he just settled for the church.&quot;'' Mateen's manifesto was transmitted via phone calls and the transcript features numerous mentions of Islamism and ideas frequently expressed by groups that are clearly Islamist. If we're going to cast aspersions over one manifesto, then it would only seem unbiased to call the motive on the other attack suspect, too. In fact, this would require every manifesto to be treated, as you say, like a product of mental illness of no relevance to the motive for the attack. --[[User:Toomanyaccountsargh|Toomanyaccountsargh]] ([[User talk:Toomanyaccountsargh|talk]]) 19:11, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::We are NOT going to have another content discussion about this here, pointlessly redundant with the open RfC. This is a thread about process, which is independent of any content questions. The listing is disputed and, as such, should stay out until consensus is reached to include it. Per [[WP:ONUS]], ''&quot;The onus to achieve consensus for inclusion is on those seeking to include disputed content.&quot;'' &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#AAA;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 21:18, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Semi-protected edit request on 30 June 2016 ==<br /> <br /> {{edit semi-protected|List of Islamist terrorist attacks|answered=yes}}<br /> &lt;!-- State UNAMBIGUOUSLY your suggested changes. Other editors need to know what to add or remove. Blank edit requests will be declined. --&gt;<br /> <br /> I would like to rightfully restore the Orlando and Turkey terror attacks to the list as they have been clearly demarcated as acts of Islamic terror.<br /> <br /> &lt;!-- Write your request ABOVE this line and do not remove the tildes below. --&gt;<br /> [[User:Jrcoyne99|Jrcoyne99]] ([[User talk:Jrcoyne99|talk]]) 19:39, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :You may wish to participate in the above RfC. [[User:BethNaught|BethNaught]] ([[User talk:BethNaught|talk]]) 19:41, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> <br /> wankers arguing semantics. it's a duck. call it a duck. I mean that literally. Add the Orlando Nightclub attack to the page &quot;list of ducks&quot;<br /> <br /> :{{not done}} - You may wish to participate in the above RfC. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#AAA;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 21:24, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Protected edit request on 30 June 2016 a ==<br /> <br /> {{edit fully-protected|List of Islamist terrorist attacks|answered=yes}}<br /> &lt;!-- State UNAMBIGUOUSLY your suggested changes. Other editors need to know what to add or remove. Blank edit requests will be declined. --&gt;<br /> Where is the list of Orlando and other attacks against US ? <br /> <br /> &lt;!-- Write your request ABOVE this line and do not remove the tildes below. --&gt;<br /> [[Special:Contributions/92.26.52.164|92.26.52.164]] ([[User talk:92.26.52.164|talk]]) 09:26, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :Please refer to [[Wikipedia:Edit requests]] for how to submit an edit request (they are not for asking a question). As for Orlando, there is an open RfC about that above. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#AAA;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 09:31, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Protected edit request on 30 June 2016 b==<br /> <br /> {{edit fully-protected|List of Islamist terrorist attacks|answered=yes}}<br /> &lt;!-- State UNAMBIGUOUSLY your suggested changes. Other editors need to know what to add or remove. Blank edit requests will be declined. --&gt;<br /> <br /> Two recent attacks appear to be missing:<br /> <br /> 12 June 2016 Orlando Nightclub Shooting.<br /> <br /> 28 June 2016 Istanbul Airport Attack.<br /> <br /> I'm happy to generate summary lines similar to others in the attack list. Thanks!<br /> <br /> &lt;!-- Write your request ABOVE this line and do not remove the tildes below. --&gt;<br /> [[User:Snowman1776|Snowman1776]] ([[User talk:Snowman1776|talk]]) 16:50, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> :{{Not done}} - Please read the rest of this page.- [[user: MrX|Mr]][[user talk:MrX|X]] 16:54, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> :: Too involved. Don't close requests. --[[User:DHeyward|DHeyward]] ([[User talk:DHeyward|talk]]) 17:22, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::The more I see of this page, the more it seems that the &quot;List of... &quot; format is a disaster waiting to happen. The motive for some of the attacks is not as easy to pin down as the mainstream media or armchair experts on Islamic radicalism seem to think. As I've also said, there is a risk of a [[false dilemma]] when an attack may have had a range of different motives.--'''''[[User:ianmacm|&lt;span style=&quot;background:#88b;color:#cff;font-variant:small-caps&quot;&gt;♦Ian&lt;span style=&quot;background:#99c&quot;&gt;Ma&lt;span style=&quot;background:#aad&quot;&gt;c&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;M♦&lt;/span&gt;]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:ianmacm|(talk to me)]]&lt;/sup&gt;''''' 17:27, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::: The page is fully protected due to a content dispute largely brought on by a breitbart article. The request is asking to continue that dispute. There's no reason an involved person cannot answer. Heck, no sources were provided either. [[User:EvergreenFir|'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:#8b00ff;&quot;&gt;Eve&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#6528c2;&quot;&gt;rgr&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#3f5184;&quot;&gt;een&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#197947;&quot;&gt;Fir&lt;/span&gt;''']] [[User talk:EvergreenFir|(talk)]] &lt;small&gt;Please &amp;#123;&amp;#123;[[Template:re|re]]&amp;#125;&amp;#125;&lt;/small&gt; 17:38, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::: {{re|ianmacm}} Perhaps but another problem is the difference between &quot;the&quot; motive and &quot;a&quot; motive. No one seems to doubt that this was violence against LGBT people but there is much less evidence of that connection. Nevertheless, both islamic terrorism and anti-LGBT can be a motive and we are not limited to a single list. Islamic terrorists execute gay people routinely so the lists can intersect. Why ignore all the sources that say it was Islamist terrorism? The Boston bombing was at least as complicated. --[[User:DHeyward|DHeyward]] ([[User talk:DHeyward|talk]]) 17:47, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::::The regular Wikipedia editors are agreed that mass shootings, bombings etc may have various motives. This page has degenerated into a mess because it sees things in black and white rather than shades of grey. As for the [[2016 Istanbul Atatürk Airport attack]], the Turkish government has blamed ISIL but there is as ever scope for debate.--'''''[[User:ianmacm|&lt;span style=&quot;background:#88b;color:#cff;font-variant:small-caps&quot;&gt;♦Ian&lt;span style=&quot;background:#99c&quot;&gt;Ma&lt;span style=&quot;background:#aad&quot;&gt;c&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;M♦&lt;/span&gt;]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:ianmacm|(talk to me)]]&lt;/sup&gt;''''' 17:58, 1 July 2016 (UTC) <br /> :::Anyone can close requests. Your demand is declined.- [[user: MrX|Mr]][[user talk:MrX|X]] 17:51, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> :Ongoing RFC above. Please join there. [[User:EvergreenFir|'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:#8b00ff;&quot;&gt;Eve&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#6528c2;&quot;&gt;rgr&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#3f5184;&quot;&gt;een&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#197947;&quot;&gt;Fir&lt;/span&gt;''']] [[User talk:EvergreenFir|(talk)]] &lt;small&gt;Please &amp;#123;&amp;#123;[[Template:re|re]]&amp;#125;&amp;#125;&lt;/small&gt; 17:35, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::The RfC only concerns Orlando. Can we get some views on Turkey? -- [[user:zzuuzz|zzuuzz]] &lt;sup&gt;[[user_talk:zzuuzz|(talk)]]&lt;/sup&gt; 17:40, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::: Currently discussed at [[#June 28 Ataturk airport bombing]] [[User:EvergreenFir|'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:#8b00ff;&quot;&gt;Eve&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#6528c2;&quot;&gt;rgr&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#3f5184;&quot;&gt;een&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#197947;&quot;&gt;Fir&lt;/span&gt;''']] [[User talk:EvergreenFir|(talk)]] &lt;small&gt;Please &amp;#123;&amp;#123;[[Template:re|re]]&amp;#125;&amp;#125;&lt;/small&gt; 17:45, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::I'm pretty much through with the RfC about Orlando because it has been [[WP:MEAT|meatpuppeted]] by Breitbart. The main concern now is whether this page has a viable format due to the difficulty in extracting a [[Boolean algebra|Boolean]] yes/no answer for the motive.--'''''[[User:ianmacm|&lt;span style=&quot;background:#88b;color:#cff;font-variant:small-caps&quot;&gt;♦Ian&lt;span style=&quot;background:#99c&quot;&gt;Ma&lt;span style=&quot;background:#aad&quot;&gt;c&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;M♦&lt;/span&gt;]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:ianmacm|(talk to me)]]&lt;/sup&gt;''''' 17:42, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::I disagree. I think the RFC is still valid. It doesn't matter how people noticed this issue. The RFC header itself advises that if you came here as a result of a message off wiki, please adhere to our guidelines. It goes on to say &quot;However, you are invited to participate and your opinion is welcome.&quot; If the users you claim were brought here as a result of reading a Breitbart article, then their opinions are as valid as yours, provided they adhere to our guidelines. If you believe the result should not be valid, please seek consensus to change the RFC process. That it is not going the way you wish is not a reason to try to derail the result. [[User:Mr Ernie|Mr Ernie]] ([[User talk:Mr Ernie|talk]]) 19:12, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == WikiProject Conservatism? ==<br /> <br /> Obviously this page should belong to WikiProject Islam and WikiProject Terrorism, but I think that including it in WikiProject Conservatism could be considered a form of canvassing. I'm firmly on the Breitbart side of the Orlando Nightclub Shooting debacle, but I think in general the association of this list with a political philosophy is a negative thing. There is no fundamental philosophical connection between political conservatism and Islam, political conservatives simply tend to have similar views on the issue. I have no problem with political conservatives who want to ensure that Islamic/ist terrorism is handled honestly on Wikipedia joining WP Islam or WP Terrorism, in fact that would be an excellent idea. But this list is no more related to conservatism than liberalism, and drawing a host of ideological people to this talk page to battle one another is not a good thing. [[User:Brianbleakley|Brianbleakley]] ([[User talk:Brianbleakley|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Brianbleakley|contribs]]) 19:35, 1 July 2016 (UTC)</div> Battlefront228 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:Battlefront228&diff=727872328 User:Battlefront228 2016-07-01T19:41:45Z <p>Battlefront228: ←Created page with 'Hi this is page'</p> <hr /> <div>Hi this is page</div> Battlefront228 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:List_of_Islamist_terrorist_attacks&diff=727872140 Talk:List of Islamist terrorist attacks 2016-07-01T19:40:11Z <p>Battlefront228: /* Survey */</p> <hr /> <div>{{Old AfD multi| date = 3 April 2014 (UTC) | result = '''keep''' | page = List of Islamic terrorist attacks }} <br /> {{WikiProjectBannerShell|1=<br /> {{WikiProject Terrorism|class=List|importance=Top}}<br /> {{WikiProject Islam|Islam and Controversy=yes|class=List|importance=High}}<br /> {{WikiProject Politics|class=List|importance=High}}<br /> {{WikiProject Conservatism|class=List|importance=Mid}}<br /> }}<br /> {{press | author=Lucas, Nolan|date=June 30, 2016|url=http://www.breitbart.com/tech/2016/06/30/wikipedia-removes-orlando-shooting-islamist-terror-attack-list/?utm_source=facebook&amp;utm_medium=social |title=Wikipedia Removes Orlando Shooting From ‘Islamist Terror Attack’ List|org=''[[Breitbart]]''}}<br /> {{User:MiszaBot/config<br /> |archiveheader = {{talk archive navigation}}<br /> |maxarchivesize = 100K<br /> |counter = 3<br /> |minthreadsleft = 2<br /> |minthreadstoarchive = 1<br /> |algo = old(90d)<br /> |archive = Talk:List of Islamist terrorist attacks/Archive %(counter)d<br /> }}<br /> {{User:HBC Archive Indexerbot/OptIn |target=/Archive index |mask=/Archive &lt;#&gt; |leading_zeros=0 |indexhere=yes}}<br /> {{Archive box|auto=yes|search=yes | bot = Lowercase sigmabot III | age = 90 |index=/Archive index}}<br /> <br /> ==Attacks in Israel==<br /> I realize there have been an enormous debate about what to label as &quot;islamic terrorism&quot;, I would just like to point out to the fact that there is an abnormally large amount of attacks listed in Israel that have been considered as religiously motivated rather than politically. Has anyone checked to see if the claim is supported by reliable sources? [[User:Makeandtoss|Makeandtoss]] ([[User talk:Makeandtoss|talk]]) 14:37, 4 April 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Switching to boxes ==<br /> <br /> Currently working on the attacks from 2002-2009, so if you were about to work on them, don't waste your time. I should be done very soon. [[User:Ralphw|Ralphw]] ([[User talk:Ralphw|talk]]) 00:52, 3 May 2016 (UTC)<br /> :I just finished the 2002 one, I'm going to try and finish the next years during the next week or so. [[User:Ralphw|Ralphw]] ([[User talk:Ralphw|talk]]) 03:17, 3 May 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::What's the status of this? [[User:Natureium|Natureium]] ([[User talk:Natureium|talk]]) 18:27, 29 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ==Flags==<br /> Why exactly have the flags that were here until the 1st of May 2016 been removed and replaced with country names alone? [[Special:Contributions/119.224.86.235|119.224.86.235]] ([[User talk:119.224.86.235|talk]]) 01:23, 13 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :My guess is [[WP:FLAGCRUFT]]. But not sure. We really don't need flags generally. [[User:EvergreenFir|'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:#8b00ff;&quot;&gt;Eve&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#6528c2;&quot;&gt;rgr&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#3f5184;&quot;&gt;een&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#197947;&quot;&gt;Fir&lt;/span&gt;''']] [[User talk:EvergreenFir|(talk)]] &lt;small&gt;Please &amp;#123;&amp;#123;[[Template:re|re]]&amp;#125;&amp;#125;&lt;/small&gt; 01:43, 13 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::As I wrote in my [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_Islamist_terrorist_attacks&amp;diff=718020549&amp;oldid=718018377 edit summary] when I removed them, [[WP:WORDPRECEDENT|Words as the primary means of communication]]/[[WP:EGG]], [[MOS:FLAG]], and [[Talk:List of Islamist terrorist attacks/Archive 3#RFc for major restructuring]], where the closer noted &quot;strong support for no flags&quot;. —&amp;nbsp;[[User:Malik Shabazz|Malik Shabazz]]&amp;nbsp;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Malik Shabazz|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt;/&lt;sub&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Malik Shabazz|Stalk]]&lt;/sub&gt; 02:34, 13 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::: IMO, the flags were helpful to quickly see which country the attack happened in, but if it's against the wiki rules, I'm not even going to argue. [[User:R00b07|R00b07]] ([[User talk:R00b07|talk]]) 02:02, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == 'Splain, Lucy. ==<br /> <br /> {{ping|Malik Shabazz}} [[Christian terrorism]]. No one had to invent a new word—Christist, Christianist, ''papist'' (gasp! the offensiveness!), whatever—to describe ''that'', and that's considered perfectly NPOV. Why would &quot;Islamic&quot; be any different, especially given that the main article is [[Islamic terrorism]]? '''''[[User:Jujutsuan|&lt;font color=&quot;green&quot;&gt;Jujutsuan&lt;/font&gt;]]''''' (&lt;small&gt;Please notify with &amp;#123;&amp;#123;[[Template:re|re]]&amp;#125;&amp;#125;&lt;/small&gt; &amp;#124; [[User talk:Jujutsuan|talk]] &amp;#x7C; [[Special:Contributions/Jujutsuan|contribs]]) 03:02, 13 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :if you don't understand the difference between Islamic and Islamist, [[wiktionary]] is that way. —&amp;nbsp;[[User:Malik Shabazz|Malik Shabazz]]&amp;nbsp;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Malik Shabazz|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt;/&lt;sub&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Malik Shabazz|Stalk]]&lt;/sub&gt; 03:09, 13 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::Ever heard of [[WP:CIVIL]]? You started with the attitude in your snarky edit summary. I know the difference. But a Muslim committing an act of terrorism ''in the name of Islam'' is, by definition, [[Islamic terrorism]]. Islamism is a relgio-political ideology, and one source, but not the only source, of [[Islamic terrorism]]. And the main page is called [[Islamic terrorism]]. Have I mentioned that the main page is called [[Islamic terrorism|IslamIC terrorism]]?? '''''[[User:Jujutsuan|&lt;font color=&quot;green&quot;&gt;Jujutsuan&lt;/font&gt;]]''''' (&lt;small&gt;Please notify with &amp;#123;&amp;#123;[[Template:re|re]]&amp;#125;&amp;#125;&lt;/small&gt; &amp;#124; [[User talk:Jujutsuan|talk]] &amp;#x7C; [[Special:Contributions/Jujutsuan|contribs]]) 03:13, 13 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::Have I mentioned that I don't give a *bleep* what the morons who edit the &quot;main page&quot; choose to call it? This is a list of Islamist attacks, and has been since it was moved to this title (following a [[Talk:List of Islamist terrorist attacks/Archive 2#Requested move 26 March 2015|move discussion]]) more than a year ago. Did you think that maybe you should move the other article to match this article's title? The morons who edit that page can't agree what it's about or find a source for their made-up '''definition''' of what &quot;Islamic terrorism&quot; is. So while that article is fully protected, you come here, to an article you probably never even read before today, and move it. Nice work. And ''I'' have some &quot;'splaining&quot; to do. Nice touch. Have I mentioned that I don't give a fuck what the morons who edit the &quot;main page&quot; choose to call it? —&amp;nbsp;[[User:Malik Shabazz|Malik Shabazz]]&amp;nbsp;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Malik Shabazz|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt;/&lt;sub&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Malik Shabazz|Stalk]]&lt;/sub&gt; 03:35, 13 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::List articles don't set precedent of any degree of force. That's the privilege of main articles, which lists by default aren't. Yes, you have, about three times. How original of you. You've also mentioned that they're morons (and me too, by extension), plus vulgarities. &quot;Nice work.&quot; (See, I give attribution when I copy something.) '''''[[User:Jujutsuan|&lt;font color=&quot;green&quot;&gt;Jujutsuan&lt;/font&gt;]]''''' (&lt;small&gt;Please notify with &amp;#123;&amp;#123;[[Template:re|re]]&amp;#125;&amp;#125;&lt;/small&gt; &amp;#124; [[User talk:Jujutsuan|talk]] &amp;#x7C; [[Special:Contributions/Jujutsuan|contribs]]) 03:43, 13 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::::Malik's point about the meaning of the terms is correct, even if accompanied by incivilities. The move is contested. I agree with Malik's point; the attacks are Islamist (based in fundamentalist or radical Islam). [[User:EvergreenFir|'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:#8b00ff;&quot;&gt;Eve&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#6528c2;&quot;&gt;rgr&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#3f5184;&quot;&gt;een&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#197947;&quot;&gt;Fir&lt;/span&gt;''']] [[User talk:EvergreenFir|(talk)]] &lt;small&gt;Please &amp;#123;&amp;#123;[[Template:re|re]]&amp;#125;&amp;#125;&lt;/small&gt; 04:32, 13 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::Also agree with Malik and EvergreenFir. You're obviously around long enough to know about the requirement for agreement on contentious moves. [[User:Bastun|&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Verdana, sans-serif&quot;&gt;Bastun&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Bastun|Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!]]&lt;/sup&gt; 09:19, 13 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Orlando shooting ==<br /> <br /> I have removed the 2016 Orlando nightclub shooting from this list. It does not meet the stated inclusion criteria for the list. The fact that ISIL has, via their media agency, made such a claim does not make it true. The FBI has not made such a determination. Including this entry in this article violates a number of Wikipedia policies including [[WP:OR]] and [[WP:NPOV]].- [[user: MrX|Mr]][[user talk:MrX|X]] 20:31, 19 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :Reverted removal per [[WP:BRD]]. Let's see...<br /> :*Terror attacks... check.<br /> :*by Islamist extremists... check.<br /> :*to further a '''perceived''' Islamic religious or political cause... check.<br /> :*have occurred globally... Orlando is on earth: check.<br /> :*The attackers have used such tactics as arson, vehicle rampage attacks, bomb threats, suicide attacks, bombings, '''spree shooting''', stabbings, hijackings, kidnappings and beheadings... check.<br /> :*The following is a list of Islamist terrorist attacks that have received significant press coverage since 1980... check.<br /> :The FBI is not the only RS to consider. Plenty of RS have determined it was an Islamic terrorist attack. Deserves inclusion. '''''[[User:Jujutsuan|&lt;font color=&quot;green&quot;&gt;Jujutsuan&lt;/font&gt;]]''''' (&lt;small&gt;Please notify with &amp;#123;&amp;#123;[[Template:re|re]]&amp;#125;&amp;#125;&lt;/small&gt; &amp;#124; [[User talk:Jujutsuan|talk]] &amp;#x7C; [[Special:Contributions/Jujutsuan|contribs]]) 20:48, 19 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::*Please cite one or more reliable sources that says that the Orlando shooting was conducted by &quot;Islamic extremists&quot;.<br /> ::*Please cite one or more reliable sources that state that Mateen was trying to further an &quot;Islamic religious or political cause&quot;<br /> :::Note that ISIL's media agency is not a reliable source for anything. Note also that the media speculation is not a substitute for facts.- [[user: MrX|Mr]][[user talk:MrX|X]] 21:06, 19 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::I've had misgivings about the Orlando shooting from the beginning. A [http://www.dictionary.com/browse/local-yokel local yokel] announced that the shooter in a homophobic mass shooting had pledged allegiance to ISIL, NBC News announced it as if it were a fact, and all the world media ran with it, sometimes attributing it to NBC News and sometimes not. That doesn't make a homophobic mass shooting an Islamist terrorist attack. How about citing a real expert in Islamism or terrorism? —&amp;nbsp;[[User:Malik Shabazz|Malik Shabazz]]&amp;nbsp;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Malik Shabazz|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt;/&lt;sub&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Malik Shabazz|Stalk]]&lt;/sub&gt; 21:59, 19 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::Agreed. By later accounts, this appears to have been a combination of some mixed up homophobia/self-hate with some attempted justification on the part of the perpetrator and bandwagon-jumping by ISIL. [[User:Bastun|&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Verdana, sans-serif&quot;&gt;Bastun&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Bastun|Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!]]&lt;/sup&gt; 22:49, 19 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::{{ec}} The case for calling this an &quot;Islamist terrorist attack&quot; is very weak if we follow the sources that I've seen. The sources in the article simple do not support the material in the article. The Daily Mail article says that &quot;ISIS has claimed responsibility&quot;. ISIS is a fringe source and their view can't be asserted in Wikipedia's voice. The Washington Post article merely says that Mateen pledged allegiance to ISIL{{emdash}}again, insufficient for making a conclusion that the shooting was an &quot;Islamist terrorist attack&quot; in Wikipedia's voice. Someone needs to present sources that actually says the Orlando shooting was an Islamist terrorist attack, or it has to be removed per [[WP:V]] and [[WP:OR]]. {{U|Jujutsuan}}, you said {{tq|&quot;Plenty of RS have determined it was an Islamic terrorist attack.&quot;}} Please provide links to some sources that actually say that. - [[user: MrX|Mr]][[user talk:MrX|X]] 23:09, 19 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::::Is [http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/13/us/orlando-nightclub-shooting.html?_r=0 NYT] good enough for you? Not to mention the ''[http://www.nationalreview.com/article/436507/orlando-attack-was-islamic-terrorism-obama-still-refuses-name-it National Review]'' (POV, yes, but reputable) and [http://www.cbsnews.com/news/orlando-shooting-investigation-gunman-omar-mateen-911-call/ CBS]. He pledged allegiance to ISIS; that can ''only mean'' he was an Islamic terrorist, at least in his own mind (which is, incidentally, what makes someone an ''Islamic'' terrorist instead of just a generic terrorist; ISIS leadership didn't have to plan it or have any contact with Mateen in order for him to have done it in their name and according to (his interpretation of) their ideology/exegesis.). No &quot;experts on Islamism&quot; are needed to confirm the obvious when he's stated his motives in plain English. It doesn't even matter if it was a secondary motive; it was still at least part of his rationale. '''''[[User:Jujutsuan|&lt;font color=&quot;green&quot;&gt;Jujutsuan&lt;/font&gt;]]''''' (&lt;small&gt;Please notify with &amp;#123;&amp;#123;[[Template:re|re]]&amp;#125;&amp;#125;&lt;/small&gt; &amp;#124; [[User talk:Jujutsuan|talk]] &amp;#x7C; [[Special:Contributions/Jujutsuan|contribs]]) 00:27, 20 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::::::None of those sources state that the shooting was an &quot;Islamist terrorist attack&quot;. In fact, one source says that according to FBI Director James Comey, &quot;the shooter’s past comments about Islamist groups were &quot;inflammatory and contradictory.&quot;. - [[user: MrX|Mr]][[user talk:MrX|X]] 00:41, 20 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::::::The ''National Review'' may (or may not) be reputable, but it is absolutely not a [[WP:reliable source|reliable source]] for facts. And why are the other two sources nearly a week old? Have authorities learned nothing about the attack since last Monday morning? —&amp;nbsp;[[User:MShabazz|MShabazz]]&amp;nbsp;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Malik Shabazz|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt;/&lt;sub&gt;[[Special:Contributions/MShabazz|Stalk]]&lt;/sub&gt; 01:12, 20 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::::::I'm conflicted on this at the moment. We do &quot;variability, not truth&quot;, but RS are starting to cast doubt on the event as being Islamist extremism/terrorism. The classification as &quot;Islamist&quot; is what's being questioned. Since there's &quot;no deadline&quot; and all, it may be prudent to exclude it for now until a more firm conclusion is given by investigators. At the same time, if it is included, it can always be removed if things change. [[User:EvergreenFir|'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:#8b00ff;&quot;&gt;Eve&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#6528c2;&quot;&gt;rgr&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#3f5184;&quot;&gt;een&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#197947;&quot;&gt;Fir&lt;/span&gt;''']] [[User talk:EvergreenFir|(talk)]] &lt;small&gt;Please &amp;#123;&amp;#123;[[Template:re|re]]&amp;#125;&amp;#125;&lt;/small&gt; 02:07, 20 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::::::::Regarding ''National Review'', [[WP:BIASED]] says: &lt;font color=green&gt;&quot;Wikipedia articles are required to present a neutral point of view. However, reliable sources are not required to be neutral, unbiased, or objective.&quot;&lt;/font&gt; So why exactly is it not RS-worthy??<br /> :::::::::Regarding your other complaints, it has been determined that he swore his allegiance to ISIS (confused, contradictory, or otherwise). Are you saying ISIS isn't Islamist or Islamic terrorist? This is really very simple. '''''[[User:Jujutsuan|&lt;font color=&quot;green&quot;&gt;Jujutsuan&lt;/font&gt;]]''''' (&lt;small&gt;Please notify with &amp;#123;&amp;#123;[[Template:re|re]]&amp;#125;&amp;#125;&lt;/small&gt; &amp;#124; [[User talk:Jujutsuan|talk]] &amp;#x7C; [[Special:Contributions/Jujutsuan|contribs]]) 03:39, 20 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::::::::Him swearing allegiance matters less than how RS characterize the attack. I may be determined his actions were not Islamist terrorism despite him trying to make them appear to be so. But what matters here is what RS call it. That's why I'm conflicted: RS characterizations of events are changing as the information available changes. So too must Wikipedia change in response to the RS. But if we see things are influx, contradictory, or being questioned by top-quality RS and investigators alike, we do have the option to postpone our decisions pending further information. There is not deadline and no need to publish the latest, breaking news (NOTNEWS after all). I think within a week we'll have a better idea of what to do. Until then, I'm not going to commit one way or the other. [[User:EvergreenFir|'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:#8b00ff;&quot;&gt;Eve&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#6528c2;&quot;&gt;rgr&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#3f5184;&quot;&gt;een&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#197947;&quot;&gt;Fir&lt;/span&gt;''']] [[User talk:EvergreenFir|(talk)]] &lt;small&gt;Please &amp;#123;&amp;#123;[[Template:re|re]]&amp;#125;&amp;#125;&lt;/small&gt; 03:59, 20 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::::::::::Produce the RS that contradicts the claim that he was a self-radicalized islamic terrorist. [[User:Mrdthree|Mrdthree]] ([[User talk:Mrdthree|talk]]) 12:17, 20 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::::::::The world's asylums are full of people who claim they're [[Napoleon]]. If one of them attacks a psychiatric nurse, we don't attribute the attack to the [[First French Empire|French Empire]] - even if clickbaity tabloids or reactionary sources do. [[User:Bastun|&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Verdana, sans-serif&quot;&gt;Bastun&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Bastun|Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!]]&lt;/sup&gt; 08:56, 20 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::::::::::The Director of the FBI said he was a self radicalized islamic extremist. Your are making unsourced speculation [[User:Mrdthree|Mrdthree]] ([[User talk:Mrdthree|talk]]) 12:17, 20 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::::::::::Here's a quote and source: {{tq|In fact, intelligence officials and investigators say they're &quot;becoming increasingly convinced that the motive for this attack had very little — or maybe nothing — to do with ISIS.&quot;}} [http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2016/06/18/482621690/investigators-say-orlando-shooter-showed-few-warning-signs-of-radicalization]. Also check out [https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2016/06/13/omar-mateen-may-not-have-understood-the-difference-between-isis-al-qaeda-and-hezbollah/]. There's questions being raised by investigators about whether or not this was truly Islamist terrorism or just someone using it as an excuse/cover. [[User:EvergreenFir|'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:#8b00ff;&quot;&gt;Eve&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#6528c2;&quot;&gt;rgr&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#3f5184;&quot;&gt;een&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#197947;&quot;&gt;Fir&lt;/span&gt;''']] [[User talk:EvergreenFir|(talk)]] &lt;small&gt;Please &amp;#123;&amp;#123;[[Template:re|re]]&amp;#125;&amp;#125;&lt;/small&gt; 20:45, 20 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::::::::::::Again the NPR story is the only source on the claim and its based on anonymous sources that contradict the statements of officials on the record, including the president. The other story is about a comment he made to coworkers 3 years earlier. It is grasping at straws to psychoanalyze a dead man who had no psychiatric problems to the point that it overrides what he said he did when its consistent with his past behavior.[[User:Mrdthree|Mrdthree]] ([[User talk:Mrdthree|talk]]) 22:28, 21 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::Multiple official and news sources stated that the killer is a terrorist. Multiple official and news sources say that he was a self-radicalized islamist. Deeper investigation into triggers are speculative. A growing list is below.[[User:Mrdthree|Mrdthree]] ([[User talk:Mrdthree|talk]]) 10:25, 20 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::: Miami Herald: http://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/community/miami-dade/article83819372.html, 'Terror enemy No. 1: Lone wolves like Orlando killer Omar Mateen'; cites President Obama President Barack Obama said “it is increasingly clear” that the killer, a U.S. citizen, became “radicalized” by “extremist information and propaganda over the internet”. Comey, the FBI director, said no evidence gathered so far pointed to a “plot directed from outside the United States” or that the killer was a member of a foreign terrorist organization.[[User:Mrdthree|Mrdthree]] ([[User talk:Mrdthree|talk]]) 10:25, 20 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::: http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2016/06/orlando-shooters-motives-remain-unclear.html 'As Profile of Orlando Shooter Develops, Questions About His Motives Remain' But while nothing we've learned from further investigation into Mateen’s life has invalidated the theory that he was ultimately motivated by Islamic extremism, a profile has developed which, at this point, may align better with a typical mass-shooter than a man who was solely inspired by ISIS to become a jihadist.[[User:Mrdthree|Mrdthree]] ([[User talk:Mrdthree|talk]]) 10:25, 20 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::: http://www.cbsnews.com/news/fbi-to-release-transcript-of-calls-between-orlando-gunman-omar-mateen-police/ FBI to release transcript of calls between Orlando gunman, police At this point, Lynch said investigators do not have any information that reveals Mateen was being directed from overseas terrorist networks. Investigators, however, have found evidence of online radicalization.[[User:Mrdthree|Mrdthree]] ([[User talk:Mrdthree|talk]]) 10:25, 20 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/jun/13/pulse-nightclub-attack-shooter-radicalized-internet-orlando FBI and Obama confirm Omar Mateen was radicalized on the internet. 'Comey added that he was “highly confident” that Mateen had been radicalized at least in part online. In chorus with Obama he emphasized that there continued to be no evidence, however, of any direct plot, or direction of the shooter, by any foreign group or network.' [[User:Mrdthree|Mrdthree]] ([[User talk:Mrdthree|talk]]) 12:13, 20 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::Er, you do realise '''none''' of those quotes back what you're saying? Quite the opposite, in fact. [[User:Bastun|&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Verdana, sans-serif&quot;&gt;Bastun&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Bastun|Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!]]&lt;/sup&gt; 10:34, 20 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::: They all say he was a self-radicalized islamist. Isnt that what this is about?[[User:Mrdthree|Mrdthree]] ([[User talk:Mrdthree|talk]]) 10:40, 20 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::: So show the good faith brother. Here is the article https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/jun/13/pulse-nightclub-attack-shooter-radicalized-internet-orlando FBI and Obama confirm Omar Mateen was radicalized on the internet. Explain how this disproves he was an islamic radical. [[User:Mrdthree|Mrdthree]] ([[User talk:Mrdthree|talk]]) 12:02, 20 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::* &quot;No evidence gathered so far pointed to a plot directed from outside the US or that the killer was a member of a terrorist org&quot;; <br /> :::::* &quot;a profile has developed which, at this point, may align better with a typical mass-shooter than a man who was solely inspired by ISIS to become a jihadist.&quot;<br /> :::::* &quot;At this point, Lynch said investigators do not have any information that reveals Mateen was being directed from overseas terrorist networks.&quot;<br /> :::::* &quot;there continued to be no evidence, however, of any direct plot, or direction of the shooter, by any foreign group or network.&quot;<br /> :::::These, combined with other sources claiming Mateen was probably gay himself, point to a lone-wolf psychotic rather than any sort of organised terrorism. [[User:Bastun|&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Verdana, sans-serif&quot;&gt;Bastun&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Bastun|Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!]]&lt;/sup&gt; 12:42, 20 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::::: The last item is unsourced speculation. Where does it say this list excludes lone wolf islamic terrorism? [[User:Mrdthree|Mrdthree]] ([[User talk:Mrdthree|talk]]) 12:50, 20 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::::::As Bastun has aptly pointed out, the sources presented immediately above contradict the notion that the shooting was an Islamist terrorist attack. At best, they support the claim &quot;Mateen may have been radicalized over the internet&quot;. That is far too speculative to justify including the shooting on list of Islamist terrorist attacks. [[WP:OP|We simply can't make such leaps of logic]].- [[user: MrX|Mr]][[user talk:MrX|X]] 13:26, 20 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::::::The 911 call he made to the cops don't mention gays at all, it just mentions Islam and ISIL. I find it hard to believe the bending over backwards we see here to not call this Islamist terror. It is very well sourced and should be included. &quot;swears allegiance to ISIS&quot; is the next one down, and this attack is certainly more than that. The bias of editors not withstanding, the sources clearly show the inspiration for this attack.[[User:Sir Joseph|Sir Joseph]] &lt;sup&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;Green&quot;&gt;[[User_talk:Sir Joseph|(talk)]]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/sup&gt; 16:42, 20 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> {{od}}[https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2016/06/20/what-the-orlando-gunman-told-hostage-negotiators-and-dispatchers-during-his-rampage/ &quot;many questions remain unanswered. Investigators do not know ... Mateen’s reasons for attacking the popular LGBT nightspot.&quot;] From an article written '''today''' on the ''Washington Post'' website. Not week-old speculation, but the current status of the investigation. —&amp;nbsp;[[User:Malik Shabazz|Malik Shabazz]]&amp;nbsp;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Malik Shabazz|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt;/&lt;sub&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Malik Shabazz|Stalk]]&lt;/sub&gt; 16:53, 20 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :Right, we don't know everything yet, why he chose that or whatever. But we do know it was Islamic Terrorism. He said as such. The 911 calls say as such and the sources say as such. The shooter pledged support to ISIS, how is that not enough? It was enough for the France incident, it was enough for many other incidents. Why the sudden urge to not include very well sourced information? http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2016/06/19/lynch_partial_transcript_of_orlando_911_calls_will_have_references_to_isis_cut_out.html There is a difference between saying this was an ISIS attack or just saying this was Islamic Terror. We don't know if this was sponsored by ISIL and most likely wasn't, but it was Islamic Terror. Partial Transcript: http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/orlando-nightclub-massacre/fbi-releases-transcripts-911-calls-orlando-massacre-n595626 &quot;In these calls, the shooter, who '''identified himself as an Islamic soldier''', &quot;, &quot;: '''I pledge allegiance to [omitted]''' may God protect him [in Arabic], on behalf of [omitted].&quot; and more.[[User:Sir Joseph|Sir Joseph]] &lt;sup&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;Green&quot;&gt;[[User_talk:Sir Joseph|(talk)]]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/sup&gt; 16:56, 20 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> : You are selectively quoting the source. the source (FBI Assistant Special Agent in Charge Ron Hopper) went on to say ....agents think Mateen “was radicalized domestically,” rather than directed by any foreign terrorist group. This is what every reliable source with named sources states. Not my opinion. [[User:Mrdthree|Mrdthree]] ([[User talk:Mrdthree|talk]]) 05:03, 21 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::See above, re Napoleon. If he'd identified himself as a Martian, that still wouldn't make it an act of interplanetary terrorism. Per plenty of sources, the perpetrator seems to have been a disturbed individual, probably gay himself, which caused him all sorts of mental problems given his apparent contradictory religious beliefs. [[User:Bastun|&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Verdana, sans-serif&quot;&gt;Bastun&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Bastun|Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!]]&lt;/sup&gt; 18:22, 20 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::I guess that's one way to make sure there is no list of Islamic Terror acts. [[User:Sir Joseph|Sir Joseph]] &lt;sup&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;Green&quot;&gt;[[User_talk:Sir Joseph|(talk)]]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/sup&gt; 18:28, 20 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::No. It's one way to ensure that the list of Islam'''''ist''''' (notice the difference, it's important) terrorist acts - which I've added to myself - is '''accurate'''. [[User:Bastun|&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Verdana, sans-serif&quot;&gt;Bastun&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Bastun|Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!]]&lt;/sup&gt; 18:43, 20 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::* [https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/troubled-quiet-macho-angry-the-volatile-life-of-omar-mateen/2016/06/17/15229250-34a6-11e6-8758-d58e76e11b12_story.html &quot;Mateen appeared conflicted about his religion and his sexuality, according to dozens of interviews with those who knew him. He married twice, each time to a woman he had met online, even though he also seemed drawn to gay life and culture.&quot;]<br /> :::::* [http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/orlando-shooter-omar-mateen-had-gay-tendencies-according-to-ex-wife-as-pulse-patron-say-attacker-was-a7081041.html Orlando shooter Omar Mateen's ex-wife says he had 'gay tendencies' as Pulse patron describes attacker as 'a regular']<br /> :::::* [http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/news/orlando-shooter-omar-mateen-was-gay-former-classma/nrfwW/ The FBI is investigating reports that Orlando nightclub shooter Omar Mateen used gay dating apps and regularly visited Pulse before he shot more than 100 people inside, killing 49. One man said Mateen had asked him out, while another said they had chatted on a dating app].<br /> :::::Hardly your average Islamist terrorist... [[User:Bastun|&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Verdana, sans-serif&quot;&gt;Bastun&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Bastun|Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!]]&lt;/sup&gt; 19:11, 20 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::::Are you saying a gay person can't be a terrorist? Read the news today, there is no mention of his sexuality in the 911 transcripts, only Islam and terrorism related information was in the 911 call. [[User:Sir Joseph|Sir Joseph]] &lt;sup&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;Green&quot;&gt;[[User_talk:Sir Joseph|(talk)]]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/sup&gt; 19:40, 20 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::::I am saying the issue is a lot more complicated than &quot;He phoned 911 and said he was an Islamist terrorist&quot;. [[User:Bastun|&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Verdana, sans-serif&quot;&gt;Bastun&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Bastun|Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!]]&lt;/sup&gt; 19:48, 20 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::::::Then start to remove many of the items on the list where the &quot;terrorist claimed allegiance to ISIS.&quot; The DOJ just released the full transcript and again, no mention of gays, only Islam. [[User:Sir Joseph|Sir Joseph]] &lt;sup&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;Green&quot;&gt;[[User_talk:Sir Joseph|(talk)]]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/sup&gt; 20:04, 20 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::::::Er... why would you expect a mention of gays?! [[User:Bastun|&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Verdana, sans-serif&quot;&gt;Bastun&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Bastun|Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!]]&lt;/sup&gt; 20:07, 20 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::::::::From the 911 call from the gay club? Isn't it surprising that the killer didn't mention gays once, yet spoke about Islam? Again, he self-identified as a muslim terrorist, I fail to see the need to bend over backwards to have this labeled as a regulr shooting and not Islamic Terror. [[User:Sir Joseph|Sir Joseph]] &lt;sup&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;Green&quot;&gt;[[User_talk:Sir Joseph|(talk)]]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/sup&gt; 20:22, 20 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::::::::Once again - Islam'''ist''', not Islamic. I think your POV is showing... Still not sure why you think the 911 call needs to have mentioned gays, and I think it's irrelevant. What is relevant is that the person who murdered multiple gay people at a gay nightclub appears to have been a regular customer and was apparently gay himself. Which is not common among Islamist terrorists... [[User:Bastun|&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Verdana, sans-serif&quot;&gt;Bastun&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Bastun|Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!]]&lt;/sup&gt; 20:38, 20 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::::::::::Yes, but we cannot SYNTH one way or the other. RS reported it as Islamist terrorist at first. They're starting to question that (e.g., [http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2016/06/18/482621690/investigators-say-orlando-shooter-showed-few-warning-signs-of-radicalization]). As I said before, I can see a reason for inclusion here based on initial reporting, but we need to be prepared to remove or alter based on future reporting and investigation. If it comes to light that Mateen only used ISIL as a cover or excuse for his actions, but investigators find that this was a &quot;typical&quot; mass shooting, we need to remove it from here. That it's being questioned also justifies exclusion from the list until we have a firmer understanding of events and, more importantly, motive. [[User:EvergreenFir|'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:#8b00ff;&quot;&gt;Eve&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#6528c2;&quot;&gt;rgr&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#3f5184;&quot;&gt;een&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#197947;&quot;&gt;Fir&lt;/span&gt;''']] [[User talk:EvergreenFir|(talk)]] &lt;small&gt;Please &amp;#123;&amp;#123;[[Template:re|re]]&amp;#125;&amp;#125;&lt;/small&gt; 20:48, 20 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::::::::::::normally reliable but it's totally dependent on anonymous sources that contradict official statements. As a primary source it's quality is low.[[Special:Contributions/126.155.46.56|126.155.46.56]] ([[User talk:126.155.46.56|talk]]) 22:47, 20 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::::::::::::A primary source backed by unnamed claims of sources is not reliable. There are no reliable sources claiming he was not an islamist. [[User:Mrdthree|Mrdthree]] ([[User talk:Mrdthree|talk]]) 05:03, 21 June 2016 (UTC) <br /> ::::::::::::PS - please avoid mental illness labels. We do not know if Mateen was ill or not, and using things like &quot;psychotic&quot; to describe him and other shooters is unwarranted and, in this case, a violation of BDP. [[User:EvergreenFir|'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:#8b00ff;&quot;&gt;Eve&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#6528c2;&quot;&gt;rgr&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#3f5184;&quot;&gt;een&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#197947;&quot;&gt;Fir&lt;/span&gt;''']] [[User talk:EvergreenFir|(talk)]] &lt;small&gt;Please &amp;#123;&amp;#123;[[Template:re|re]]&amp;#125;&amp;#125;&lt;/small&gt; 20:50, 20 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::::::::::::You're correct, of course, about my use of the mental illness label - apologies. [[User:Bastun|&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Verdana, sans-serif&quot;&gt;Bastun&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Bastun|Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!]]&lt;/sup&gt; 21:34, 20 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::::::::::whether or not he was a member of ISIS is a red herring. He was investigated by the FBI as a radical Islamist twice before. Public statements made by named government sources in multiple primary sources say he was radicalized.[[Special:Contributions/126.155.46.56|126.155.46.56]] ([[User talk:126.155.46.56|talk]]) 22:47, 20 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::::::::::Not quite. &quot;[http://time.com/4368439/orlando-shooting-omar-mateen-fbi-investigation-dropped/ ...the bureau had investigated and interrogated Omar Mateen on three occasions over the last three years on '''''suspicion''''' he '''''might''''' have been a radicalized Islamic terrorist.&quot;] Of course, the FBI didn't pursue it because no crimes had been committed, and our system of justice is based on [[presumption of innocence]]. Saying that Mateen might have been &quot;radicalized&quot; is not the same as saying that the nightclub shooting was an &quot;Islamist terrorist attack&quot;. Wikipedia does not permit [[WP:OR]].- [[user: MrX|Mr]][[user talk:MrX|X]] 23:43, 20 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::::::::::::The conclusion of the FBI was that he was a radical muslim but not a criminal. He came under investigation because his extremism alarmed fellow muslims https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2016/06/20/i-reported-omar-mateen-to-the-fbi-trump-is-wrong-that-muslims-dont-do-our-part/ [[User:Mrdthree|Mrdthree]] ([[User talk:Mrdthree|talk]]) 04:54, 21 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::::::::::::Good context, but not RS in terms of use in article. [[User:EvergreenFir|'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:#8b00ff;&quot;&gt;Eve&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#6528c2;&quot;&gt;rgr&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#3f5184;&quot;&gt;een&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#197947;&quot;&gt;Fir&lt;/span&gt;''']] [[User talk:EvergreenFir|(talk)]] &lt;small&gt;Please &amp;#123;&amp;#123;[[Template:re|re]]&amp;#125;&amp;#125;&lt;/small&gt; 05:08, 21 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::::::::::::::The article has an FBI official confirm his story-- why isnt it an RS? In particular as evidence for his sympathies and beliefs shared with Anwar Alawaki[[User:Mrdthree|Mrdthree]] ([[User talk:Mrdthree|talk]]) 22:15, 21 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::::::::::::::Because things categorized as opinion pieces (which that is) are not [[WP:RS]]. We can attribute statements directly to the author if we think they're an authority on a certain issue. But better to use [[WP:SECONDARY]] sources. [[User:EvergreenFir|'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:#8b00ff;&quot;&gt;Eve&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#6528c2;&quot;&gt;rgr&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#3f5184;&quot;&gt;een&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#197947;&quot;&gt;Fir&lt;/span&gt;''']] [[User talk:EvergreenFir|(talk)]] &lt;small&gt;Please &amp;#123;&amp;#123;[[Template:re|re]]&amp;#125;&amp;#125;&lt;/small&gt; 22:18, 21 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> So suppose he had a gay affair (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3653734/Puerto-Rican-man-claiming-Orlando-shooter-s-gay-lover-describes-friends-benefits-relationship-says-attack-revenge-Omar-Mateen-discovered-one-men-d-threesome-HIV-positive.html) became concerned about having AIDS and then in a fit of revenge and reactionary religious fervor (saw his condition as the fulfillment of religious law) he attacked the nightclub. Does this rule in or rule out? (Speculating now so prob done for while) [[User:Mrdthree|Mrdthree]] ([[User talk:Mrdthree|talk]]) 07:20, 22 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :I think perhaps you may need to read policies such as [[WP:RS]], [[WP:V]], [[WP:NPOV]] and [[WP:NOR]], for starters... [[User:Bastun|&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Verdana, sans-serif&quot;&gt;Bastun&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Bastun|Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!]]&lt;/sup&gt; 20:03, 22 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> I have opened an RfC to cut the useless bickering. [[User:Kingsindian|Kingsindian]]&amp;nbsp;[[User Talk: Kingsindian|&amp;#9821;]]&amp;nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Kingsindian|&amp;#9818;]] 00:44, 23 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> <br /> EDIT: Didn't see survey. PS: I guess we should have survey about whether 9/11 or 7/7 was an Islamist attack. In fact, let's debate obvious facts until the cows come home. [[User:R00b07|R00b07]] ([[User talk:R00b07|talk]]) 23:46, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == RfC: Should the Orlando shooting be included in this list? ==<br /> <br /> {{rfc|pol|rfcid=EC3234A}}<br /> {{not a vote}}<br /> Should the [[2016 Orlando nightclub shooting]] be included in this list? 00:44, 23 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> === Survey ===<br /> * '''Strong Yes''': The act itself is an act of terrorism. This much is undisputed. Omar was a Muslim. This much is undisputed. We have official recordings and transcripts from Reliable Sources (911, police, district atty) of Omar pledging allegiance to ISIL. This is also undisputed. To say that this act of muslim terror is somehow excused because there is a rumor Omar was gay is simply against all common sense. <br /> * '''Strong Yes''': A self-proclaimed ISIS sympathizer, reported to the FBI on multiple occasions, kills dozens of people and injures dozens more...and we're debating if it had anything to do with Islamic terrorism? Have we lost our minds? I don't buy into the far-right narrative that says Wikipedia is a liberal thinktank...but this is sure playing into that. I challenge anything vote &quot;no&quot; to explain what could Omar Marteen have said or done, over what he already did, to convince you this was an Islamic terror attack? If you can't think of an answer, or have to go to great lengths to invent one, then consider you're letting your bias control you. Occam's razor makes this pretty simple... &lt;!-- Template:Unsigned --&gt;&lt;small&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—&amp;nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Ceran|Ceran]] ([[User talk:Ceran|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Ceran|contribs]]) 18:14, 30 June 2016 (UTC)&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/small&gt; &lt;!--Autosigned by SineBot--&gt;<br /> {{User:EvergreenFir/Zombie|Ceran|11 months}}&lt;font face=&quot;#&quot; color=&quot;#35b794&quot;&gt;[[User:Dschslava|'''Dsch'''slava]]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;#3558b7&quot;&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contribs/Dschslava|'' Δx '']]&lt;/sup&gt;[[User talk:Dschslava|parlez moi]]&lt;/font&gt; 04:57, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> ** Wikipedia has an obvious bias to the left. That this is even under debate is absurd, and clearly part of a liberal ideology to avoid associating Islam with terror and violence. Now that you've seen, look at other political issues on Wikipedia with new eyes. [[Special:Contributions/24.218.115.184|24.218.115.184]] ([[User talk:24.218.115.184|talk]]) 19:51, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::: Remember to [[WP:AGF]] or you will get in trouble. [[User:R00b07|R00b07]] ([[User talk:R00b07|talk]]) 02:08, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> * '''No''': At the moment, the motives remain unclear. It seems he did not have any links to foreign organizations like ISIS. See discussion [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:List_of_Islamist_terrorist_attacks#Orlando_shooting here] for various sources. [[User:Kingsindian|Kingsindian]]&amp;nbsp;[[User Talk: Kingsindian|&amp;#9821;]]&amp;nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Kingsindian|&amp;#9818;]] 00:44, 23 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> **You don't have to have any links in order to support the cause and implement an agenda. [[Special:Contributions/203.30.95.21|203.30.95.21]] ([[User talk:203.30.95.21|talk]]) 00:18, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> ***But you do have to have links to reliable sources to report it on Wikipedia. We are not a news outlet, we don't report what hasn't been reliably and widely reported. [[User:Mr rnddude|Mr rnddude]] ([[User talk:Mr rnddude|talk]]) 00:23, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> ****Right, we are an information hub and we use sources given by news outlets to provide accurate information to the public. [[User:R00b07|R00b07]] ([[User talk:R00b07|talk]]) 02:09, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> * '''Strong yes''': The attacker was reported by innumerable sources, including law enforcement agencies as well as numerous media outlets, as pledging allegiance to Islamist terror organizations and leaders and repeatedly stating that he was carrying out the attack in the name of Islam. Political considerations, such as those that led the FBI to attempt to redact mentions of Islam or ISIS from the transcripts of his calls, can and must not be taken into account when compiling data for an impartial encyclopedia. [[Special:Contributions/2601:602:9802:99B2:B5B0:510C:53AF:F763|2601:602:9802:99B2:B5B0:510C:53AF:F763]] ([[User talk:2601:602:9802:99B2:B5B0:510C:53AF:F763|talk]]) 02:19, 23 June 2016 (UTC) &lt;small&gt;— [[User:2601:602:9802:99B2:B5B0:510C:53AF:F763|2601:602:9802:99B2:B5B0:510C:53AF:F763]] ([[User talk:2601:602:9802:99B2:B5B0:510C:53AF:F763|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/2601:602:9802:99B2:B5B0:510C:53AF:F763|contribs]]) has made [[Wikipedia:Single-purpose account|few or no other edits]] outside this topic. &lt;/small&gt;<br /> :: '''Comment''': &quot;Political considerations...can and must not be taken into account...&quot; What do you mean to imply here? That sentence not only makes no sense, but you are also suggesting that an independent, impartial encyclopedia should presume that the official statements of law enforcement agencies should be completely disregarded when documenting an ongoing event involving [[WP:BLP]]s. Your &quot;political considerations&quot; are nothing more than conspiratorial nonsense. &lt;&gt; [[User:Alt lys er svunnet hen|Alt lys er svunnet hen]] ([[User talk:Alt lys er svunnet hen|talk]]) 08:34, 28 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> *'''No''' Today's news brought [http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/pulse-orlando-nightclub-shooting/omar-mateen/os-omar-mateen-lover-talks-20160622-story.html reports] that the gunman's male lover, who has been interviewed by the FBI, says the attack was motivated by revenge for mistreatment at the nightclub and fear of contracting HIV from gay Latinos. Read [[WP:NOTNEWS]] and [[WP:NODEADLINE]]. Let's wait for the dust to settle before we declare this Islamist terrorism. —&amp;nbsp;[[User:Malik Shabazz|Malik Shabazz]]&amp;nbsp;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Malik Shabazz|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt;/&lt;sub&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Malik Shabazz|Stalk]]&lt;/sub&gt; 02:36, 23 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ** The problem is that the dust did settle, and the FBI made it clear that it was Islamic Terror. [[User:R00b07|R00b07]] ([[User talk:R00b07|talk]]) 02:11, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> &lt;s&gt;*'''Too early to vote''' There is evidence for the position but there are developing stories that make it a mistake to commit to a particular conclusion now. As it is hard to undo these votes I would rather just leave the issue on hold and wait for evidence to develop. [[User:Mrdthree|Mrdthree]] ([[User talk:Mrdthree|talk]]) 03:30, 23 June 2016 (UTC)&lt;/s&gt;<br /> :: '''Comment''': The FBI has further investigated and found that there was no evidence Mateen was gay. http://www.nola.com/crime/index.ssf/2016/06/orlando_shooter_gay_omar_matee.html &lt;!-- Template:Unsigned --&gt;&lt;small&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—&amp;nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Marquis de Faux |Marquis de Faux ]] ([[User talk:Marquis de Faux |talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Marquis de Faux |contribs]]) 17:15, 30 June 2016&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/small&gt;<br /> *'''Yes''' Omar Mateen pledged allegence to ISIS https://www.fbi.gov/tampa/press-releases/2016/investigative-update-regarding-pulse-nightclub-shooting. ISIS has a strategy of encouraging lone wolf attacks in Western countries for more than two years https://www.fbi.gov/news/testimony/isil-in-america-domestic-terror-and-radicalization http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/jun/16/isis-promoting-lone-wolf-attacks-scheming-to-infil/ http://edition.cnn.com/2014/09/22/world/meast/isis-threatens-west/ Mateen voiced his motives to victims (saying it wasnt a racist attack it was to stop bombings of ISIL) http://www.democracynow.org/2016/6/15/headlines/orlando_survivor_says_shooter_wanted_us_to_stop_bombing_afghanistan and voiced his motives to officials which were to stop bombings of ISIL http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-06-15/orlando-gunman-wanted-to-stop-us-bombing-afghanistan/7511586 and posted the same motivations on facebook while the crime was in progress http://www.thehindu.com/news/international/stop-bombing-is-mateen-wrote-on-facebook/article8737808.ece. Official investigators and other press outlets discount gay revenge story http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-orlando-gay-fbi-20160623-snap-story.html, http://www.rollingstone.com/culture/news/authorities-no-evidence-orlando-shooter-omar-mateen-was-gay-20160624--[[User:Mrdthree|Mrdthree]] ([[User talk:Mrdthree|talk]]) 23:39, 27 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> There isn't a vote to be had here. http://www.cnn.com/2016/06/20/us/orlando-nightclub-shooting/ He pledged allegiance to ISIL's leader and ISIL in his 911 call. It shuold obviously included. Anyone saying no needs to have hteir head examined.[[Special:Contributions/65.29.77.61|65.29.77.61]] ([[User talk:65.29.77.61|talk]]) 05:24, 23 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::[[User:65.29.77.61]], no one is trying to suppress or exclude info about his 'allegiance calls'. But investigation is still unclear as to how much this was a conscious terrorist attack, how much homophobia, how much a disturbed individual best compared with a school-shooter. The true picture is that we don't know yet which it truly was. [[User:Pincrete|Pincrete]] ([[User talk:Pincrete|talk]]) 16:32, 23 June 2016 (UTC) <br /> :::::: Taking a gander at the other Islamist attacks, it's fairly obvious common-sense-wise why he did what he did. The tricky part is getting good sources to back up that what he did is inline with the THOUSANDS of other Islamist attacks that have happened across the globe. [[User:R00b07|R00b07]] ([[User talk:R00b07|talk]]) 02:07, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> *'''Yes''', he pledged allegiance to ISIS, on the 911 call, he mentioned Islam and did not mention gays at all. It clearly is the same as other terror attacks where &quot;pledged allegiance to ISIS.&quot; [[User:Sir Joseph|Sir Joseph]] &lt;sup&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;Green&quot;&gt;[[User_talk:Sir Joseph|(talk)]]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/sup&gt; 13:46, 23 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> *'''No'''. The fact that he &quot;did not mention gays at all&quot; is a somewhat bizarre [[non sequitur]]. If someone dressed as Napoleon or claiming allegiance to Mars attacked somewhere, we would not attribute it to the [[French Empire]] or add it to a [[List of interplanetary attacks]]. [[User:Bastun|&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Verdana, sans-serif&quot;&gt;Bastun&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Bastun|Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!]]&lt;/sup&gt; 15:12, 23 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :*And yet this same article had entries where the terrorist &quot;claimed allegiance&quot; to ISIS so is therefore included on the list. Same here. [[User:Sir Joseph|Sir Joseph]] &lt;sup&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;Green&quot;&gt;[[User_talk:Sir Joseph|(talk)]]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/sup&gt; 15:56, 23 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :*Somebody claiming to be Napoleon or from Mars is obviously wrong/lying though. So I don't think this is a valid argument. Somebody claiming allegiance to Napoleon and attacking a gay club would not act in allegiance to Napoleon because it does not align with Napoleon's goals. Somebody claiming allegiance with IS and attacking a gay club does act in allegiance with IS. It does not matter if he was radicalized abroad, domestic or on the internet. It does not matter if he acted by order of IS or not. So people arguing that this was not an islamist terrorist attack are basically saying it was a false flag operation to discredit IS? &lt;!-- Template:Unsigned IP --&gt;&lt;small class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—&amp;nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/212.202.124.186|212.202.124.186]] ([[User talk:212.202.124.186|talk]]) 10:07, 1 July 2016 (UTC)&lt;/small&gt; &lt;!--Autosigned by SineBot--&gt;<br /> :::Feel free to read this section to learn what people are saying. I don't think any of them are saying that. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#AAA;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 10:21, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> *'''Ambivalent''' - As pointed out above, other entries on this list have been made based on perpetrator claims. However, the current state of the investigator suggests other motives are possible (if not likely). I'm ambivalent because, on one hand, sources treated this as an Islamist terrorist attack. On the other hand, there's now doubt about that characterization. If it's included, we can always take it down should the investigation prove otherwise. The reverse is true too; we can always add it later. Our task is a bit like those of pollsters at fivethirtyeight predicting election outcomes: we must consider the trend and trajectory of the RS, and give weight based on recency, reputation, and depth. There's ample reason to include it based on older information, but sufficient reason to exclude it based on newer, better information. [[User:EvergreenFir|'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:#8b00ff;&quot;&gt;Eve&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#6528c2;&quot;&gt;rgr&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#3f5184;&quot;&gt;een&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#197947;&quot;&gt;Fir&lt;/span&gt;''']] [[User talk:EvergreenFir|(talk)]] &lt;small&gt;Please &amp;#123;&amp;#123;[[Template:re|re]]&amp;#125;&amp;#125;&lt;/small&gt; 16:22, 23 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> *'''Too early to say''' Therefore not yet. Whilst I respect EvergreenFir's we can add it or take it out assessment, I prefer the 'add it when clear' option. Alternatively make the text reflect that this is one of the theories being speculated about at present. We just don't know what the motive was yet. [[User:Pincrete|Pincrete]] ([[User talk:Pincrete|talk]]) 16:50, 23 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> * '''No need to [[Rush to Judgment]] here'''. This seems ([[opinion]]) to be more of a homophobic thing than a religious one. To me. At this time. [[User:Carptrash|Carptrash]] ([[User talk:Carptrash|talk]]) 18:16, 23 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> * '''No''': The more we learn about Omar Mateen, the more he seems to be a routine U.S. loner with a range of grudges against the world around him who jumped on the radical Islamic bandwagon after reading a few websites. At best it is too early to say what the motive was.--'''''[[User:ianmacm|&lt;span style=&quot;background:#88b;color:#cff;font-variant:small-caps&quot;&gt;♦Ian&lt;span style=&quot;background:#99c&quot;&gt;Ma&lt;span style=&quot;background:#aad&quot;&gt;c&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;M♦&lt;/span&gt;]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:ianmacm|(talk to me)]]&lt;/sup&gt;''''' 18:22, 23 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> *'''Strong No''' (and I think that's the first time in 3 years I've used the word &quot;strong&quot; in a !vote). This list, being almost entirely without context, should be limited to attacks specifically planned, manned, and/or financed by Islamic terrorist organizations (ISIL does not do that). No such link has been uncovered for Orlando, and not for lack of trying to find one. Mateen was a lone wolf with apparently a mix of motivations for his act, only one of which was propaganda he read on the Internet. It is unclear to what extent he subscribed to, or even understood, jihadist ideology. A witness said he said, &quot;I'm just tired of your people killing my people in Iraq,&quot; and that sort of thing is an extremely thin connection to Islamic terrorism. Our readers do not benefit from a broad-brush interpretation of the words &quot;Islamic terrorism&quot;. The predominance of reliable sources &lt;u&gt;do not&lt;/u&gt; state unequivocally that this was Islamic terrorism, and we do not cherry-pick our sources. The most applicable policies are [[WP:NOR]] and [[WP:NPOV]]. If that's not enough, an effective counter to most of the RS arguments is simple: [[WP:ONUS]]. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#AAA;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 20:25, 23 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::You've added the arbitrary requirement that lone wolf Islamist terrorist attacks cannot be included on this list. I don't see that restriction mentioned anywhere in the article and can imagine no justification for it. Do you have one? Same for the requirement that an attack cannot be included on the list unless it is determined there is only one motivation. If these are requirements, they should be spelled out in the main article: &quot;List of Islamist terrorist attacks planned or carried out by more than one person, and in which the attacker had only one motivation.&quot; Once we do that, then we can create another article that includes ALL Islamist terrorist attacks.[[User:Dansan99|Dansan99]] ([[User talk:Dansan99|talk]]) 01:32, 25 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::{{tq|You've added the arbitrary requirement that lone wolf Islamist terrorist attacks cannot be included on this list.}} Actually that is not an accurate characterization of my argument at all, on multiple points. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#AAA;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 03:44, 25 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::I apologize if I misinterpreted your saying that the list &quot;should be limited to attacks specifically planned, manned, and/or financed by Islamic terrorist organizations&quot; as precluding lone wolf terrorists. Instead of spending additional time analyzing your statement, I'll just ask you: Do you believe that lone wolf Islamist terrorists should be automatically excluded from the list?[[User:Dansan99|Dansan99]] ([[User talk:Dansan99|talk]]) 06:06, 25 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::::I reject the nuance-free premise that Mateen was a &quot;lone wolf Islamic terrorist&quot;. I did not call him that, you distorted my argument by adding that. This is an example of [[straw man]] argument, something to be avoided. I suppose it would be worth debating separately whether a lone wolf who clearly understood and subscribed to jihadist ideology, and who was clearly motivated by that alone, should be included in this list, but that is not the question being decided in this particular RfC. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#AAA;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 06:13, 25 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::::Whether or not he was a lone wolf Islamic terrorist is a separate question. I'm trying to establish a baseline of agreement on the requirements for inclusion of attacks in the list. Once there is agreement on that, it makes it easier to decide if this specific attack meets those requirements. It appears to me that the reason this discussion is so contentious is that we have not reached broad agreement on the requirements for inclusion in the list. One person way above used the first paragraph of the main article as a literal checklist of requirements. But, this immediately drew objections based on presumed requirements not in that list. Some examples that came up repeatedly were: 1. Should undirected, lone wolf attacks be included? 2. Should attacks with multiple motives be included? 3. Should attacks where the attacker has a confused understanding of his professed ideology be included? I think those decisions should be influenced by what reliable sources are saying. Once we decide the criteria, whether a particular attack fits is a separate discussion. But, whatever we decide this list is about should probably be included in the main article, so as not to create further confusion later on. In writing this, I've kind of concluded that this RfC is premature and will bow out of further discussion. When I have the time and energy, and if someone doesn't beat me to it, I'll start a separate topic or topics for discussing criteria for inclusion of attacks in the list.[[User:Dansan99|Dansan99]] ([[User talk:Dansan99|talk]]) 08:08, 25 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::::::I completely agree that this RfC is cart-before-horse if the developers of this article have failed to nail down the criteria for inclusion (which should have been the &lt;u&gt;first&lt;/u&gt; discussion here). But it doesn't work to change an RfC's question and scope midstream. If it were up to me, which it is not, we would abort this RfC as a waste of time and start over with the criteria question (which would also need an RfC). Barring that, we have no choice but to answer the question for Orlando alone, per the RfC's question, and that result could obviously be superseded by a later criteria result. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#AAA;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 08:34, 25 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::::::ISIL and AL Qaeda have had an explicit strategy of trying to recruit ''lone wolf'' terrorists for more than 2 years. Are you aware of this?http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/isis-official-calls-for-lone-wolf-attacks-in-us-and-europe-during-ramadan-a7042296.html http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/jun/16/isis-promoting-lone-wolf-attacks-scheming-to-infil/ http://edition.cnn.com/2014/09/22/world/meast/isis-threatens-west/ [[User:Mrdthree|Mrdthree]] ([[User talk:Mrdthree|talk]]) 23:29, 27 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::::::::I do draw a distinction between direct recruitment and publishing propaganda on the Internet for anyone to read. The last sentence of the article's lead reads: &quot;The Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) said it found no links between ISIL and Mateen.&quot; At the core of this question is whether it better serves our readers to be less selective or more selective in this list, a list that is necessarily without nuance, explanation, or context. My feeling is more selective, and I perceive a desire, conscious or otherwise, to blame as much violence as possible on Islamic terrorism, making Wikipedia a political tool. You are entitled to disagree, and there is probably no &quot;correct&quot; answer to this question. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#AAA;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 00:54, 28 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> *'''No''' per [[WP:V]]. Most reliable sources have not made any conclusive statements because they can't. It is unknown whether Mateen committed the shooting to &quot;further a perceived Islamic religious or political cause&quot;. Many sources speculate about other possible motives for the shooting, like homophobia, or anger about being exposed to HIV. Some sources say that Mateen ''may'' have been inspired by ISIL, but none that I have seen have unequivocally called the shooting an Islamist terrorist attack, so neither can we without committing [[WP:OR|original research]].- [[user: MrX|Mr]][[user talk:MrX|X]] 01:46, 24 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> *'''Strong Yes''', Frankly, I'm dumbfounded that there is any controversy about this at all. We have reliable sources for all the following: Officials have repeatedly referred to it as a terrorist attack. The perpetrator himself, during the attack, pledged allegiance to an Islamist terrorist organization. That organization sent out messages specifically encouraging lone wolf terrorist attacks by their followers on soft targets such as this. Perpetrator had been investigated in past by FBI for Islamist statements. Perpetrator during the attack said it was to influence government policy on bombing in Middle East. Despite reports by others, the FBI has said their investigations have found no credible evidence of a gay double life (and it wouldn't necessarily matter anyway). The evidence in favor of Islamic Terrorism is simply overwhelming. I see nothing but speculation to the contrary. Some people seem to be asking for evidence of ISIS being aware of and specifically directing the attack. That is not a requirement for this to be an Islamist terrorist attack. As stated above, the evidence is that this was a lone wolf attack of the type explicitly encouraged by ISIS.&quot;[[User:Dansan99|Dansan99]] ([[User talk:Dansan99|talk]]) 21:46, 24 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> *:You seem much more certain than the people officially investigating the shooting:<br /> :::{{talkquote|&quot;Comey said Mateen's statements added &quot;confusion&quot; about his inspiration for the attack, because Mateen had expressed loyalty to Islamist groups and figures that are opposed to each other. &quot;|source=''[http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-orlando-nightclub-shooting-live-fbi-director-mateen-claimed-loyalty-to-1465837231-htmlstory.html Los Angeles Times]''}}<br /> :::{{talkquote|&quot;&quot;I cannot tell you definitively that we will ever narrow it down to one motivation,&quot; U.S. Attorney General Loretta Lynch said.&quot;|source=''[http://www.cnn.com/2016/06/22/us/omar-mateen-timeline/ CNN]''}}<br /> :::{{talkquote|&quot;FBI Director James Comey said Monday that there was no evidence to indicate that Orlando mass shooter Omar Mateen was directed by an outside terror organization nor was he part of an international terror network.&quot;|source=''[http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2016/06/13/james-comey-fbi-orlando-shooting/85834956/ USA Today]''}}<br /> ::- [[user: MrX|Mr]][[user talk:MrX|X]] 22:20, 24 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::It's not at all unusual for a partisan to have a confused understanding of the group he is supporting. The question is what he believed (as indicated by what he said), not what makes sense to us. Besides, all the groups he declared allegiance to or affinity with are Islamist groups, so it doesn't change the answer to the question at hand. Regarding number of motivations, having one motivation is also not a requirement. We know he mentioned allegiance to an Islamist organization (he mentioned nothing else in the released transcript), and that's enough to make this list, even if secondary motivations are later determined. I already addressed the question of him being specifically directed by ISIS to carry out this particular attack. It's not a requirement. A lone wolf Islamist terrorist attack is still an Islamist terrorist attack.[[User:Dansan99|Dansan99]] ([[User talk:Dansan99|talk]]) 00:37, 25 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::Is a vote space a place to argue? If so Quote 1 regards a statement Mateen made in 2013. Quote 2 is irrelevant as all Official agree a primary motivation was islamic extremism. Quote 3 makes a distinction between domestic and international terrorism, not islamic and other terrorism[[User:Mrdthree|Mrdthree]] ([[User talk:Mrdthree|talk]]) 11:09, 25 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::It's not a vote space; it's a discussion to try to determine consensus. Quote 1 is directly related to his &quot;inspiration for the attack&quot;. Your comment about Quote 2 [[begs the question]]. Quote 3 doesn't make any distinction. It encompasses any outside terror organizations, which obviously includes Islamist terror organizations. It amplifies this by also stating that there is no evidence that he was part of &quot;an international terror network&quot;. The only thing it leaves unanswered is whether Mateen's apparently independent actions were motivated by Islamist extremism for furtherance of a political or religious agenda. His dubious pledge of allegiance is insufficient for making such a conclusion in Wikipedia's voice.- [[user: MrX|Mr]][[user talk:MrX|X]] 12:28, 25 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::::Its original research to claim that Quote 1 is in anyway related to the current attack. Please return to the article for context. Perhaps there are arguable elements in Q2 and Q3 but there is nothing dubious about his pledge of allegence to ISIS. It is an agreed fact. What you mean is that you doubt his capacity or honesty. However there is no record of insanity so his capacity is not at question. That means you doubt his honesty, correct? [[User:Mrdthree|Mrdthree]] ([[User talk:Mrdthree|talk]]) 11:16, 27 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::::{{tq|&quot;Its original research to claim that Quote 1 is in anyway related to the current attack&quot;}}. I guess you're saying the FBI Director used original research when he discussed Mateen's &quot;inspiration for the attack&quot;. Our [[WP:OR]] policy does not extend to reliable sources. I don't have an opinion about Mateen's &quot;honesty&quot; or state of mind, but the FBI director and several sources obviously do.- [[user: MrX|Mr]][[user talk:MrX|X]] 13:20, 27 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::::::OK I misunderstood the quote; I thought it was the 2013 reference. It is a reference to their current motivations. Here is Comeys statement about 'confusion': {{tq|&quot;During the calls he said he was doing this for the leader of ISIL, who he named and pledged loyalty to, but he also appeared to claim solidarity with the perpetrators of the Boston Marathon bombing, and solidarity with a Florida man who died as a suicide bomber in Syria for al Nusra Front, a group in conflict with Islamic State. The bombers at the Boston Marathon and the suicide bomber from Florida were not inspired by ISIL, which adds a little bit to the confusion about his motives.}} https://www.fbi.gov/news/speeches/update-on-orlando-terrorism-investigation [[User:Mrdthree|Mrdthree]] ([[User talk:Mrdthree|talk]]) 23:00, 27 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::::::The solidarity he expressed was in calling them homeboys, which is hardly a pledge of allegence (as he did to ISIS){{tq|During one of the 911 calls between the operator and Omar Mir Seddique Mateen, Mateen made a reference to the Tsarnaev brothers by calling them his “homeboys.” At this point in time, all evidence collected to date shows no connection between Mateen and the Tsarnaev brothers.&quot;}}https://www.fbi.gov/boston/press-releases/2016/statement-from-special-agent-in-charge-harold-h.-shaw-regarding-omar-mir-seddique-mateens-reference-to-the-tsarnaev-brothers. [[User:Mrdthree|Mrdthree]] ([[User talk:Mrdthree|talk]]) 23:12, 27 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::Exactly, all those quotes above can be perfectly true and coexist with Mateen's extremist motivation. In fact, that has been the affirmative motive of the attack according to investigators, from the article I posted below: &quot;He claimed the shooting was carried out in allegiance to the militant group Islamic State, as a message to halt U.S. bombing in Iraq and Syria.&quot; This isn't a &quot;process of elimination&quot; issue. &lt;small class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—&amp;nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/73.233.156.49|73.233.156.49]] ([[User talk:73.233.156.49|talk]]) 16:56, 25 June 2016 (UTC)&lt;/small&gt;&lt;!-- Template:Unsigned IP --&gt; &lt;!--Autosigned by SineBot--&gt;<br /> <br /> *'''Strong No'''. Need definite proof first. Unless declaring war and invading countries without evidence is back in vogue. &lt;small&gt;— [[User:2602:306:ce95:57b0:549d:5e23:e8eb:3703|2602:306:ce95:57b0:549d:5e23:e8eb:3703]] ([[User talk:2602:306:ce95:57b0:549d:5e23:e8eb:3703|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/2602:306:ce95:57b0:549d:5e23:e8eb:3703|contribs]]) has made [[Wikipedia:Single-purpose account|few or no other edits]] outside this topic. The preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment was added at 00:33, 25 June 2016‎ (UTC) (UTC).&lt;/small&gt;<br /> ::How much stronger evidence could there be than from the perpetrator's own lips?[[User:Dansan99|Dansan99]] ([[User talk:Dansan99|talk]]) 00:42, 25 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> *'''Strong Yes'''. I don't understand the argument that he may have had multiple motivations for the attack precluding the attack from being listed here; as long as one of the motivations was Islamist, then it ought to be included on this list and it certainly appears to be the main, if not only, motivation. I also don't see pledging allegiance to conflicting groups as an issue either since they are all, bottom line, Islamist groups or individuals. --[[User:Local hero|&lt;font color=&quot;blue&quot;&gt;Local hero&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Local hero|&lt;font color=&quot;dark yellow&quot;&gt;talk&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; 17:34, 25 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> *'''No'''. There is evidence that Mateen had pledged allegiance to both ISIS and Hezbollah, two groups which happen to be fighting against each other in the [[Syrian Civil War]]. His political and religious ideologies are confused, and his motivations for the shooting remain unclear as established by reliable sources. OT, how long is this article going to get before it gets broken up? &lt;&gt; [[User:Alt lys er svunnet hen|Alt lys er svunnet hen]] ([[User talk:Alt lys er svunnet hen|talk]]) 04:25, 27 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> *'''No'''. Needs to be stated in a source, rather than rumoured, for inclusion. [[Special:Contributions/PeterTheFourth|PeterTheFourth]] ([[User Talk:PeterTheFourth|talk]]) 12:40, 27 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::Here are sourced facts Omar Mateen pledged allegence to ISIS on the telephone and internet https://www.fbi.gov/tampa/press-releases/2016/investigative-update-regarding-pulse-nightclub-shooting. Mateen told his victims he was doing it to stop US bombing in Afghanistan/ISIL http://www.democracynow.org/2016/6/15/headlines/orlando_survivor_says_shooter_wanted_us_to_stop_bombing_afghanistan and he told police on the telephone he was doing it to stop US bombing in Afghanistan/ISIL http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-06-15/orlando-gunman-wanted-to-stop-us-bombing-afghanistan/7511586 and he posted the same motivations on facebook while the crime was in progress http://www.thehindu.com/news/international/stop-bombing-is-mateen-wrote-on-facebook/article8737808.ece. Official investigators and other press outlets discount gay revenge story http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-orlando-gay-fbi-20160623-snap-story.html, http://www.rollingstone.com/culture/news/authorities-no-evidence-orlando-shooter-omar-mateen-was-gay-20160624 [[User:Mrdthree|Mrdthree]] ([[User talk:Mrdthree|talk]]) 21:48, 28 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> *'''Of Course, YES''' - It would take some very strange reasoning not to include it. One of the reasons was radical Islamic belief. This is a slam dunk. [[User:Fyunck(click)|Fyunck(click)]] ([[User talk:Fyunck(click)|talk]]) 21:59, 28 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> *'''Definite Yes''' Same as San Bernardino, radicalized natural born turned Islamic homophobic terrorist. The FBI says claims he was gay are considered unsubstantiated. I don't care what nonsense Obama says about it and gun control, it's terrorism pure and simple especially considering his administration's been trying to scrub this fact from history as to partially censer recording of the calls the terrorist made. This shouldn't be up for debate when he's a Muslim extremist who has pledged allegiance to terrorist groups and states the political motive for the terrorist act.[[User:ShadowDragon343|ShadowDragon343]] ([[User talk:ShadowDragon343|talk]]) 13:04, 29 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> * '''Strong yes'''. It's absurd to armchair-quarterback Mateen's exact motivations, and claim that because there were more than one, he was not at least partially motivated by his religious views. In such cases, we should err on the side of what &lt;i&gt;the perpetrator's own stated motivation&lt;/i&gt; was. And with making decisions that involve suicide, religious views are typically a stronger motivating factor than others (how much more likely is someone to die for the promise of an afterlife than they are because they're conflicted about their sexuality?!) I've no doubt that at least some of the 9/11 attackers had multiple reasons for their involvement, but there's sufficient evidence that they were at least significantly motivated by their religious views. So too with Mateen. This comment is particularly absurd: &quot;&lt;i&gt;There is evidence that Mateen had pledged allegiance to both ISIS and Hezbollah, two groups which happen to be fighting against each other in the Syrian Civil War&lt;/i&gt;&quot;. And what is the commonality among ISIL and Hezbollah? &lt;u&gt;They're both Islamist groups&lt;/u&gt;. It's as ridiculous as claiming that because Osama bin Laden was Sunni Muslim who denounced Shiites, that he wasn't really an Islamist, because Shiites and Sunnis -- the two main sects of Islam -- are frequently in conflict. [[User:Bricology|Bricology]] ([[User talk:Bricology|talk]]) 19:24, 29 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :And I would add that it's irrelevant whether or not Mateen was directed by, authorized by, trained by or in any other way directly involved with, any outside group. One doesn't need any external influences to be to kill because of their religious views. It's straightforward enough to find motivation from the ideology itself. [[User:Bricology|Bricology]] ([[User talk:Bricology|talk]]) 19:40, 29 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> * '''NO. At least until confirmed by RS''' Most of !votes are are making arguments based on OR. It is basic policy that Wikipedia doesn't include material unless backed by multiple RS. The pertinent question is, do [[WP:RS|reliable sources]] commonly refer to this incident as a terrorist attack? If they do, then include it, if they don't then do not. Browsing news paper reports, it appears that they refer to it as the &quot;Orlando shooting&quot; or &quot;Orlando attack&quot;, but not as &quot;Orlando terrorism&quot; or &quot;Orlando terrorist attack&quot;. [[User:Lawrencekhoo|LK]] ([[User talk:Lawrencekhoo|talk]]) 02:49, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> *:You've noticed that this list is only for &lt;u&gt;Islamic&lt;/u&gt; terrorist attacks? There are other types of terrorism. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you just misspoke. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#AAA;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 04:26, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> *:: This makes my point even stronger. No RS has named the incident an &lt;u&gt;Islamic&lt;/u&gt; terrorist attack. [[User:Lawrencekhoo|LK]] ([[User talk:Lawrencekhoo|talk]]) 09:26, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> * '''Strong Yes''' The man himself stated what his motivations were. ISIS claimed credit. All other criteria are met. [[User:Evan1975|Evan1975]] ([[User talk:Evan1975|talk]]) 14:21, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> * '''Strong Yes''' I understand that points that this man may have been mentally ill and that this attack was not ''directed'' by ISIS, but those points are not relevant. ISIS intentionally targets those who are mentally ill, ISIS intentionally does not direct attacks in the United States where their communications can be intercepted, and ISIS intentionally congratulates and endorses lone gunman (or pairs/small groups) who attack in the United States. They intentionally release guides and propaganda encouraging these attacks to take place. Almost all Islamist terrorist attacks in the United States follow this same pattern. As far as a 'lack' of RS, the United States government has a vested interest in portraying ISIS as an organization with no physical presense in the United States and no support among American citizens and residents. The USA media protects the interests of the USA government. I don't think this is 'conspiratorial nonsense'. I would prefer if WP remained independent and did not become another arm of the USA propaganda machine. [[User:Brianbleakley|Brianbleakley]] ([[User talk:Brianbleakley|talk]]) 14:41, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> * '''Strong Yes''': The list says &quot;list of Islamist terrorist attacks,&quot; not &quot;list of terrorist attacks perpetrated by Islamic terrorist organizations.&quot; Omar Mateen was Islamic, he committed a terror attack, therefore the Orlando shooting was a terror attack by an Islamist. [[User:Vektor00|Vektor00]] ([[User talk:Vektor00|talk]]) 15:08, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> * '''Strong Yes''': Of course yes. It's not up to Wikipedia editors to figure out how they can twist the facts around to somehow conclude that there's not clear evidence it was a terror attack. If there's significant doubt (which I don't think there is) you can at least say that it's *widely claimed* to be a terror attack by [huge list of news organizations around the world whom have reported it as such.] I don't think that's even necessary, however. He was a Muslim and committed an Islamic-motivated act of terror by even the most stringent definition of the word. [[User:100DashSix|100DashSix]] ([[User talk:100DashSix|talk]]) 15:18, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::{{User:EvergreenFir/Zombie|100DashSix|2 years}} [[User:EvergreenFir|'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:#8b00ff;&quot;&gt;Eve&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#6528c2;&quot;&gt;rgr&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#3f5184;&quot;&gt;een&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#197947;&quot;&gt;Fir&lt;/span&gt;''']] [[User talk:EvergreenFir|(talk)]] &lt;small&gt;Please &amp;#123;&amp;#123;[[Template:re|re]]&amp;#125;&amp;#125;&lt;/small&gt; 00:17, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> * '''Strong yes''': Claims from the horses-mouth said are that he did it in accordance to his allegiance with ISIS and ISIS took credit. I don't care how prestigious and important a person's title is. Any third party investigators wanting to make sense of the attackers motivations, while ignoring statements made by the attacker, might as well just go home and twiddle their thumbs because they're doing nothing but wasting time.[[User:The Armchair General|The Armchair General]] ([[User talk:The Armchair General|talk]]) 15:27, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> * '''Strong yes''': He pledged allegiance to ISIS and Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, stated he was acting according to the will of Allah, and ISIS itself has claimed credit for the attack. Citations are too numerous to count. If this isn't an Islamic terror attack, nothing is. wikipedia's systemic bias is on full display in this ridiculous discussion. [[User:Jennyriarchi|Jennyriarchi]] ([[User talk:Jennyriarchi|talk]]) 15:41, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> * '''Comment''': Since this is picking up [http://www.breitbart.com/tech/2016/06/30/wikipedia-removes-orlando-shooting-islamist-terror-attack-list/ media coverage on Breitbart.com] and [[User:MrX]] is getting criticized, let's look at what happened. During the hostage situation, Omar Mateen called 911 and made a [[Bay'ah]] (pledge of allegiance) to ISIL. This isn't in dispute, and it has appeared in numerous reliable sources. What is in dispute is whether anyone in ISIL had ever heard of Mateen prior to the attack, which now seems unlikely. Mateen's knowledge of radical Islamic ideology seems to have been acquired from websites and was thin and confused at best. Investigators have moved away from the theory that this was a planned attack by a terrorist organization, such as the Bataclan theater attack in Paris in November 2015.--'''''[[User:ianmacm|&lt;span style=&quot;background:#88b;color:#cff;font-variant:small-caps&quot;&gt;♦Ian&lt;span style=&quot;background:#99c&quot;&gt;Ma&lt;span style=&quot;background:#aad&quot;&gt;c&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;M♦&lt;/span&gt;]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:ianmacm|(talk to me)]]&lt;/sup&gt;''''' 15:52, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :*And that lends to a YES. Nobody is saying that the attack was an ISIS attack, just that this attack was an Islamist terror attack. [[User:Sir Joseph|Sir Joseph]] &lt;sup&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;Green&quot;&gt;[[User_talk:Sir Joseph|(talk)]]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/sup&gt; 16:02, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :*I don't think the your second point is actually in dispute. No one is suggesting that ISIS had prior knowledge of this attack, or that it was planned in any way by ISIS. [[User:Brianbleakley|Brianbleakley]] ([[User talk:Brianbleakley|talk]]) 16:06, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :*What difference would it make if ISIL didn't know about him? How does that make it *not* a terrorist attack committed by an Islamist? [[User:Vektor00|Vektor00]] ([[User talk:Vektor00|talk]]) 16:18, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> * '''Yes.''' Regardless of Mateen's formal affiliation with any Islamist groups, during hostage negotiations he described himself as a &quot;soldier of Islam.&quot; If Wikipedia wants to define &quot;Islamist&quot; to not mean all &quot;Islamist extremists&quot;, as it currently is, then fine, but Mateen was an extremist acting in the name of Islam (regardless of what his &quot;true&quot; motivations were). [[User:JoshuaKGarner|Joshua Garner]] ([[User talk:JoshuaKGarner|talk]]) 16:39, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> * ''''Yes.'''' One does not need a &quot;Soldier Of Allah&quot; card in order to be a jihadist. The probable fact that he was self-deployed rather than formally allied with ISIL does not lessen the Islamist aspect of his act of terrorism. [[User:The Sanity Inspector|The Sanity Inspector]] ([[User talk:The Sanity Inspector|talk]]) 16:48, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> * '''Yes''': Strong support in sources. Attempts to introduce the spurious standard of affiliation with and/or direction from a recognized terrorist organization is OR, and disingenuous. [[User:D.Creish|D.Creish]] ([[User talk:D.Creish|talk]]) 17:04, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> * ''''Yes.'''' Agreeing with all above &quot;yes&quot; reasons while also mentioning that the FBI has found no evidence Mateen was gay. http://www.nola.com/crime/index.ssf/2016/06/orlando_shooter_gay_omar_matee.html &lt;!-- Template:Unsigned --&gt;&lt;small&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—&amp;nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Marquis de Faux |Marquis de Faux ]] ([[User talk:Marquis de Faux |talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Marquis de Faux |contribs]]) 17:15, 30 June 2016&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/small&gt;<br /> *'''Strong Yes.''': He declared his support for ISIS during the attack. Quote from Mateen: &quot;“America and Russia stop bombing the Islamic state..I pledge my alliance to [Islamic State leader] abu bakr al Baghdadi ..may Allah accept me,” -- No evidence found that he was even gay. https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/investigation-into-orlando-shooting-continues-no-impending-charges-expected/2016/06/15/c3eccf5e-3333-11e6-8758-d58e76e11b12_story.html<br /> *'''Yes''' That the shooter may have had other motivations does not outweigh explicit declarations of allegiance to Islamist causes committed in an act of terror. The debate about whether the incident was a hate crime or terrorism strikes me as rather silly—it's quite clearly both. --[[User:BDD|BDD]] ([[User talk:BDD|talk]]) 17:34, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> * ''''Yes.'''' Given all information available from media and police sources, refusal to include this attack in the list is highly suspect, and reduces confidence in the impartiality of the site. Thou doth protest too much. [[User:Tim Riches|Tim Riches, Mississauga, Ontario]] ([[User talk:Tim Riches|talk]]) 17:39, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::{{User:EvergreenFir/Zombie|Tim Riches|7 months}} [[User:EvergreenFir|'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:#8b00ff;&quot;&gt;Eve&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#6528c2;&quot;&gt;rgr&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#3f5184;&quot;&gt;een&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#197947;&quot;&gt;Fir&lt;/span&gt;''']] [[User talk:EvergreenFir|(talk)]] &lt;small&gt;Please &amp;#123;&amp;#123;[[Template:re|re]]&amp;#125;&amp;#125;&lt;/small&gt; 00:23, 1 July 2016 (UTC) <br /> * ''''Emphatic Yes'''' This was clearly an attack motivated by and perpetrated by a fundamentalist Islamic agenda. If its in line with true Islamic beliefs or not, if it was coordinated with ISIS/ISIL/Daesh are irrelevant, Mateen believed he was acting within those confines. [[User:AdamJacobMuller|AdamJacobMuller]] ([[User talk:AdamJacobMuller|talk]]) 18:22, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::{{User:EvergreenFir/Zombie|AdamJacobMuller|4 years 10 months}} [[User:EvergreenFir|'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:#8b00ff;&quot;&gt;Eve&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#6528c2;&quot;&gt;rgr&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#3f5184;&quot;&gt;een&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#197947;&quot;&gt;Fir&lt;/span&gt;''']] [[User talk:EvergreenFir|(talk)]] &lt;small&gt;Please &amp;#123;&amp;#123;[[Template:re|re]]&amp;#125;&amp;#125;&lt;/small&gt; 00:23, 1 July 2016 (UTC) <br /> :::: Not sure if this is just an automated bot, or whatever, but I'm obviously not a sock-puppet. I have a long history on Wikipedia (much longer than my absence which is primarily due to simply not having time to edit wikipedia anymore) and I obviously continue to use it extensively just not editing anymore. Moreover I'm using my real name for my account. I simply saw this issue and felt it was important enough to comment on as I would like Wikipedia to continue to be an agenda-free source of information. [[User:AdamJacobMuller|AdamJacobMuller]] ([[User talk:AdamJacobMuller|talk]]) 03:44, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> * '''Strong yes''' Until more evidence is released it is impossible to say whether this was an ISIL attack directed by the organization, however it is beyond doubt that, given the released statements made by the shooter during the attack, this was motivated by Islamism. The [[Charleston church shooting]] is currently in the category ''White supremacy in the United States'' despite the perpetrator having had no formal links to white supremacist groups. The motive was determined via consulting his manifesto and circumstantial evidence about which websites he had visited. The article itself features statements that cast doubt over the white supremacist element of the attack -- ''&quot;I don't think the church was his primary target because he told us he was going for the school. But I think he couldn't get into the school because of the security ... so I think he just settled for the church.&quot;'' Mateen's manifesto was transmitted via phone calls and the transcript features numerous mentions of Islamism and ideas frequently expressed by groups that are clearly Islamist. He then pledges allegiance to ISIL, a group that is widely recognized as committing violence in the name of its heretical brand of Islam. If we're going to cast aspersions over one manifesto, then it would only seem unbiased to call the motive on the other attack suspect, too. As far as I am aware, the assailant knows the motive for his own attack and in this case the authorities themselves have released evidence that Mateen's motive was Islamist in nature. --[[User:Toomanyaccountsargh|Toomanyaccountsargh]] ([[User talk:Toomanyaccountsargh|talk]]) 18:54, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> * ''''Yes'''' Back in 2013 he made inflammatory comments about radical islam to his colleagues. http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/orlando-nightclub-massacre/terror-hate-what-motivated-orlando-nightclub-shooter-n590496 [[User:Fangfufu|Fangfufu]] ([[User talk:Fangfufu|talk]]) 18:56, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> * ''''Strong Yes'''' A man claims to be an Islamic soldier. Kills people while claiming his support for Islamic terrorist groups. Somehow this isn't islamic terrorism. What the absolute hell is wrong with the world when you look at a duck and call it a chicken? [[User:Sethyre|Sethyre]] ([[User talk:Sethyre|talk]]) 19:03, 30 June 2016 (UTC) <br /> * '''Yes''' Even IF the shooter also had homophobic motives, does NOT suddenly make his public allegiance to ISIS void. The simple fact is that he claimed a clear as can be a connection to an Islamic terrorist group, and that that group also acknowledged him as 'one of theirs'. It is bizarre that some Wikipedians are trying to fall back on 'no reliable sources', when everyone knows full well that it is purely a matter of time before 'reliable sources' will acknowledge that this fits the criteria for a Islamist terrorist attack. The fact that this attack could also fit the criteria for a different kind of (lone wolf) terrorism does not matter one bit. It does not suddenly invalidate the ISIS connections. It simply makes the situation more complex. But it HAS to be listed as an Islamist terrorist attack as well. [[User:Omegastar|Omegastar]] ([[User talk:Omegastar|talk]]) 19:35, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> * '''Strong Yes''' There is insufficient evidence to state that it was an ISIS attack, but there is sufficient evidence to state it was an Islamist terrorist attack. The shooter specifically stated on a 911 call during the shootings that he pledged allegiance to Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi of the Islamic State, and made multiple other references to Islam. [[User:Patpend|Patpend]] ([[User talk:Patpend|talk]]) 19:42, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::{{User:EvergreenFir/Zombie|Patpend|6 months}} [[User:EvergreenFir|'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:#8b00ff;&quot;&gt;Eve&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#6528c2;&quot;&gt;rgr&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#3f5184;&quot;&gt;een&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#197947;&quot;&gt;Fir&lt;/span&gt;''']] [[User talk:EvergreenFir|(talk)]] &lt;small&gt;Please &amp;#123;&amp;#123;[[Template:re|re]]&amp;#125;&amp;#125;&lt;/small&gt; 00:23, 1 July 2016 (UTC) <br /> * '''Strong yes''': The attacker swore his allegiance to the [[Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant|Islamic State]]. There is little doubt, based on [[RS]]-provided evidence, that he had some sort of religious-linked political motivations. However, these doubts are not relevant to the criteria outlined for this article. [[User:NuclearWizard|Nuke]] ([[User talk:NuclearWizard|talk]]) 19:50, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> * '''Yes''' for reasons stated by others. Mateen declared Islamic motives and whether he was motivated by homophobia and/or self-hatred is ultimately irrelevant. --[[User:DrCruse|DrCruse]] ([[User talk:DrCruse|talk]]) 19:54, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> *''''Strong Yes'''' There has been no evidence of homosexual tendencies by Omar Mateen. The FBI has said that it has found nothing to show that Mateen was on gay dating apps with any of the 20 email addresses they had for him and consider the claim of a man having participated in homosexual activities with Mateen to not be credible. That combined with his pledge of allegiance to ISIS should be enough. If the shooter had called the police and and said he was Napoleon, obviously no one would blame the French, but if the shooter had pledged his allegiance to Hitler's ideals or said he was committing these acts in the name of God there would be no dispute of whether or not the attack was a white supremacist or a Christian extremist attack, respectively. We wouldn't say that we have to prove he was either a member of the SS or a Catholic priest in order to call it what it is. Why is Islamic extremism treated differently? &lt;ref&gt;http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/26/us/was-the-orlando-gunman-gay-the-answer-continues-to-elude-the-fbi.html?_r=0&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-orlando-gay-fbi-20160623-snap-story.html&lt;/ref&gt;<br /> * '''Strong Yes''': Wikipedia is not a place to argue what should be included in history, it is to document it. The attacker was Islamic and this was a terrorist attack. It passes the logic of being an Islamist terrorist attack at face value. I count at least 20 other attacks done by similar &quot;lone&quot; attackers on this list that do not have definite ties to a RS approved Islamist Terrorist organization. If this attack is not included, editors MUST remove those other attacks. Which is obviously obsurd. The fact that there is this much discussion is a reminder to the Wikipedia community that it is under attack by bad actors trying to rewrite history. We can not stand for this as unbiased editors. [[User:Iksnyrk|Iksnyrk]] ([[User talk:Iksnyrk|talk]]) 20:03, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> *'''Obvious Yes''' The sourcing is quite clear. [[User:Arkon|Arkon]] ([[User talk:Arkon|talk]]) 20:06, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> * '''Strong Yes''': I am disappointed by some of the arguments here from what sound like very smart people. The list is titled &quot;List of Islamist terrorist attacks,&quot; not &quot;List of ISIL terrorist attacks.&quot; Similarly, when you look at Christian terrorism like the Wisconsin Sikh Temple massacre, I would label it as such even though the Catholic Church or Southern Baptist Convention or the United Methodist Church neither ordered nor condoned the attacks. No religion can boast a perfect record, and as such, each needs to be called out on the issues when an attack is inspired by its ideology. True, homophobia was clearly a factor in Mateen's motive; each Abrahamic faith condemns homosexuality to some degree of another (Leviticus 20:13, Abu Dawud 4462). Furthermore, as a Christian, I see the church constantly struggle with these matters, as I have wrestled them in my own mind as well. Mateen is definitively a virulent homophobe according to his father's words; however, he was also driven by an ideology that necessitates the killing of homosexuals, among other groups. Many other arguments of mine have been enumerated here, and as such I will conclude by saying this: when we refuse to call an apple an apple, we run the risk of permitting what Orwell termed &quot;the ministry of truth.&quot; [[User:Jrcoyne99|Jrcoyne99]] ([[User talk:Jrcoyne99|talk]]) 20:07, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::{{spa|Jrcoyne99}} [[User:EvergreenFir|'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:#8b00ff;&quot;&gt;Eve&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#6528c2;&quot;&gt;rgr&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#3f5184;&quot;&gt;een&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#197947;&quot;&gt;Fir&lt;/span&gt;''']] [[User talk:EvergreenFir|(talk)]] &lt;small&gt;Please &amp;#123;&amp;#123;[[Template:re|re]]&amp;#125;&amp;#125;&lt;/small&gt; 00:17, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::: Just for the record, I have contributed to other articles before including historical topics, politics, and science fiction. I created an account specifically for this discussion. Also, someone's argument or point of view is not invalidated simply because expressing it is their first acti or one of few on the platform. It's just that for some of us this is an important matter. [[User:Jrcoyne99|Jrcoyne99]] ([[User talk:Jrcoyne99|talk]]) 02:27, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> * '''Yes''' For reasons already stated above. &lt;span style=&quot;background:#FF0000;font-type Monotype Corsiva&quot;&gt;[[User:Tills|&lt;font color=&quot;#FFFFFF&quot;&gt;Tills&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;background:#0000FF;font: Monotype Corsiva&quot;&gt;[[User_talk:Tills|&lt;font color=&quot;#FFFFFF&quot;&gt;Talk&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 20:25, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::{{User:EvergreenFir/Zombie|Tills|11 months}} [[User:EvergreenFir|'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:#8b00ff;&quot;&gt;Eve&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#6528c2;&quot;&gt;rgr&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#3f5184;&quot;&gt;een&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#197947;&quot;&gt;Fir&lt;/span&gt;''']] [[User talk:EvergreenFir|(talk)]] &lt;small&gt;Please &amp;#123;&amp;#123;[[Template:re|re]]&amp;#125;&amp;#125;&lt;/small&gt; 00:17, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::So what's the purpose for posting this? Is my opinion not relevant since I'm no longer an active editor? &lt;span style=&quot;background:#FF0000;font-type Monotype Corsiva&quot;&gt;[[User:Tills|&lt;font color=&quot;#FFFFFF&quot;&gt;Tills&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;background:#0000FF;font: Monotype Corsiva&quot;&gt;[[User_talk:Tills|&lt;font color=&quot;#FFFFFF&quot;&gt;Talk&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 05:56, 1 July 2016 (UTC) <br /> :::::It's the same as marking [[WP:SPA]]s. Given the canvassing occurring via Breitbart, such info can be useful to the closing admin when considering comments. [[User:EvergreenFir|'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:#8b00ff;&quot;&gt;Eve&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#6528c2;&quot;&gt;rgr&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#3f5184;&quot;&gt;een&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#197947;&quot;&gt;Fir&lt;/span&gt;''']] [[User talk:EvergreenFir|(talk)]] &lt;small&gt;Please &amp;#123;&amp;#123;[[Template:re|re]]&amp;#125;&amp;#125;&lt;/small&gt; 06:01, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> * '''Yes''' The list consist of terror attacks committed by Islamic extremists. Omar was an Islamic extremist, so surely the event should be added to the list. [[User:CoverMyIP|CoverMyIP]] ([[User talk:CoverMyIP|talk]]) 20:34, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::{{User:EvergreenFir/Zombie|CoverMyIP|8 months}} [[User:EvergreenFir|'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:#8b00ff;&quot;&gt;Eve&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#6528c2;&quot;&gt;rgr&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#3f5184;&quot;&gt;een&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#197947;&quot;&gt;Fir&lt;/span&gt;''']] [[User talk:EvergreenFir|(talk)]] &lt;small&gt;Please &amp;#123;&amp;#123;[[Template:re|re]]&amp;#125;&amp;#125;&lt;/small&gt; 00:17, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> * '''Strong Yes''' I believe the shooter himself qualifies as an RS, and he made his motivation for the attack clear in his public statements. It is not for us to second-guess his motivation. [[User:AlanSiegrist|AlanSiegrist]] ([[User talk:AlanSiegrist|talk]]) 20:54, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> * '''Strong Yes''': This clearly meets all criteria and there are countless sources. [[User:Singleiron|Singleiron]] ([[User talk:Singleiron|talk]]) 21:25, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::{{User:EvergreenFir/Zombie|Singleiron|7 months}} [[User:EvergreenFir|'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:#8b00ff;&quot;&gt;Eve&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#6528c2;&quot;&gt;rgr&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#3f5184;&quot;&gt;een&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#197947;&quot;&gt;Fir&lt;/span&gt;''']] [[User talk:EvergreenFir|(talk)]] &lt;small&gt;Please &amp;#123;&amp;#123;[[Template:re|re]]&amp;#125;&amp;#125;&lt;/small&gt; 00:23, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> * '''Yes''' - Meets the criteria for inclusion: It has been widely reported as a terrorist attack, the perpetrator [https://www.fbi.gov/tampa/press-releases/2016/investigative-update-regarding-pulse-nightclub-shooting identified himself as an Islamic soldier] to ''further a perceived Islamic religious or political cause'' (tell America to stop bombing Syria and Iraq and that is why he was “out here right now.”)--[[User:Isaidnoway|&lt;font face=&quot;Times New Roman&quot; color=&quot;blue&quot;&gt; '''''Isaidnoway''''' &lt;/font&gt;]][[User talk:Isaidnoway|&lt;font face=&quot;Times New Roman&quot; color=&quot;blue&quot;&gt;'''''(talk)'''''&lt;/font&gt;]] 21:26, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> *'''No'''. Imputing &quot;Islamic motivation&quot; to the Orlando shooter reminds me of the semi-hysterical tendency in the 1950s and 1960s to attribute all kinds of problems to Communist subversion. Comment below. ~ [[User:J. Johnson|J.&amp;nbsp;Johnson (JJ)]] ([[User_talk:J. Johnson#top|talk]]) 22:32, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> * '''Strong Yes''': I can't believe this is up for debate. Strong yes in agreement with all others' arguments. &lt;!-- Template:Unsigned --&gt;&lt;small&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—&amp;nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:24.164.94.198|24.164.94.198]] ([[User talk:24.164.94.198|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/24.164.94.198|contribs]]) &lt;/span&gt;&lt;/small&gt;<br /> * '''Yes''': We have multiple reliable sources which state that he pledged his allegiance to ISIS (an Islamist terrorist group) and mentioned the Boston Marathon bombers in a phone call to authorities. It was a terrorist attack, again as attested by multiple reliable sources, including the US government (President Obama himself called it such). It meets all the criteria for inclusion on this list. [[user:Titanium Dragon|&lt;span style=&quot;background-color:{{ trim | silver }}; color:{{ trim | }};&quot;&gt;{{ trim | '''Titanium Dragon''' }}&lt;/span&gt;]] ([[user talk:Titanium Dragon|talk]]) 23:40, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> *:{{ping|Titanium Dragon}} The title of this article is not [[List of terrorist attacks]]. If the US government or Obama have unequivocally labeled Orlando an Islamic terrorist attack, could you provide a link to that? &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#AAA;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 23:57, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> *::{{ping|Mandruss}}: &quot;So whatever the motivations of the killer, whatever influences led him down the path of violence and terror, whatever propaganda he was consuming from ISIL and al Qaeda, this was an act of terrorism but it was also an act of hate.&quot; Per [http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2016/06/19/lynch_partial_transcript_of_orlando_911_calls_will_have_references_to_isis_cut_out.html]. Obama does not use the term Islamist in relation to ISIS/ISIL/Islamic State or Al Qaeda for propaganda reasons, as he has noted previously: &quot;We are not at war with Islam. We are at war with people who have perverted Islam,&quot; Obama said during remarks at a summit on combating violent extremism in February. &quot;These terrorists are desperate for legitimacy. And all of us have a responsibility to refute the notion that groups like ISIL somehow represent Islam, because that is a falsehood that embraces the terrorist narrative.&quot; Per [http://www.cnn.com/2016/06/13/politics/islamic-terrorism-trump-obama-clinton/]. However, ISIS and Al Qaeda are undoubtedly Islamist groups, and are defined as such by Wikipedia and innumerable sources, and he himself acknowledges it as a perversion of Islam. Given that the perpetrator declared his allegiance to the Islamic State, and the attacks were driven by his Islamist beliefs, as supported by many sources provided, including the FBI's own transcript of the call, there's really no room for doubt from the RSs. [[user:Titanium Dragon|&lt;span style=&quot;background-color:{{ trim | silver }}; color:{{ trim | }};&quot;&gt;{{ trim | '''Titanium Dragon''' }}&lt;/span&gt;]] ([[user talk:Titanium Dragon|talk]]) 01:56, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> * '''Strong Yes''' The FBI, CNN, and CBS all stated the same thing. End of discussion. [[User:R00b07|R00b07]] ([[User talk:R00b07|talk]]) 23:42, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> *'''Yes''' Mateen clearly was an Islamist terrorist and stated as much in his 911 call. His support of other islamist terror is well established in reliable sources. His association with ISIL is more questionable but his islamist terror connection is not. Self-radicalized terrorism is still terrorism. --[[User:DHeyward|DHeyward]] ([[User talk:DHeyward|talk]]) 23:50, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> *'''No'''. Maybe he was gay. Maybe he was just a schizophrenic who escaped everyone's notice until it was too late. Maybe he actually was a jihadist. But on something this raw, something so high-profile, something being used as political ammunition so readily by non-victims, it seems imprudent to slap an &quot;Islamist terrorist attack&quot; tag on it and call it a day when errors in reporting tend to be accompanied by widely-ignored and slightly discreet retractions, if there are any at all. And since we are the 'de facto' source for so much of the English-speaking world, it is imperative that we make no mistake on the accuracy of this. There is no [[WP:DEADLINE]]. I urge that it be not added, as if it is added in error, more people stand to lose, to be hurt, to be discriminated against, than if it were to be added later, when the smoke has cleared and tempers cooled, without error, if at all. &lt;font face=&quot;#&quot; color=&quot;#35b794&quot;&gt;[[User:Dschslava|'''Dsch'''slava]]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;#3558b7&quot;&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contribs/Dschslava|'' Δx '']]&lt;/sup&gt;[[User talk:Dschslava|parlez moi]]&lt;/font&gt; 00:05, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> **Why stop with your speculation there? Maybe he was angry about the Treaty of Ghent, or the cancellation of Firefly. Who can say? If we're willing to go so far as to ignore the terrorist's ''own statements on the matter'', we might as well just make up anything we please. [[Special:Contributions/2601:602:9802:99B2:F1DB:D95B:C7B2:2EE0|2601:602:9802:99B2:F1DB:D95B:C7B2:2EE0]] ([[User talk:2601:602:9802:99B2:F1DB:D95B:C7B2:2EE0|talk]]) 04:55, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> **Then we should probably rename the page to &quot;List of Islamist terrorist attacks by clinically-sane heterosexuals.&quot; What difference does it make if he was gay or schizophrenic? He's still an Islamist, he still committed an act of terror, so doesn't that make the shooting an Islamist terror attack? The term &quot;Islamist terrorist attack&quot; is the most accurate term we could possibly use to describe this event, and it really seems like you're saying we should put a hypothetical person's feelings above factual accuracy. [[User:Vektor00|Vektor00]] ([[User talk:Vektor00|talk]]) 03:04, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::I'll reply to both of the IPs' comments here, for brevity's sake. I never said that it should never be added. I never said that it should either. The key part of my reasoning is {{tq|I urge that it be not added, as if it is added in error, more people stand to lose, to be hurt, to be discriminated against, than if it were to be added later, '''when the smoke has cleared and tempers cooled''', without error, if at all}}. Seeing as the markedly increased activity present in part caused by certain media attention is certainly not working in anyone's favor, I'm advising that we leave it alone for now and come back later when, say, all this furor has dissipated. To do otherwise could cause even more media attention, resulting in scores more flocking to this RfC with politically motivated reasons blatant and not-so-blatant, which is the exact opposite of what we want. Look at the problems that we are facing right now, in comparison. &lt;font face=&quot;#&quot; color=&quot;#35b794&quot;&gt;[[User:Dschslava|'''Dsch'''slava]]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;#3558b7&quot;&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contribs/Dschslava|'' Δx '']]&lt;/sup&gt;[[User talk:Dschslava|parlez moi]]&lt;/font&gt; 06:38, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::: &quot;I urge that it be not added, as if it is added in error, more people stand to lose, to be hurt, to be discriminated against, than if it were to be added later, when the smoke has cleared and tempers cooled&quot; The purpose of Wikipedia is not to eliminate discrimination or protect people's feelings, noble as those causes are; the purpose of Wikipedia is to disseminate accurate information. Whether or not such accurate information causes discrimination or hurt is completely irrelevant. [[Special:Contributions/2601:602:9802:99B2:F1DB:D95B:C7B2:2EE0|2601:602:9802:99B2:F1DB:D95B:C7B2:2EE0]] ([[User talk:2601:602:9802:99B2:F1DB:D95B:C7B2:2EE0|talk]]) 06:47, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::::I am fully aware of that. Perhaps I shouldn't have included that part; it's not really part of my argument anyways. The bolded part, however, is. This is a huge mess, and I have half a mind to file another ANI thread while at it. Who knows, maybe we'll all be dragged to ARBCOM. &lt;font face=&quot;#&quot; color=&quot;#35b794&quot;&gt;[[User:Dschslava|'''Dsch'''slava]]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;#3558b7&quot;&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contribs/Dschslava|'' Δx '']]&lt;/sup&gt;[[User talk:Dschslava|parlez moi]]&lt;/font&gt; 07:03, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> ** Since he pledged allegiance to ISIS, how about we look at that as a small, minor, potential motivation for killing 50 gay people? Maybe, just maybe? [[User:R00b07|R00b07]] ([[User talk:R00b07|talk]]) 00:23, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::{{u|Rb00b7}}, I'm very sure that I addressed that in my original !vote already. &lt;font face=&quot;#&quot; color=&quot;#35b794&quot;&gt;[[User:Dschslava|'''Dsch'''slava]]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;#3558b7&quot;&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contribs/Dschslava|'' Δx '']]&lt;/sup&gt;[[User talk:Dschslava|parlez moi]]&lt;/font&gt; 00:38, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::: Rb00b7? That is the most subtle insult ever. [[User:R00b07|R00b07]] ([[User talk:R00b07|talk]]) 01:43, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::::{{u|R00b07}}, I'm sorry. My eyes got crossed with those number-letter lookalikes. No harm intended. Actually, how about [[WP:AGF]], seeing as you espouse it so prominently on your userpage? &lt;font face=&quot;#&quot; color=&quot;#35b794&quot;&gt;[[User:Dschslava|'''Dsch'''slava]]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;#3558b7&quot;&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contribs/Dschslava|'' Δx '']]&lt;/sup&gt;[[User talk:Dschslava|parlez moi]]&lt;/font&gt; 04:59, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::::::: I was assuming Good Faith, just making a bad joke. Sorry [[User:R00b07|R00b07]] ([[User talk:R00b07|talk]]) 06:04, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> *'''Yes''' I can't believe we're even arguing this. --[[User:Harizotoh9|Harizotoh9]] ([[User talk:Harizotoh9|talk]]) 00:42, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> *'''Yes''' Mateen connected the attack to ISIS. (Of course there are also other dimensions.) [[User:Jason from nyc|Jason from nyc]] ([[User talk:Jason from nyc|talk]]) 02:08, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> *'''Yes''': I tend not to get involved in political arguments, as pop culture and other less-sensitive subjects are more my specialty. However, with the evidence available at the present time from credible sources, I find that it is fairly clear that the Orlando attack should be included in the list. Of course, Islamic terrorism may not have been the sole cause for the attack, but it certainly appears to have been an ingredient. --'''&lt;span style=&quot;background-color:white;color:#2929EE;&quot;&gt; Matthew&lt;/span&gt;''' - ([[User_talk:MatthewHoobin|talk]] · [[User:MatthewHoobin|userpage]] · [[Special:Contributions/MatthewHoobin|contributions]]) 05:49, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> * '''Strong Yes''': Not only do we have the killer's own statement, but cited sources from the FBI, CNN and a ton of other places that overwhelmingly qualify as WP:RS. This attack has more reliable sources supporting this claim than pretty much any other attack on this list. The fact that this is even up for debate is asinine and shows a ridiculous bias by some editors here seemingly desperate to defend the good name of Islamic terrorism. --[[User:TheTruthiness|TheTruthiness]] ([[User talk:TheTruthiness|talk]]) 07:55, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> * '''Strong Yes''': For reasons cited by others. Briefly, killer cited allegiance to ISIS but more importantly, but more importantly, the entity in question has an explicit policy of encouraging and inciting such individual actions and has, similarly, explicitly taken credit. [[User:Muldrake|Muldrake]] ([[User talk:Muldrake|talk]]) <br /> *'''Yes''' per sourced statements from FBI and others. Really a no brainer here. [[User:Mr Ernie|Mr Ernie]] ([[User talk:Mr Ernie|talk]]) 12:28, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> *'''Yes''' If the FBI and CNN says so. They are reliable sources. [[User:Supergodzilla2090|Supergodzilla2090]] ([[User talk:Supergodzilla2090|talk]]) 18:03, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> * '''Strong Yes''': A muslim man shot up a nightclub under the pretense of Radical Islam. ISIL later took credit for it. Who cares if it was carried out on ISIL's instruction or not? ISIL has sent messages to Extremists in the US and other western countries to continue carrying out LONE WOLF attacks. ISIL can't personally endorse each and every attempted bombing. They only take credit once the deed is done. The Orlando shooting was one of these encouraged lone wolf attacks, and while ISIL didn't plan it, they certainly took credit. Stop this PC nonsense. You are disrespecting the deceased victims names if you call this anything other than what it really is: Islamic Terror. [[User:Battlefront228|Battlefront228]] ([[User talk:Battlefront228|talk]]) 19:39, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ====Call for [[WP:SNOW]] close====<br /> Could someone (preferably someone with experience closing contentious RfCs and no strong feeling on the issue at hand) please apply [[WP:SNOW]] and close this RfC? --[[User:Guy Macon|Guy Macon]] ([[User talk:Guy Macon|talk]]) 22:46, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :There is no SNOW here. Articulate arguments have been made on both sides. &lt;s&gt;That said, consensus is not about numbers, and I can't imagine that there are any significant new arguments to be made, so I wouldn't oppose an early close.&lt;/s&gt; &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#AAA;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 22:54, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::Agree. {{U|Guy Macon}}, this got flooded by Breitbart readers. Just because a ton of people showed up today to !vote yes doesn't mean there's consensus. [[User:EvergreenFir|'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:#8b00ff;&quot;&gt;Eve&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#6528c2;&quot;&gt;rgr&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#3f5184;&quot;&gt;een&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#197947;&quot;&gt;Fir&lt;/span&gt;''']] [[User talk:EvergreenFir|(talk)]] &lt;small&gt;Please &amp;#123;&amp;#123;[[Template:re|re]]&amp;#125;&amp;#125;&lt;/small&gt; 23:18, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::(edit conflict) This is not a [[WP:SNOW]], and even less so because there are serious [[WP:CANVASSING]] issues raised by the Breitbart article, and the fact that this seems to have blown up with new and dormant accounts after it was published. <br /> ::I would oppose an early close. I don't care which way it goes, but I think it's a serious [[WP:POV]] issue to rush to a conclusion after another website makes a decision on what they think WP should say, and apparently sends a mob here. It's not going to be the end of the world if this sits for a day or two. [[User:Timothyjosephwood|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#a56d3f;font-family:Impact;&quot;&gt;Timothy&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#6f3800;font-family:Impact;&quot;&gt;Joseph&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#422501;font-family:Impact;&quot;&gt;Wood&lt;/span&gt;]] 23:23, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::Withdraw my non-opposition to early close, pending a resolution at [[Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard#More eyes on List of Islamist terrorist attacks]]. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#AAA;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 23:31, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :We don't run an RfC for 8 days, and then quickly close the RfC after multiple sleeper accounts have been canvased by a radical right wing blog. - [[user: MrX|Mr]][[user talk:MrX|X]] 23:30, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::Agreed. Just like we didn't close it even earlier when more of the radical left wings were saying no. We let it run it's course like most RfC's. [[User:Fyunck(click)|Fyunck(click)]] ([[User talk:Fyunck(click)|talk]]) 00:44, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::Staying open simply to accumulate more &quot;me too&quot; !votes is counter to the principle that consensus is not about numbers. If you can show evidence that a large number of &quot;radical left wing&quot; !votes are from single-purpose accounts solicited from off-wiki, please do. Barring that, you have presented a false equivalence. Anyway, if it's true that it's not about numbers, I don't know that the Breitbart invasion can do much damage. Hopefully the closer will have the wisdom to look beyond the numbers and, to the extent they consider them at all, will also look at the !voters' contribs. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#AAA;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 01:01, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::I'd say there's little hope in gauging a consensus until the sleepers go back to sleep. I wouldn't even bother arguing the point until tomorrow. Partisan arguments will only encourage those brought here for partisan reasons. [[User:Timothyjosephwood|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#a56d3f;font-family:Impact;&quot;&gt;Timothy&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#6f3800;font-family:Impact;&quot;&gt;Joseph&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#422501;font-family:Impact;&quot;&gt;Wood&lt;/span&gt;]] 01:44, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::::::Those that are here for partisan reasons were here before the article even came out. In my opinion, that's why the articles were written in the first place. [[User:R00b07|R00b07]] ([[User talk:R00b07|talk]]) 01:48, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::::The accounts you dismiss as &quot;sleepers&quot; appear to be more cognizant—or more able to find sources for their arguments—than many of the no voters, who have relied upon now superseded evidence about &quot;gay lovers&quot; and a particularly bizarre argument about aliens. That users are attempting to blithely dismiss the ''yes'' cohort as &quot;canvased by radical right wing blog&quot; seems to suggest a number of accounts on the ''no'' side have an agenda just as transparent. As far as I'm concerned, any doubts over motive could have been mentioned in the description of the attack, and if the no vote succeeds then there will appear to be a false consensus, which will be argued over endlessly by users citing a significant number of quality sources to support the inclusion of the attack. --[[User:Toomanyaccountsargh|Toomanyaccountsargh]] ([[User talk:Toomanyaccountsargh|talk]]) 05:49, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::::It's funny you should mention that; I took the time to go back through the entire RFC (and indeed this talk page X_x) to examine the argument from the side of the nays - and except for some quotes from MrX in an early statement above there actually isn't a single linked piece of evidence from any RS to rebut the statement &quot;The Orlando shooting was a terrorist display of Islamic Fundamentalism.&quot; The quotes from MrX are wrong in twofold; one from early in the case when information was scarce and motivation unclear, and another stating that Mateen was not a full member of a terror organization - which while apparently true does not mean this wasn't a Islamist terror attack (you don't need to join ISIL to kill for Islam). Every single other argument I can find is either completely OR or a statement of neutrality or confusion over motivations, quote possibly due to editors not having read the new official FBI information. Just to sum this up cogently; there isn't a single Wiki-essentials based argument as to the nays here, and very much many for the ayes with all the requisite sources and weight. EDIT: Or rather, no '''new''' information to rebut the ayes. There's plenty of older articles and sources that ponder and report on several rumors and fallacies that have been stated officially by the FBI as false as of this point, which I don't feel bear repeating or applying due to the new given information - unless someone wants to make a case that the original rumor mills are more reliable and weighty then the recent official FBI releases and the news coverage thereof? [[Special:Contributions/69.114.53.16|69.114.53.16]] ([[User talk:69.114.53.16|talk]]) 06:22, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> There is only one way this RfC is going to turn out. Better to cut the drama and close it right now. Even if you remove the &quot;sleepers&quot;, there are plenty of other Yes votes. [[User:Kingsindian|Kingsindian]]&amp;nbsp;[[User Talk: Kingsindian|&amp;#9821;]]&amp;nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Kingsindian|&amp;#9818;]] 07:18, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> :There is a risk that following Breitbart getting its panties in a bunch over this, the article is going to exactly what Omar Mateen wanted, which is to describe the work of a deranged loner who wanted attention as an Islamic terrorist attack.--'''''[[User:ianmacm|&lt;span style=&quot;background:#88b;color:#cff;font-variant:small-caps&quot;&gt;♦Ian&lt;span style=&quot;background:#99c&quot;&gt;Ma&lt;span style=&quot;background:#aad&quot;&gt;c&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;M♦&lt;/span&gt;]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:ianmacm|(talk to me)]]&lt;/sup&gt;''''' 07:24, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::See, I have a problem with that reasoning - it's completely unsubstantiated OR. There's no problem with editors believing that, but that's not a Wiki-appropriate argument towards nay (though it's been repeated a few times). Mateen himself, the FBI, news organizations reporting on the FBI findings and plenty of talking head quotes all agree that this was indeed an Islamist terrorist attack. Even regardless of whether or not Mateen wanted it as such, it still clearly fulfills those stipulations both as an event and as a Wikipedia article that should be listed here, due to weight and sources. It's been great that people were protecting this page when everything was fuzzy as I said below (this is 69.114.53.16, bit the bullet made an account) but clearly things have changed. To continue and deny this to be listed as an Islamist attack without several supporting RS's - following the new information beyond the rumor mills - would be very strange, in my opinion. [[User:SpeakerOfReason|SpeakerOfReason]] ([[User talk:SpeakerOfReason|talk]]) 07:38, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::As I've said over at [[Talk:2016 Orlando nightclub shooting]], many people are making the assumption that Mateen was of sound mind when he carried out the attack. He may or may not have been legally insane, but there are numerous reports that he was mentally unstable and had expressed hatred of gays etc. This makes the motive less clear cut than a straightforward terrorist attack. The problem with categories and lists is that they do not allow for any nuances and end up with a [[false dichotomy]] (black/white, yes/no) when things are more complicated than this simplistic version.--'''''[[User:ianmacm|&lt;span style=&quot;background:#88b;color:#cff;font-variant:small-caps&quot;&gt;♦Ian&lt;span style=&quot;background:#99c&quot;&gt;Ma&lt;span style=&quot;background:#aad&quot;&gt;c&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;M♦&lt;/span&gt;]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:ianmacm|(talk to me)]]&lt;/sup&gt;''''' 07:42, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::And I completely agree with everything you just said personally; the dismantling of our mental health care system and the silence of America on the topic is horrendous as a general point of information - but that doesn't apply to Wikipedia. I'm of the opinion that anyone who decides to bomb/shoot a crowd of people is most definitely not of sound mind; but not being all there mentally doesn't mean he wasn't doing it for Islam as well. Having mental health issues and being a terrorist aren't mutually exclusive, and while reports speaking of his mental health are also important information there's a huge amount of weight of sources also claiming as fact that he was an Islamist terrorist. Almost nothing in life is straightforward, and the same could be said about any bomber/shooter on this list as well as Mateen. None of this precludes the Orlando shooting from being added to this list, and anyone who reads that article (whether found through the list or otherwise) will be able to attain the more detailed information that surrounds it. Speaking of working on the Orlando article, I don't know if the sources quoted all around were actually taken from the Orlando page or if they're new but all the stuff linked around would be helpful to mine for it, if they weren't there already - just in case anyone was interested and hadn't considered it. [[User:SpeakerOfReason|SpeakerOfReason]] ([[User talk:SpeakerOfReason|talk]]) 07:56, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::While RS is essential, it is not everything. [[WP:ONUS]]: ''While information must be verifiable in order to be included in an article, this does not mean that all verifiable information must be included in an article. Consensus may determine that certain information does not improve an article, and that it should be omitted or presented instead in a different article.'' I'd suggest that the yeas stop implying that nays, established editors in good standing, are policy-ignorant bozos and/or POV zealots. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#AAA;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 07:57, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::No, I've totally been on your side in regards to protecting the article (and never did/meant to call anyone a POV zealot - unless you aren't referring to me?), but things have changed with more recent information - specifically the FBI statements and news/talking head coverage of. [[WP:DUE]] and [[WP:WEIGHT]], and I'd say the weight of discussion here and the due of the new information makes it pretty clear this is information starkly relevant and necessary for the article regarding it - the side effect of which ends up with the article being listed here, due to RS's attributing and confirming Islamist motivations. The fact that there is a large conflict of information at all from the rumor mills beforehand and the new information now is pretty important as well - I've said several times that that article is rife for a subsection specifically on that subject - but there's every reason (from onus, due, and weight) that the information should be included, and no Wikipedia reason it should not. [[User:SpeakerOfReason|SpeakerOfReason]] ([[User_talk:SpeakerOfReason|be gentle!]]) 08:27, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::::No, I wasn't referring to you. But I question the value of more circular discussion, which is accomplishing little but creating more for the closer to read. I've stated my argument as concisely as I can in my !vote (updating it as my thinking has crystalized), and I'm going to try to sit it out from here on. I wouldn't presume to insist that others do the same, but I hope most of them will. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#AAA;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 08:37, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::::I mean I totally understand your point of view on the matter with regards to how closely we define acts of terror in context with links to actual terror groups - I think if there's even the slightest reason why the Orlando shooting shouldn't be on this list, it would be yours - I just don't think we can quibble regarding the details when there's so many places in the new information where &quot;Islamic/Islamist Terrorist&quot; is confirmed by RS. I just don't agree completely with your point because this isn't a list of &quot;Official Terrorist Group Attacks&quot; but &quot;List of Islamist terrorist attacks&quot; and sole gunman/bombers (in that context) should qualify. [[User:SpeakerOfReason|SpeakerOfReason]] ([[User_talk:SpeakerOfReason|be gentle!]]) 08:46, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::::::I get it. I understand and respect your position. But the point of an RfC is to convince the closer, not each other. I have VERY rarely seen an editor change their mind as a result of RfC discussion, and the majority of those few times it was me. Ergo, extended discussion is largely a waste of time, and I've felt this way in every long RfC I've ever seen. We convince the closer, or not, mostly in our !votes and perhaps a bit of discussion immediately following them. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#AAA;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 08:55, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> * I support the call for a SNOW close. [[User:D.Creish|D.Creish]] ([[User talk:D.Creish|talk]]) 14:26, 1 July 2016 (UTC)f<br /> <br /> === Discussion ===<br /> See discussion [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:List_of_Islamist_terrorist_attacks#Orlando_shooting here]. Further comments can be added below. [[User:Kingsindian|Kingsindian]]&amp;nbsp;[[User Talk: Kingsindian|&amp;#9821;]]&amp;nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Kingsindian|&amp;#9818;]] 00:44, 23 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> I have left a message on the talk page [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:2016_Orlando_nightclub_shooting#RfC_input_welcomed here]. [[User:Kingsindian|Kingsindian]]&amp;nbsp;[[User Talk: Kingsindian|&amp;#9821;]]&amp;nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Kingsindian|&amp;#9818;]] 15:53, 23 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> *Comment - The info regarding Mateen's alleged lover is currently just a rumor and a claim made by one person (to the best of my knowledge). We cannot treat it as anything but that. Should investigators corroborate that he was indeed his lover, that would be different. But afaik, we don't have that corroboration yet. [[User:EvergreenFir|'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:#8b00ff;&quot;&gt;Eve&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#6528c2;&quot;&gt;rgr&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#3f5184;&quot;&gt;een&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#197947;&quot;&gt;Fir&lt;/span&gt;''']] [[User talk:EvergreenFir|(talk)]] &lt;small&gt;Please &amp;#123;&amp;#123;[[Template:re|re]]&amp;#125;&amp;#125;&lt;/small&gt; 16:24, 23 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> *:Right. It's about as credible as ISIL taking credit for the shooting.- [[user: MrX|Mr]][[user talk:MrX|X]] 01:47, 24 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::: A more cogent point I have yet to see regarding this travesty. Thank you, MrX. &lt;&gt; [[User:Alt lys er svunnet hen|Alt lys er svunnet hen]] ([[User talk:Alt lys er svunnet hen|talk]]) 08:51, 28 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::It is important to bear in mind that the authorities have had a significant rethink about the motives since the first 24 hours after the shooting. Immediately afterwards, it seemed plausible that this was a rerun of the Bataclan theatre shooting. While the Orlando shooting was similar in its style, Omar Mateen was a lot like previous U.S. mass shooters and may have added radical Islam into the mix after reading some online propaganda material. He may have been trying to big it up when all he really wanted was notoriety, like many previous mass shooters.--'''''[[User:ianmacm|&lt;span style=&quot;background:#88b;color:#cff;font-variant:small-caps&quot;&gt;♦Ian&lt;span style=&quot;background:#99c&quot;&gt;Ma&lt;span style=&quot;background:#aad&quot;&gt;c&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;M♦&lt;/span&gt;]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:ianmacm|(talk to me)]]&lt;/sup&gt;''''' 04:57, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::::Let's say this is true; does this automatically mean that the fact he claimed allegiance to the Islamic terrorist groups null and void? Are we to dismiss the fact he said &quot;I'm committing these acts in the name of Islam&quot;? (not actual quote but you get what I mean) I'd argue that it's just more information on top of what we already know, which is that this is an self-described Islamic terrorist attack. New evidence does not make it any more or less of a terrorist attack. [[User:Sethyre|Sethyre]] ([[User talk:Sethyre|talk]]) 19:24, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::::To further what Sethyre has said, Mateen claimed it as an Islamic attack himself - to the authorities directly, disregarding the other supporting facts - the Islamic terror group in question claimed responsibility (or more pertinent perhaps, their approval) and the FBI themselves, primary authorities investigating the matter, also stated it was driven at least in large part by Mateens Islamic beliefs. Many reliable sources - repeatedly quoted and linked in different places in this RfC - have quoted this language directly, and several even reporting it in their own voices. Regardless of statements of &quot;confusion&quot; made by third parties and other talking heads, is not any form of action other then directly recording the news and these statements (perhaps with a conflict section specifically on this matter, if such is still opined by others as somehow incorrect with good sources) given their weight on this issue anything more then OR or POV? As I stated in the edit request further down, I don't normally comment on Wikipedia, and as such shall remain an IP - whether you feel that takes credibility away from my reasoning or not is up to you, but the reporting on this case is pretty clear cut from where I'm sitting. [[Special:Contributions/69.114.53.16|69.114.53.16]] ([[User talk:69.114.53.16|talk]]) 20:33, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::::::It is completely irrelevant whether or not he also had other motives for his attack - many Islamist terrorist attacks are also hate crimes, or are enacted to gain revenge for some real or imagined slight. The fact that he actively pledged allegiance to ISIS, had a history of sympathizing with radical Islamist beliefs, that the US government has agreed that his Islamist beliefs played a role in the attack, and that ISIS took credit for it all points towards it being an Islamist attack. If he had other motives as well, that doesn't change the fact that he still belongs on this list. [[user:Titanium Dragon|&lt;span style=&quot;background-color:{{ trim | silver }}; color:{{ trim | }};&quot;&gt;{{ trim | '''Titanium Dragon''' }}&lt;/span&gt;]] ([[user talk:Titanium Dragon|talk]]) 23:47, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> *'''Yes''' The fact that we are discussing this shows some of the fundamental flaws in Wikipedia (much as I love it) that are disappointing. We are not required to give both sides equal time, this isn't a 24 hour news program where 1 outlier who believes aliens gave us technology gets to debate 1 professor who says they didn't. The terrorist left a claim, it's been reported many times, there should be no dispute - and yet - here we are :sigh:. [[User:BHC|BHC]] ([[User talk:BHC|talk]]) 20:37, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> *: Your vote is in the wrong place {{ping|BHC}} I suggest you move it to the appropriate subsection (in this case 6.1 Survey). [[User:Mr rnddude|Mr rnddude]] ([[User talk:Mr rnddude|talk]]) 23:26, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> * For all of you &quot;strong yes&quot;-ers: if someone, in the course of committing an extravagant outrage, proclaimed &quot;allegiance&quot; to extra-terrestial aliens, would that prove he was an extra-terrestial alien? ~ [[User:J. Johnson|J.&amp;nbsp;Johnson (JJ)]] ([[User_talk:J. Johnson#top|talk]]) 22:35, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::: If other attacks on this page have been listed for just the attacker pledging their allegiance to Islamist groups, what is the reasoning for not allowing the Orlando Shooting on the list? &lt;!-- Template:Unsigned --&gt;&lt;small&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—&amp;nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:2601:40d:8100:e810::2|2601:40d:8100:e810::2]] ([[User talk:2601:40d:8100:e810::2|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/2601:40d:8100:e810::2|contribs]]) &lt;/span&gt;&lt;/small&gt;<br /> ::: Have these theoretical extra-terrestiral aliens promoted lone wolf attacks, and have they acknowledged the actions of this person? In other words, your strawman is bunk. [[Special:Contributions/206.190.75.9|206.190.75.9]] ([[User talk:206.190.75.9|talk]]) 23:41, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::: To copy from below: The [[Charleston church shooting]] is currently in the category ''White supremacy in the United States'' despite the perpetrator having had no formal links to white supremacist groups. The motive was determined via consulting his manifesto and circumstantial evidence about which websites he had visited. The article itself features statements that cast doubt over the white supremacist element of the attack -- ''&quot;I don't think the church was his primary target because he told us he was going for the school. But I think he couldn't get into the school because of the security ... so I think he just settled for the church.&quot;'' Mateen's manifesto was transmitted via phone calls and the transcript features numerous mentions of Islamism and ideas frequently expressed by groups that are clearly Islamist. If we're going to cast aspersions over one manifesto, then it would only seem unbiased to call the motive on the other attack suspect, too. In fact, this would require every manifesto to be treated, as you say, like a person &quot;pledging allegiance to aliens&quot; and of no relevance to the motive for the attack. --[[User:Toomanyaccountsargh|Toomanyaccountsargh]] ([[User talk:Toomanyaccountsargh|talk]]) 05:31, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::: If we had a list of &quot;Terrorist attacks by UFO conspiracy theorists&quot;, yeah, we'd include him on that list. It is irrelevant whether or not the guy is a member of ISIS, though; this is about Islamist terrorist attacks, not ISIS terrorist attacks. [[user:Titanium Dragon|&lt;span style=&quot;background-color:{{ trim | silver }}; color:{{ trim | }};&quot;&gt;{{ trim | '''Titanium Dragon''' }}&lt;/span&gt;]] ([[user talk:Titanium Dragon|talk]]) 23:42, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> <br /> I disagree. There is more evidence that 9/11 wasn't an Islamist attack when compared to Orlando. Bin Laden originally stated he didn't do it. He retracted his statements, and CIA and FBI intel makes it undeniable that Bin Laden caused 9/11.<br /> <br /> Meanwhile, The Orlando shooter made his motives clear from day 1. [[User:R00b07|R00b07]] ([[User talk:R00b07|talk]]) 23:54, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> <br /> I also don't care what Breitbart said. A fact is a fact. He pledged allegiance to ISIS. That's like if during the Troubles someone pledged allegiance to the IRA and shot British people. It's clear what the motive is. If Breitbart said 2+2=4 would we change it just to spite Breitbart? [[User:R00b07|R00b07]] ([[User talk:R00b07|talk]]) 00:06, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> :That is the most ridiculous argument I have ever heard (on this page so far). &quot;He said it, therefore it is&quot;, no sir, the motivations are not clear and that's why we're having this discussion. I could pledge allegiance to Black Lives Matter and go on a rampage against the white community, that doesn't necessarily mean that that was my real motive. Maybe I just don't care anymore or am actually a psycho. The point is, you don't know his motivations, we don't know his motivations, we only know what sources are suggesting are his motivations and what he has claimed are his motivations. There's reason to believe that he's covering up his real motivations, and that's why we're discussing this. [[User:Mr rnddude|Mr rnddude]] ([[User talk:Mr rnddude|talk]]) 00:12, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::{{tq|we only know what sources are suggesting are his motivations and what he has claimed are his motivations.}} And that's all we need to know to include, list, and edit articles on subjects for Wikipedia - indeed, that's all we're '''allowed''' to use when doing such. We report NPOV what the reliable sources say, which in this case the shooter himself, the FBI investigating and releasing information and the news organizations consequently writing articles about those findings all qualify as such. Going further is OR and it definitely wouldn't be the first, or last article on Wikipedia that; for reasons of credibility, NPOV, and BLP - isn't allowed to dig deeper into mysterious motivations when we have due weight sources '''not''' reporting on them to any effective degree. [[Special:Contributions/69.114.53.16|69.114.53.16]] ([[User talk:69.114.53.16|talk]]) 00:27, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::You are quite correct, and the predominance of reliable sources do not state unequivocally (the appropriate bar for a list that is without explanation or context) that this was an Islamic terrorist attack. The original research is to place it in this list based on the ambiguous connections that ''have'' been made. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#AAA;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 00:31, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::The reliable sources are still out on the discussion (is he islamist, gay, schizophrenic, etc). The investigation is still going on, when the investigation ends, when we have undeniable/conclusive evidence, we'll make the report. The point being, we are not reporting anything until we have substantiated facts. Reporting nothing fits well within NPOV, reporting something controversial not so much. [[User:Mr rnddude|Mr rnddude]] ([[User talk:Mr rnddude|talk]]) 00:32, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::You're both correct that there is conflict between news services regarding exactly what Mateen's motivations are, and there are just as many that don't state it was Islamic terrorism in their own voice and quote others who also refuse to label it as such - but there's also many places that do (plenty of which are linked around the RFC above). While the news services are still bumbling around this and perhaps need to be taken with a grain of salt - or two - I'd posit that the statements made by Mateen himself and the information and conclusions so far discussed and released by the FBI are perhaps at this moment, until given evidence otherwise, more weighty themselves - and these are sources that unequivocally '''do''' include the attack under Islamic fundamentalism. I did suggest earlier in one of the edit requests that perhaps the best result for now would be to include the Orlando shooting in this list, but also add a strong conflict subsection explaining the currently ongoing nature of the case and the disputation of facts currently presented, focusing on refuting the possible Islamic involvement in such. [[Special:Contributions/69.114.53.16|69.114.53.16]] ([[User talk:69.114.53.16|talk]]) 00:52, 1 July 2016 (UTC) <br /> :::::::::: &quot;and there are just as many that don't state it was Islamic terrorism in their own voice &quot; Can I have a list of those sources? I'm really curious on who states that. [[User:R00b07|R00b07]] ([[User talk:R00b07|talk]]) 02:00, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::::::::::There's several up above (most famously MrX's response near the top) but take heed - I'm not saying they definitively stated it was '''not''' an Islamic attack, but that they didn't state it was, or at the very least offered quotes saying the same and avoiding the issue in their own words entirely. Which, in contrast - to me, anyway - lends more credence and weight to the official statements from the FBI as they have definitively stated a conclusion as far as Mateen's motivations go (and aligning with Mateen's statements) while the news organizations opposed to this are making no claims other than a paraphrased &quot;We can't know for sure!&quot; which is a definitive cloud of nebulous indecision and without any sort of supported substantiated evidence - unlike the FBI. [[Special:Contributions/69.114.53.16|69.114.53.16]] ([[User talk:69.114.53.16|talk]]) 02:25, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> :{{tq|Anyone saying it wasn't an Islamic attack is being intentionally dishonest.}} Right, we're all just ISIL sleeper agents, placed in the West and raised as Westerners to represent jihadism at en-Wikipedia. Or, just maybe, we have a different viewpoint from you as to the proper use of a list that is devoid of explanation or context. I'd suggest you have a read of [[WP:AGF]] and avoid any further such comments. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#AAA;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 00:13, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> :: This is the most ironic comment I have ever seen, as it was assumed that I was in bad faith. Also, do you have a more logical reason why he did what he did?[[User:R00b07|R00b07]] ([[User talk:R00b07|talk]]) 01:20, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::There is a substantial lack of irony in the comment, there is no strawman just a bit of sarcasm. The point being delivered is that we have differing opinions to you, there is controversy surrounding the motives of the attacker and so some of us are opposed to their inclusion in this article. It's quite that simple. [[User:Mr rnddude|Mr rnddude]] ([[User talk:Mr rnddude|talk]]) 01:26, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::Sub comment; A more logical reason? you realize that we're discussing human motives, the epitomy of the illogical (slight hyperbole as it were). I can suggest other reasons (logical or otherwise); his religious beliefs conflicting with his own self (this does not mean a connection with the Daesh), shame for his own sexuality, schizophrenia (mentioned somewhere above, wasn't even aware of it to be honest), delusions and so forth. [[User:Mr rnddude|Mr rnddude]] ([[User talk:Mr rnddude|talk]]) 01:31, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::::::: If that's the case, I honestly and seriously recommend making a List of Schizophreniac attacks, and adding the Orlando shooting to it.[[User:R00b07|R00b07]] ([[User talk:R00b07|talk]]) 01:36, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::::::::For clarity, I'm not saying it is or isn't, only suggesting that it ''could be'', and because it ''could be'', that qualifies the argument that ISIL inspired attack ''might not be'', because it ''might not be'', we shouldn't include it in this article until we can qualify that it ''is'' or ''isn't''. [[User:Mr rnddude|Mr rnddude]] ([[User talk:Mr rnddude|talk]]) 01:40, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::::::::::I'm not stating that ISIL caused the attack. This isn't a list of ISIL attacks. What every major news outlet (CBS, NBC, ABC, and hell before the FBI censored the phone call) reported was that the Orlando Massacre was an Islamic Terror attack. If we can't classify it as an Islamic Terror Attack, what are we going to classify it as instead? Because removing the Massacre and not giving a new place would be not good. [[User:R00b07|R00b07]] ([[User talk:R00b07|talk]]) 01:56, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::::::::Must everything be placed into a nice, simple category? Is that what we're here for, to encourage simple-minded worldviews, sort of like Hollywood movies? I hope not. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#AAA;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 01:49, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::::::::::: Yes, everything should be placed into an appropriate list. If it doesn't fit one list, it should fit into another. I thought the point of Wikipedia was to &quot;collect and develop educational content under a free license or in the public domain, and to disseminate it effectively and globally&quot;. [[User:R00b07|R00b07]] ([[User talk:R00b07|talk]]) 01:59, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::::::::::::Key words; &quot;appropriate list&quot;, this might not be the appropriate list, we might not have a list that is appropriate, we might not need one. [[User:Mr rnddude|Mr rnddude]] ([[User talk:Mr rnddude|talk]]) 02:01, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::::::::::::Fair enough, good point. [[User:R00b07|R00b07]] ([[User talk:R00b07|talk]]) 02:17, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::::::::::::{{tq|Yes, everything should be placed into an appropriate list.}} Strongly disagree, for the reason I stated. But I'm open to seeing the Wikipedia policy or guideline that says that. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#AAA;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 02:04, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> {{outdent}} ((&quot;But I'm open to seeing the Wikipedia policy or guideline that says that.&quot;)) It's not a guideline, it's common sense that if Wikipedia's mission is to &quot;collect and develop educational content&quot; and &quot;to disseminate it effectively and globally&quot;, that having attacks in an organized list makes it easier to collect and share to the public. But I'm open to seeing something instead of an organized list that would better &quot;disseminate it effectively and globally&quot;. [[User:R00b07|R00b07]] ([[User talk:R00b07|talk]]) 02:17, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> :{{User:Cyclopia/Ubx common sense}} &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#AAA;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 02:26, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> :: Regardless if it's common sense or reason, my point remains and you haven't addressed it. [[User:R00b07|R00b07]] ([[User talk:R00b07|talk]]) 02:28, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::Well there's no addressing the logical long-jump from &quot;collect and develop educational content&quot;, and &quot;to disseminate it effectively and globally&quot;, to &quot;include Orlando in a list of Islamic terrorism attacks&quot;. So I won't try to. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#AAA;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 02:31, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::You seem to be missing my point. I NEVER SAID that &quot;collect and develop educational content&quot; and &quot;to disseminate it effectively and globally&quot; means that you must &quot;include Orlando in a list of Islamic terrorism attacks&quot;. I said that &quot;having attacks in an organized list makes it easier to collect and share to the public&quot; and that's what Wikipedia is all about. Adding Orlando to the list of attacks should only be done if there are enough sources, and the sources have been laid out a million times. I can provide links to the sources if you want. [[User:R00b07|R00b07]] ([[User talk:R00b07|talk]]) 02:44, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::::We are beyond circular argument here, so I refer you to my !vote and previous comments for my response. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#AAA;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 03:15, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::Per [[WP:AGF]], do not accuse others of being intentionally dishonest (your words, no &quot;straw man&quot; there) ''without clear evidence.'' The only reason we're not at [[WP:ANI]] now is that you didn't make the accusation against a specific editor (but that line could be moved if you persist). &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#AAA;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 01:27, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::::Edited my comment per [[WP:AGF]]. Also, I understand that being passive aggressive is allowed. [[User:R00b07|R00b07]] ([[User talk:R00b07|talk]]) 01:32, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::::I don't think your comment about the strawman was the issue being addressed by Mandruss, rather the insinuation that we're all being &quot;intentionally dishonest&quot; because we disagree. [[User:Mr rnddude|Mr rnddude]] ([[User talk:Mr rnddude|talk]]) 01:35, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::::::Edited my comment per [[WP:AGF]]. [[User:R00b07|R00b07]] ([[User talk:R00b07|talk]]) 01:39, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> We do know how to use the outdent template, right? I've applied it here for legibility reasons, by the way. I've also eliminated unnecessary indentations. Tell me if you feel I've made a mistake. &lt;font face=&quot;#&quot; color=&quot;#35b794&quot;&gt;[[User:Dschslava|'''Dsch'''slava]]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;#3558b7&quot;&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contribs/Dschslava|'' Δx '']]&lt;/sup&gt;[[User talk:Dschslava|parlez moi]]&lt;/font&gt; 06:25, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ===Real Talk===<br /> * Obama said that &quot;So whatever the motivations of the killer, whatever influences led him down the path of violence and terror, whatever propaganda he was consuming from ISIL and al Qaeda, this was an act of terrorism but it was also an act of hate.&quot; per [https://www.whitehouse.gov/blog/2016/06/12/president-obama-tragic-shooting-orlando]<br /> *The FBI released a transcript of the attacker's phone call to 911 that included him pledging allegiance to ISIS and identifying himself as an Islamic soldier: [http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2016/06/20/fbi-release-orlando-911-transcripts/86130520/]<br /> * Reuters notes the shooter expressed support for multiple Islamist groups, and the FBI said that he pledged his support to Islamist extremists and referred to him being radicalized: [http://www.reuters.com/article/us-florida-shooting-nightclub-idUSKCN0YY08B]<br /> * Hillary Clinton referred to it as &quot;radical Islamism&quot;: [http://www.politico.com/story/2016/06/hillary-clinton-radical-islam-224255] Donald Trump did as well.<br /> That's the terrorist himself, the president, both of the major presidential candidates, the FBI, and Reuters all referring to him pledging allegience to an Islamist group, being an Islamist, radicalization, radical islamism, it being a terrorist attack, ect. What exactly are people complaining about here? Wikipedia itself classifies ISIS/ISIL/Islamic State as an Islamist group. [[user:Titanium Dragon|&lt;span style=&quot;background-color:{{ trim | silver }}; color:{{ trim | }};&quot;&gt;{{ trim | '''Titanium Dragon''' }}&lt;/span&gt;]] ([[user talk:Titanium Dragon|talk]]) 02:14, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :Thank you. You have created a separate section for your argument, it being obviously more important than the rest. Can the rest of us do that, resulting in over a hundred !vote subsections? &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#AAA;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 02:19, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::: Why do you feel the need to be hostile in order to make your point? Remember to [[WP:AGF]]. [[WP:ANI]] applies to everyone. Maybe he is new and made a new section because he doesn't know any better. Assume Good Faith. [[User:R00b07|R00b07]] ([[User talk:R00b07|talk]]) 02:25, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::::Holy crap, why are people SO ADAMANT on keeping the Orlando shooting off the list? It's like people are trying to avoid coming to terms with reality, and the more evidence and arguments FOR keeping it on the list pop up, the more frustrated and angry they get. Just look at the comment in response to this, it's completely avoiding the point and instead attacks Titanium Dragon for making a separate space. [[User:Sethyre|Sethyre]] ([[User talk:Sethyre|talk]]) 02:30, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::::: (&quot;Holy crap, why are people SO ADAMANT on keeping the Orlando shooting off the list?&quot;) You know why. ;) But yeah, it's sad when people who speak against the stream get replied with sarcastic comments. (Assume Good Faith doesn't work here, since it was already admitted)[[User:R00b07|R00b07]] ([[User talk:R00b07|talk]]) 02:33, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::::{{tq|Holy crap, why are people SO ADAMANT on keeping the Orlando shooting off the list?}} If you actually don't understand the arguments, you haven't read much of them. I understand it's a ton of reading, but it beats endless redundant repetition. And speaking only for myself, I'm neither frustrated nor angry, although I do object to a separate subsection for the argument that could have been made in a !vote. It's the same reasoning as is applied to extensive use of boldfacing or underscoring. If no one else shares that view, fine. I'm capable of deferring to consensus on this as much as anything else. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#AAA;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 02:48, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::::: Let's dissect this one again. &quot;If you actually don't understand the arguments, you haven't read much of them.&quot; I'm assuming you mean well by this comment, but it's really hard to. To me it seems like another insult. [[User:R00b07|R00b07]] ([[User talk:R00b07|talk]]) 02:53, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::::::Given the wall-of-text effect, it's anything but an insult to suggest that someone may not have read much of it. Being a very slow reader, I am myself forced to skip much of that when I arrive at an RfC late, and I wouldn't feel insulted if someone pointed that out to me after I had implied that I don't understand the opposition's arguments. My comments are clearly not in violation of AGF, so I'd ask that you take any further discussion about my tone to my talk page. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#AAA;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 02:59, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> ** When Hillary Clinton, Donald Trump, (I know not reliable sources, just making a point) CNN, NBC, CBS, ABC, and The FBI (Reliable Sources) agree that the motivation was Islamic Terror, that sounds like a consensus to me. However, somehow the argument manages to devolve into talks about schizophrenia and self hatred. [[User:R00b07|R00b07]] ([[User talk:R00b07|talk]]) 02:25, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> ***I personally have no stakes in this, I only care that we wait until either we have unequivocal evidence of such (which seems to be well documented above) or that we come to a consensus. I mentioned the alternate arguments because I'd noted them in some places. [[User:Mr rnddude|Mr rnddude]] ([[User talk:Mr rnddude|talk]]) 02:37, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> ****The thing that is confusing me is that we have a ton of reliable sources, and people are talking about extraterrestrials and stuff. Wikipedia relies on reliable sources and [[WP:COMMONNAME]] to name/identify stuff. Given that there seem to be an overwhelming number of RSes aligned on this point, I'm not sure what the argument is really about at this point. What else could we possibly be looking for? When the terrorist, a terrorist group, the US government, a variety of news sources, and competing presidential candidates all agree on something, it seems like that's about as much agreement as you can reasonably hope for. [[user:Titanium Dragon|&lt;span style=&quot;background-color:{{ trim | silver }}; color:{{ trim | }};&quot;&gt;{{ trim | '''Titanium Dragon''' }}&lt;/span&gt;]] ([[user talk:Titanium Dragon|talk]]) 04:23, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> *****What you're essentially saying (correct me if I'm wrong) is that the arguments for inclusion are clearly stronger than those against. If you're right, any competent closer will see that and close in your favor. A new separate subsection doesn't get us any closer to that end, and only serves to give undue &lt;u&gt;emphasis&lt;/u&gt; to your argument—and create yet more redundancy for the closer to slog through. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#AAA;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 04:37, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> ******Yelling at people to shut up does not actually reduce the volume in the room, you know. [[Special:Contributions/2601:602:9802:99B2:F1DB:D95B:C7B2:2EE0|2601:602:9802:99B2:F1DB:D95B:C7B2:2EE0]] ([[User talk:2601:602:9802:99B2:F1DB:D95B:C7B2:2EE0|talk]]) 05:04, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> *******{{Ping|Mandruss}} I was hoping for an explanation of why we should disregard all of those sources and not list it as an Islamist terrorist attack. Wikipedia isn't about voting, its about consensus, and I'm trying to understand what it is that you disagree with here. MrX's original objection was simply that there weren't sources which said that this was an Islamist terrorist attack, but it is clear that there are tons of such sources, so I was wondering if there was some other objection. If there isn't, there's not much of a point to any of this. The only other argument I'm seeing is people speculating that he was gay, but we don't know that he was, and in any case, there's nothing that prevents an Islamist from being gay. There have been many instances of conservatives who were very strongly opposed to homosexuality due to their religious beliefs themselves being homosexual, so it isn't really a counter-argument - doubly so given that the shooter told the police themselves that they were acting on behalf of ISIS (whether ISIS knew about it or not). [[user:Titanium Dragon|&lt;span style=&quot;background-color:{{ trim | silver }}; color:{{ trim | }};&quot;&gt;{{ trim | '''Titanium Dragon''' }}&lt;/span&gt;]] ([[user talk:Titanium Dragon|talk]]) 05:35, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> ********It's a wonder that there's a RfC at all. There's far more attacks that have vauger connections to Islam than the Orlando shooting, so why is THIS PARTICULAR event so contested here on Wikipedia? And what does it say about Wikipedia in general if things like this continue to happen despite clear evidence that it isn't necessary? [[User:Sethyre|Sethyre]] ([[User talk:Sethyre|talk]]) 05:41, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> *********I don't believe that this particularly says anything about Wikipedia in general, beyond possibly a few tendentious editors - I mean, let's be clear here, the series of events were extremely muddled and conflicting information tossed all about originally and the very points against the Orlando's inclusion as an Islamic attack were well applied at that point. It is however fair (and safe) at this point to say this has changed. All the more recent information (news articles/FBI/talking heads) have given full and due weight to the information that yes; indeed - this attack was a demonstration of Islamic fundamentalism. The editors who have up to this point protected this article (and it's inclusion to this list) in the meantime have done well by doing so, and deserve every chance to review all the new articles and sources (posted here and any in an edit request below) and see the well given preponderance of statements towards real, supported information - and the dismissal of several fallacies formerly involved too. Now, if people choose to keep ignoring all of this then perhaps it would be time to wail about the stubborn mules and the Wikipedia stables - but the time hasn't precisely come yet, and always assume in good faith that people can come around. [[Special:Contributions/69.114.53.16|69.114.53.16]] ([[User talk:69.114.53.16|talk]]) 06:06, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> ********The arguments against inclusion are more than &quot;there weren't sources which said that this was an Islamist terrorist attack&quot;. They have been stated multiple times by multiple editors with multiple ways of saying them, and often with others apparently failing to hear them or hearing them inaccurately and/or simplistically. I'm sorry but it seems both impractical and a waste of time to try to fully articulate them here, again. They are there for you to read, or maybe someone else would care to take a stab at a full and complete re-statement of them. Update: On second thought, I doubt any one editor could fully and accurately summarize &lt;u&gt;all&lt;/u&gt; of the nay arguments. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#AAA;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 05:53, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> * The [[2015 Leytonstone tube station attack]] was another of those attacks that people raced to include in this list, for many of the same reasons people want to include Orlando. The Leytonstone attacker shouted Islamic phrases, so it '''''must''''' have been an Islamist attack, right?! Oh, no, wait now... Nope. Mentally ill man. We'll never know for definite now whether Mateen was mentally ill or not, but being the U.S., he had access to much more significant weaponry. Certainly, from people who ''knew'' him (as opposed to FBI examinations of his phone), he apparently appeared to be [[Omar_Mateen#Personal_life|mentally unstable]] and his sexual orientation was [[Omar_Mateen#Sexual_orientation|open to question]]. Sorry if that doesn't fit in to some black and white Breitbart classification. [[User:Bastun|&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Verdana, sans-serif&quot;&gt;Bastun&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Bastun|Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!]]&lt;/sup&gt; 16:45, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> :But mental illness doesn't preclude an attack for any type of classification. Neither does sexual orientation. Is the list called &quot;List of attacks by Heterosexual, Mentally Stable Islamists&quot;? No. I'm not a doctor, but I would guess that Omar Mateen, Dylan Roof, the Leytonstone attacker, and Ted Kaczynski were all mentally unstable. But these attackers all chose to intentionally identify with a polical ideology and associate their attacks with some ideology. If Omar Mateen supports ISIS because ISIS gives him publicity, which he craves for psychopathological reasons (this is plausible, but also very speculative), that does not make him less of a supporter of ISIS. Consider a hypothetical fighter who has joined ISIS to gain money or slaves as spoils of war but has little interest in religion. Would that man not be a &quot;real&quot; supporter of ISIS? I think many of you who support removing this attack from the list are talking past us. The issue isn't that Mateen might have been gay, or might have been crazy, and that we Breitbart drones fail to recognize that. The issue is that we cannot understand how any of those complicating factor make Mateen ''not'' an ISIS supporter. Should we have a separate list for terrorist attacks made by ISIS supporters, that support the religous and political aims of ISIS (killing of gays and Americans), yet potentially had other motives? Well guess what- that would include every single attack on this list, including those ''actually directed by ISIS and Al-Qida''. Should we remove 9/11 from this list? Maybe one or more of the hijackers went through a rough divorce, flunked out of school, had a brain tumor, etc, etc, etc. Who cares? This is honestly getting absurd. [[User:Brianbleakley|Brianbleakley]] ([[User talk:Brianbleakley|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Brianbleakley|contrib]])) 17:45, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Recent evidence from the FBI about Orlando ==<br /> <br /> <br /> From yesterday's article titled &quot;FBI investigators say they have found no evidence that Orlando shooter had gay lovers&quot; found here: http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-orlando-gay-fbi-20160623-snap-story.html<br /> <br /> &quot;He claimed the shooting was carried out in allegiance to the militant group Islamic State, as a message to halt U.S. bombing in Iraq and Syria. Several Pulse regulars have come forward in the days since the shooting, claiming to have seen Mateen at the club or to have been contacted by him on the gay dating apps Grindr, Jack’d and Adam4Adam. On Tuesday, Univision aired a report in which “Miguel,” a man wearing a disguise to conceal his identity, alleged he had sex with Mateen after meeting him on the gay dating app, Grindr. He said Mateen &gt;had sex with other men too, including a threesome with a Puerto Rican who allegedly told Mateen, after having had unprotected sex with him, that he was HIV positive. But investigators do not consider the man’s account credible, according to one senior law enforcement official with access to the investigation.&quot;<br /> <br /> In light of this information, it seems that indeed Orlando was motivated by extremism. &lt;small class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—&amp;nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/73.233.156.49|73.233.156.49]] ([[User talk:73.233.156.49|talk]]) 14:06, 24 June 2016 (UTC)&lt;/small&gt;&lt;!-- Template:Unsigned IP --&gt; &lt;!--Autosigned by SineBot--&gt;<br /> :No, that would be a [[false binary]]. Let's let the FBI finish doing their job.- [[user: MrX|Mr]][[user talk:MrX|X]] 21:56, 24 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::Did you miss the first sentence of the quote about Mateen? &quot;He claimed the shooting was carried out in allegiance to the militant group Islamic State, as a message to halt U.S. bombing in Iraq and Syria.&quot; This wasn't a &quot;process of elimination&quot; conclusion that it was extremism, this is actually what Mateen's affirmative motivation was as reported by the investigators. &lt;small class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—&amp;nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/73.233.156.49|73.233.156.49]] ([[User talk:73.233.156.49|talk]]) 14:44, 25 June 2016 (UTC)&lt;/small&gt;&lt;!-- Template:Unsigned IP --&gt; &lt;!--Autosigned by SineBot--&gt;<br /> :::Maybe I misunderstood how you were reaching your conclusion, in which case mentioning the gay angle is not really relevant. Whether Mateen's own pledge of allegiance to ISIL is sufficient for characterizing the shooting as an Islamist terrorist attack is at the center of the editorial dispute (above). Obviously opinions vary. - [[user: MrX|Mr]][[user talk:MrX|X]] 18:11, 25 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::Mateen's only claim is Islamist extremism. ISIL or Hezbollah or Chechen or Taliban matters not in a self-radicalized Islamist terror attack against Western policy. It is sufficient that he attacked unarmed persons because he disagreed with the policy that killed Muslims. That is not an uncommon motive and the flavor of Islam is not relevant. We have a lot more evidence of his Islamist terror motive than any anti-LGBT motive. --[[User:DHeyward|DHeyward]] ([[User talk:DHeyward|talk]]) 00:09, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> Why is the self gay hatred narrative still being peddled around, when it is significantly less plausible than any other factor being brought up? [[User:R00b07|R00b07]] ([[User talk:R00b07|talk]]) 00:44, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> A muslim man shot up a nightclub under the pretense of Radical Islam. ISIL later took credit for it. Who cares if it was carried out on ISIL's instruction or not? ISIL has sent messages to Extremists in the US and other western countries to continue carrying out LONE WOLF attacks. ISIL can't personally endorse each and every attempted bombing. They only take credit once the deed is done. The Orlando shooting was one of these encouraged lone wolf attacks, and while ISIL didn't plan it, they certainly took credit. Stop this PC nonsense. You are disrespecting the deceased victims names if you call this anything other than what it really is: Islamic Terror. &lt;!-- Template:Unsigned --&gt;&lt;small&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—&amp;nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Battlefront228|Battlefront228]] ([[User talk:Battlefront228|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Battlefront228|contribs]]) 19:34, 1 July 2016 (UTC)&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/small&gt; &lt;!--Autosigned by SineBot--&gt;<br /> <br /> == Semi-protected edit request on 26 June 2016 ==<br /> <br /> {{edit semi-protected|List of Islamist terrorist attacks|answered=yes}}<br /> &lt;!-- State UNAMBIGUOUSLY your suggested changes. Other editors need to know what to add or remove. Blank edit requests will be declined. --&gt;<br /> <br /> <br /> To be added near the bottom of the 2016 list of terrorist attacks in chronological order...<br /> <br /> *Florida June 12, 2016 - Omar Mateen, pledging allegiance to ISIS, attacked the Pulse gay nightclub in Orlando, Fl, killing 49 and wounding 53 others before he himself was killed in a shootout with police. url=http://www.cnn.com/2016/06/12/us/orlando-nightclub-shooting/<br /> <br /> <br /> &lt;!-- Write your request ABOVE this line and do not remove the tildes below. --&gt;<br /> [[User:Ghostvet|Ghostvet]] ([[User talk:Ghostvet|talk]]) 22:02, 26 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :{{not done}} - See [[#RfC: Should the Orlando shooting be included in this list?]]. - [[user: MrX|Mr]][[user talk:MrX|X]] 22:06, 26 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Semi-protected edit request on 29 June 2016 ==<br /> <br /> {{edit semi-protected|List of Islamist terrorist attacks|answered=yes}}<br /> &lt;!-- State UNAMBIGUOUSLY your suggested changes. Other editors need to know what to add or remove. Blank edit requests will be declined. --&gt;<br /> <br /> <br /> I noticed that the Orlando attack is missing from the list of Islamic terrorist attacks. I know there have been a lot of Internet memes trying to claim that it wasn’t Islamic, but homophobia for example. I submit for your consideration that it can be both.<br /> First, there are multiple sources that consider the Orlando attacks to be both Islamic and Terrorist. It actually parallels the Fort Hood and San Bernardino attacks, where a self-radicalized attacker was inspired by radical Islamic ideology he learned on the Internet. He then selected a target he knew and attacked.<br /> As far as the definition for what a “reliable source” is, how do you handle that with things that are so political? The New York Times editorial page is certainly not an unbiased source. If their editorial page is disqualified, would you disqualify the editorial page of the Wall Street Journal as well? The AP Stylebook is influenced by politics and you will see certain English-language sources avoid words, whether because the stylebook states a preferred way or their own individual bias. (For more on this, see the AP Stylebook regarding the change from using the term illegal immigrants to undocumented workers to describe those who are unlawfully present in the U.S.<br /> Cite: &lt;ref&gt;https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/wp/2013/04/02/ap-drops-illegal-immigrant-from-stylebook/&lt;/ref&gt;<br /> <br /> I would argue that your definition should not be solely whether a single news article includes the words “terrorism” and “Islamic.” Rather, you should take into consideration whether or not the attacker claimed his motivation was Islam and whether a known Islamic terrorist organization congratulates, endorses, or claims responsibility for an attack. (For example, the Irish Republican Army has not claimed credit for any of the attacks on the Islamic terror attack list, even though the organization blew up some buildings and engaged in terrorist activity in the past.)<br /> Orlando Attack Sources:<br /> &lt;ref&gt;http://fpif.org/orlando-future-terrorism/&lt;/ref&gt;<br /> &lt;ref&gt;https://www.stratfor.com/geopolitical-diary/searching-right-answer-islamic-state&lt;/ref&gt;<br /> &lt;ref&gt;http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2016/06/12/orlando-nightclub-shooting/&lt;/ref&gt;<br /> <br /> For those that argue the Orlando attack was just a hate crime because of homophobia, consider that homosexual behavior still qualifies for the death penalty in many Islamic countries, and in Daesh-controlled areas. Islam itself recommends violence against homosexuals:<br /> &lt;ref&gt;https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2016/06/13/here-are-the-10-countries-where-homosexuality-may-be-punished-by-death-2/&lt;/ref&gt;<br /> &lt;ref&gt;http://www.latimes.com/world/middleeast/la-fg-islamic-state-anti-gay-violence-20160613-snap-story.html&lt;/ref&gt;<br /> &lt;ref&gt;http://www.cbsnews.com/news/isis-orlando-shooting-gays-execution-torture-ramadan/&lt;/ref&gt;<br /> &lt;ref&gt;http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/nation/imams-line-up-to-condemn-homosexuality/news-story/b1df7829507ae0a60875a5577bd21a43&lt;/ref&gt;<br /> <br /> Here are some sources for terrorist attacks not currently listed:<br /> &lt;ref&gt;http://www.aol.com/article/2016/06/25/somali-islamist-militants-attack-hotel-in-mogadishu/21403805/&lt;/ref&gt;<br /> &lt;ref&gt;http://www.haaretz.com/world-news/1.603331&lt;/ref&gt;<br /> &lt;ref&gt;http://www.haaretz.com/world-news/1.599021&lt;/ref&gt;<br /> &lt;ref&gt;http://www.capitalfm.co.ke/news/2014/06/48-dead-so-far-in-mpeketoni-terror-attack/&lt;/ref&gt;<br /> &lt;ref&gt;http://www.reuters.com/article/us-yemen-security-idUSKCN0ZD292&lt;/ref&gt;<br /> &lt;ref&gt;http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/syria-isis-suicide-bomb-shrine-june11-1.3630987&lt;/ref&gt;<br /> &lt;ref&gt;http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3664267/Lebanese-Christian-women-armed-machine-guns-patrol-border-village-ISIS-suspects-launch-suicide-attacks-prompting-authorities-round-103-illegal-Syrian-migrants.html&lt;/ref&gt;<br /> {{reflist-talk}}<br /> <br /> &lt;!-- Write your request ABOVE this line and do not remove the tildes below. --&gt;<br /> [[User:DeanSoCal|DeanSoCal]] ([[User talk:DeanSoCal|talk]]) 05:45, 29 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :[[File:Red information icon with gradient background.svg|20px|link=]] '''Not done:'''&lt;!-- Template:ESp --&gt; On going rfc on this very talk page regarding this issue [[User:EvergreenFir|'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:#8b00ff;&quot;&gt;Eve&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#6528c2;&quot;&gt;rgr&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#3f5184;&quot;&gt;een&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#197947;&quot;&gt;Fir&lt;/span&gt;''']] [[User talk:EvergreenFir|(talk)]] &lt;small&gt;Please &amp;#123;&amp;#123;[[Template:re|re]]&amp;#125;&amp;#125;&lt;/small&gt; 06:11, 29 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::https://www.fbi.gov/tampa/press-releases/2016/investigative-update-regarding-pulse-nightclub-shooting Done, comment given, from the shooter himself. From the FBI press release, have fun saying this guy wasn't doing it as an islamic terror attack after reading it. anyone waiting for an RFC after reading that is pushing an agenda, period. [[Special:Contributions/65.29.77.61|65.29.77.61]] ([[User talk:65.29.77.61|talk]]) 18:01, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::Do not pretend to know the motives of other editors. [[User:EvergreenFir|'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:#8b00ff;&quot;&gt;Eve&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#6528c2;&quot;&gt;rgr&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#3f5184;&quot;&gt;een&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#197947;&quot;&gt;Fir&lt;/span&gt;''']] [[User talk:EvergreenFir|(talk)]] &lt;small&gt;Please &amp;#123;&amp;#123;[[Template:re|re]]&amp;#125;&amp;#125;&lt;/small&gt; 19:03, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::::I would agree with your statement on the IP above not pretending to know the motivations of other editors, but I also find it amazingly hypocritical how these same other editors are pretending to know about the motivations of the Orlando shooter, regardless of the all the facts and statements from the FBI and reporting from RS that disagree with their assumption. I don't normally comment on Wikipedia so please correct me if I'm wrong; but every single argument in that RfC purporting that Orlando was NOT a terrorist attack is based entirely on OR and unsubstantiated rumors directly contradicted by the primary authorities and recent RS that have reported on the matter. [[Special:Contributions/69.114.53.16|69.114.53.16]] ([[User talk:69.114.53.16|talk]]) 19:26, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::: I'm not pretending, it's pretty obvious. Every single fact tells them they're wrong. They have transcripts, they have recordings in the shooters own voice, yet somehow they just buried their head in the sand? Malice or ignorance, pick one. It can't be ignorance because I know they can left click a link. [[Special:Contributions/65.29.77.61|65.29.77.61]] ([[User talk:65.29.77.61|talk]]) 03:17, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == June 28 Ataturk airport bombing ==<br /> <br /> So, should we add this bombing to the list right now, as it's current, or should we wait until we get full details? Please answer. [[User:Awesomegaming|Awesomegaming]] ([[User talk:Awesomegaming|talk]]) 23:47, 29 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :Do you have a source saying that it was an Islamist terrorist attack?- [[user: MrX|Mr]][[user talk:MrX|X]] 00:25, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :No. We must wait for full details. [[User:Brianbleakley|Brianbleakley]] ([[User talk:Brianbleakley|talk]]) 17:24, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :We need to be politically correct as much as possible so we shouldn't include it. Even if the rest of the world is reporting it to be such. [[User:Sir Joseph|Sir Joseph]] &lt;sup&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;Green&quot;&gt;[[User_talk:Sir Joseph|(talk)]]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/sup&gt; 17:32, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :Would [http://www.cnn.com/2016/06/30/europe/turkey-istanbul-ataturk-airport-attack/ this article] be considered a valid source? The article itself has only anonymous sources, and is thus hearsay. On the other hand, it is hearsay from a 'reputable' source. It is quite likely that the link to ISIS is real- I'm not disputing that. I'm just curious about the standard of sourcing required for this sort of thing. [[User:Brianbleakley|Brianbleakley]] ([[User talk:Brianbleakley|talk]]) 17:54, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :Actually, there does seem to be an [http://www.cbsnews.com/news/istanbul-airport-attack-signs-point-to-isis/ official statement] &quot;The findings of our security forces point at the Daesh organization as the perpetrators of this terror attack,&quot; Yildirim said, using the Arabic name for ISIS. &quot;Even though the indications suggest Daesh, our investigations are continuing.&quot; [[User:Brianbleakley|Brianbleakley]] ([[User talk:Brianbleakley|talk]]) 18:01, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> <br /> Anyone who wants to point to any other motivation on the Ataturk bombings, other than Islamic Terror, feel free. [[User:R00b07|R00b07]] ([[User talk:R00b07|talk]]) 23:59, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Disruptive editing in the middle of an RfC ==<br /> <br /> Twice, editors have restored the Orlando shooting to this list, in spite of consensus to do so in the '''[[#RfC: Should the Orlando shooting be included in this list?|ongong RfC]]'''. Not only is this [[WP:DISRUPT|disruptive]], it's out of process as detailed at [[WP:RFC#Suggestions for responding]], which says<br /> :&quot;Edits to content under RfC discussion may be particularly controversial. Avoid making edits that others may view as unhelpful. Editing after others have raised objections may be viewed as disruptive editing or edit warring. Be patient; make your improvements in accord with consensus after the RFC is resolved.&quot;<br /> The RfC needs to be allowed to run its course, and consensus weighed by an admin, before this material is reintroduced.- [[user: MrX|Mr]][[user talk:MrX|X]] 15:33, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :Did you remove the attack from the list? If so, it should be reinstated immediately and the RfC should be completed to decide if it should be removed. Not the other way around. Why didn't you start a talk section about it instead of removing it immediately? [[User:Iksnyrk|Iksnyrk]] ([[User talk:Iksnyrk|talk]]) 20:11, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :There is no controversy. It was a self proclaimed islamic terrorist event. It's actually one of the very that can be completely verified as knowing what the motivation was.&lt;!-- Template:Unsigned --&gt;&lt;small&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—&amp;nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:97.91.188.153|97.91.188.153]] ([[User talk:97.91.188.153|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/97.91.188.153|contribs]]) 17:43, 30 June 2016 (UTC)&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/small&gt;<br /> ::The alternative explanation is that Omar Mateen was a crank/fantasist/mentally ill who proclaimed an Islamic motive after reading a few websites. As others have pointed out, if Mateen had claimed to be Napoleon, the Orlando shooting would not be described as the work of the French Empire. Motive is for the investigators to determine. It's also worrying that this is being hyped up on Breitbart, which is disrupting the normal editing process.--'''''[[User:ianmacm|&lt;span style=&quot;background:#88b;color:#cff;font-variant:small-caps&quot;&gt;♦Ian&lt;span style=&quot;background:#99c&quot;&gt;Ma&lt;span style=&quot;background:#aad&quot;&gt;c&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;M♦&lt;/span&gt;]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:ianmacm|(talk to me)]]&lt;/sup&gt;''''' 17:57, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::But, he didn't, Blanch. Stop propagandizing. &lt;!-- Template:Unsigned IP --&gt;&lt;small class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—&amp;nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/206.190.75.9|206.190.75.9]] ([[User talk:206.190.75.9|talk]]) 19:07, 30 June 2016 (UTC)&lt;/small&gt; &lt;!--Autosigned by SineBot--&gt;<br /> :::Well, if he claimed he were Napoleon and then France took credit for it we'd probably describe it as the work of France, don't you think? ISIL, an Islamic terrorist group, claims responsibility, do they not?--[[Special:Contributions/2607:EA00:107:2401:A13E:8174:2794:B667|2607:EA00:107:2401:A13E:8174:2794:B667]] ([[User talk:2607:EA00:107:2401:A13E:8174:2794:B667|talk]]) 20:23, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::The [[Charleston church shooting]] is currently in the category ''White supremacy in the United States'' despite the perpetrator having had no formal links to white supremacist groups. The motive was determined via consulting his manifesto and circumstantial evidence about which websites he had visited. The article itself features statements that cast doubt over the white supremacist element of the attack -- ''&quot;I don't think the church was his primary target because he told us he was going for the school. But I think he couldn't get into the school because of the security ... so I think he just settled for the church.&quot;'' Mateen's manifesto was transmitted via phone calls and the transcript features numerous mentions of Islamism and ideas frequently expressed by groups that are clearly Islamist. If we're going to cast aspersions over one manifesto, then it would only seem unbiased to call the motive on the other attack suspect, too. In fact, this would require every manifesto to be treated, as you say, like a product of mental illness of no relevance to the motive for the attack. --[[User:Toomanyaccountsargh|Toomanyaccountsargh]] ([[User talk:Toomanyaccountsargh|talk]]) 19:11, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::We are NOT going to have another content discussion about this here, pointlessly redundant with the open RfC. This is a thread about process, which is independent of any content questions. The listing is disputed and, as such, should stay out until consensus is reached to include it. Per [[WP:ONUS]], ''&quot;The onus to achieve consensus for inclusion is on those seeking to include disputed content.&quot;'' &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#AAA;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 21:18, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Semi-protected edit request on 30 June 2016 ==<br /> <br /> {{edit semi-protected|List of Islamist terrorist attacks|answered=yes}}<br /> &lt;!-- State UNAMBIGUOUSLY your suggested changes. Other editors need to know what to add or remove. Blank edit requests will be declined. --&gt;<br /> <br /> I would like to rightfully restore the Orlando and Turkey terror attacks to the list as they have been clearly demarcated as acts of Islamic terror.<br /> <br /> &lt;!-- Write your request ABOVE this line and do not remove the tildes below. --&gt;<br /> [[User:Jrcoyne99|Jrcoyne99]] ([[User talk:Jrcoyne99|talk]]) 19:39, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :You may wish to participate in the above RfC. [[User:BethNaught|BethNaught]] ([[User talk:BethNaught|talk]]) 19:41, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> <br /> wankers arguing semantics. it's a duck. call it a duck. I mean that literally. Add the Orlando Nightclub attack to the page &quot;list of ducks&quot;<br /> <br /> :{{not done}} - You may wish to participate in the above RfC. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#AAA;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 21:24, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Protected edit request on 30 June 2016 a ==<br /> <br /> {{edit fully-protected|List of Islamist terrorist attacks|answered=yes}}<br /> &lt;!-- State UNAMBIGUOUSLY your suggested changes. Other editors need to know what to add or remove. Blank edit requests will be declined. --&gt;<br /> Where is the list of Orlando and other attacks against US ? <br /> <br /> &lt;!-- Write your request ABOVE this line and do not remove the tildes below. --&gt;<br /> [[Special:Contributions/92.26.52.164|92.26.52.164]] ([[User talk:92.26.52.164|talk]]) 09:26, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :Please refer to [[Wikipedia:Edit requests]] for how to submit an edit request (they are not for asking a question). As for Orlando, there is an open RfC about that above. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#AAA;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 09:31, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Protected edit request on 30 June 2016 b==<br /> <br /> {{edit fully-protected|List of Islamist terrorist attacks|answered=yes}}<br /> &lt;!-- State UNAMBIGUOUSLY your suggested changes. Other editors need to know what to add or remove. Blank edit requests will be declined. --&gt;<br /> <br /> Two recent attacks appear to be missing:<br /> <br /> 12 June 2016 Orlando Nightclub Shooting.<br /> <br /> 28 June 2016 Istanbul Airport Attack.<br /> <br /> I'm happy to generate summary lines similar to others in the attack list. Thanks!<br /> <br /> &lt;!-- Write your request ABOVE this line and do not remove the tildes below. --&gt;<br /> [[User:Snowman1776|Snowman1776]] ([[User talk:Snowman1776|talk]]) 16:50, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> :{{Not done}} - Please read the rest of this page.- [[user: MrX|Mr]][[user talk:MrX|X]] 16:54, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> :: Too involved. Don't close requests. --[[User:DHeyward|DHeyward]] ([[User talk:DHeyward|talk]]) 17:22, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::The more I see of this page, the more it seems that the &quot;List of... &quot; format is a disaster waiting to happen. The motive for some of the attacks is not as easy to pin down as the mainstream media or armchair experts on Islamic radicalism seem to think. As I've also said, there is a risk of a [[false dilemma]] when an attack may have had a range of different motives.--'''''[[User:ianmacm|&lt;span style=&quot;background:#88b;color:#cff;font-variant:small-caps&quot;&gt;♦Ian&lt;span style=&quot;background:#99c&quot;&gt;Ma&lt;span style=&quot;background:#aad&quot;&gt;c&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;M♦&lt;/span&gt;]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:ianmacm|(talk to me)]]&lt;/sup&gt;''''' 17:27, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::: The page is fully protected due to a content dispute largely brought on by a breitbart article. The request is asking to continue that dispute. There's no reason an involved person cannot answer. Heck, no sources were provided either. [[User:EvergreenFir|'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:#8b00ff;&quot;&gt;Eve&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#6528c2;&quot;&gt;rgr&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#3f5184;&quot;&gt;een&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#197947;&quot;&gt;Fir&lt;/span&gt;''']] [[User talk:EvergreenFir|(talk)]] &lt;small&gt;Please &amp;#123;&amp;#123;[[Template:re|re]]&amp;#125;&amp;#125;&lt;/small&gt; 17:38, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::: {{re|ianmacm}} Perhaps but another problem is the difference between &quot;the&quot; motive and &quot;a&quot; motive. No one seems to doubt that this was violence against LGBT people but there is much less evidence of that connection. Nevertheless, both islamic terrorism and anti-LGBT can be a motive and we are not limited to a single list. Islamic terrorists execute gay people routinely so the lists can intersect. Why ignore all the sources that say it was Islamist terrorism? The Boston bombing was at least as complicated. --[[User:DHeyward|DHeyward]] ([[User talk:DHeyward|talk]]) 17:47, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::::The regular Wikipedia editors are agreed that mass shootings, bombings etc may have various motives. This page has degenerated into a mess because it sees things in black and white rather than shades of grey. As for the [[2016 Istanbul Atatürk Airport attack]], the Turkish government has blamed ISIL but there is as ever scope for debate.--'''''[[User:ianmacm|&lt;span style=&quot;background:#88b;color:#cff;font-variant:small-caps&quot;&gt;♦Ian&lt;span style=&quot;background:#99c&quot;&gt;Ma&lt;span style=&quot;background:#aad&quot;&gt;c&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;M♦&lt;/span&gt;]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:ianmacm|(talk to me)]]&lt;/sup&gt;''''' 17:58, 1 July 2016 (UTC) <br /> :::Anyone can close requests. Your demand is declined.- [[user: MrX|Mr]][[user talk:MrX|X]] 17:51, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> :Ongoing RFC above. Please join there. [[User:EvergreenFir|'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:#8b00ff;&quot;&gt;Eve&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#6528c2;&quot;&gt;rgr&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#3f5184;&quot;&gt;een&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#197947;&quot;&gt;Fir&lt;/span&gt;''']] [[User talk:EvergreenFir|(talk)]] &lt;small&gt;Please &amp;#123;&amp;#123;[[Template:re|re]]&amp;#125;&amp;#125;&lt;/small&gt; 17:35, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::The RfC only concerns Orlando. Can we get some views on Turkey? -- [[user:zzuuzz|zzuuzz]] &lt;sup&gt;[[user_talk:zzuuzz|(talk)]]&lt;/sup&gt; 17:40, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::: Currently discussed at [[#June 28 Ataturk airport bombing]] [[User:EvergreenFir|'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:#8b00ff;&quot;&gt;Eve&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#6528c2;&quot;&gt;rgr&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#3f5184;&quot;&gt;een&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#197947;&quot;&gt;Fir&lt;/span&gt;''']] [[User talk:EvergreenFir|(talk)]] &lt;small&gt;Please &amp;#123;&amp;#123;[[Template:re|re]]&amp;#125;&amp;#125;&lt;/small&gt; 17:45, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::I'm pretty much through with the RfC about Orlando because it has been [[WP:MEAT|meatpuppeted]] by Breitbart. The main concern now is whether this page has a viable format due to the difficulty in extracting a [[Boolean algebra|Boolean]] yes/no answer for the motive.--'''''[[User:ianmacm|&lt;span style=&quot;background:#88b;color:#cff;font-variant:small-caps&quot;&gt;♦Ian&lt;span style=&quot;background:#99c&quot;&gt;Ma&lt;span style=&quot;background:#aad&quot;&gt;c&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;M♦&lt;/span&gt;]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:ianmacm|(talk to me)]]&lt;/sup&gt;''''' 17:42, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::I disagree. I think the RFC is still valid. It doesn't matter how people noticed this issue. The RFC header itself advises that if you came here as a result of a message off wiki, please adhere to our guidelines. It goes on to say &quot;However, you are invited to participate and your opinion is welcome.&quot; If the users you claim were brought here as a result of reading a Breitbart article, then their opinions are as valid as yours, provided they adhere to our guidelines. If you believe the result should not be valid, please seek consensus to change the RFC process. That it is not going the way you wish is not a reason to try to derail the result. [[User:Mr Ernie|Mr Ernie]] ([[User talk:Mr Ernie|talk]]) 19:12, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == WikiProject Conservatism? ==<br /> <br /> Obviously this page should belong to WikiProject Islam and WikiProject Terrorism, but I think that including it in WikiProject Conservatism could be considered a form of canvassing. I'm firmly on the Breitbart side of the Orlando Nightclub Shooting debacle, but I think in general the association of this list with a political philosophy is a negative thing. There is no fundamental philosophical connection between political conservatism and Islam, political conservatives simply tend to have similar views on the issue. I have no problem with political conservatives who want to ensure that Islamic/ist terrorism is handled honestly on Wikipedia joining WP Islam or WP Terrorism, in fact that would be an excellent idea. But this list is no more related to conservatism than liberalism, and drawing a host of ideological people to this talk page to battle one another is not a good thing. [[User:Brianbleakley|Brianbleakley]] ([[User talk:Brianbleakley|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Brianbleakley|contribs]]) 19:35, 1 July 2016 (UTC)</div> Battlefront228 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:List_of_Islamist_terrorist_attacks&diff=727871919 Talk:List of Islamist terrorist attacks 2016-07-01T19:38:06Z <p>Battlefront228: /* Survey */</p> <hr /> <div>{{Old AfD multi| date = 3 April 2014 (UTC) | result = '''keep''' | page = List of Islamic terrorist attacks }} <br /> {{WikiProjectBannerShell|1=<br /> {{WikiProject Terrorism|class=List|importance=Top}}<br /> {{WikiProject Islam|Islam and Controversy=yes|class=List|importance=High}}<br /> {{WikiProject Politics|class=List|importance=High}}<br /> {{WikiProject Conservatism|class=List|importance=Mid}}<br /> }}<br /> {{press | author=Lucas, Nolan|date=June 30, 2016|url=http://www.breitbart.com/tech/2016/06/30/wikipedia-removes-orlando-shooting-islamist-terror-attack-list/?utm_source=facebook&amp;utm_medium=social |title=Wikipedia Removes Orlando Shooting From ‘Islamist Terror Attack’ List|org=''[[Breitbart]]''}}<br /> {{User:MiszaBot/config<br /> |archiveheader = {{talk archive navigation}}<br /> |maxarchivesize = 100K<br /> |counter = 3<br /> |minthreadsleft = 2<br /> |minthreadstoarchive = 1<br /> |algo = old(90d)<br /> |archive = Talk:List of Islamist terrorist attacks/Archive %(counter)d<br /> }}<br /> {{User:HBC Archive Indexerbot/OptIn |target=/Archive index |mask=/Archive &lt;#&gt; |leading_zeros=0 |indexhere=yes}}<br /> {{Archive box|auto=yes|search=yes | bot = Lowercase sigmabot III | age = 90 |index=/Archive index}}<br /> <br /> ==Attacks in Israel==<br /> I realize there have been an enormous debate about what to label as &quot;islamic terrorism&quot;, I would just like to point out to the fact that there is an abnormally large amount of attacks listed in Israel that have been considered as religiously motivated rather than politically. Has anyone checked to see if the claim is supported by reliable sources? [[User:Makeandtoss|Makeandtoss]] ([[User talk:Makeandtoss|talk]]) 14:37, 4 April 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Switching to boxes ==<br /> <br /> Currently working on the attacks from 2002-2009, so if you were about to work on them, don't waste your time. I should be done very soon. [[User:Ralphw|Ralphw]] ([[User talk:Ralphw|talk]]) 00:52, 3 May 2016 (UTC)<br /> :I just finished the 2002 one, I'm going to try and finish the next years during the next week or so. [[User:Ralphw|Ralphw]] ([[User talk:Ralphw|talk]]) 03:17, 3 May 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::What's the status of this? [[User:Natureium|Natureium]] ([[User talk:Natureium|talk]]) 18:27, 29 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ==Flags==<br /> Why exactly have the flags that were here until the 1st of May 2016 been removed and replaced with country names alone? [[Special:Contributions/119.224.86.235|119.224.86.235]] ([[User talk:119.224.86.235|talk]]) 01:23, 13 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :My guess is [[WP:FLAGCRUFT]]. But not sure. We really don't need flags generally. [[User:EvergreenFir|'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:#8b00ff;&quot;&gt;Eve&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#6528c2;&quot;&gt;rgr&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#3f5184;&quot;&gt;een&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#197947;&quot;&gt;Fir&lt;/span&gt;''']] [[User talk:EvergreenFir|(talk)]] &lt;small&gt;Please &amp;#123;&amp;#123;[[Template:re|re]]&amp;#125;&amp;#125;&lt;/small&gt; 01:43, 13 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::As I wrote in my [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_Islamist_terrorist_attacks&amp;diff=718020549&amp;oldid=718018377 edit summary] when I removed them, [[WP:WORDPRECEDENT|Words as the primary means of communication]]/[[WP:EGG]], [[MOS:FLAG]], and [[Talk:List of Islamist terrorist attacks/Archive 3#RFc for major restructuring]], where the closer noted &quot;strong support for no flags&quot;. —&amp;nbsp;[[User:Malik Shabazz|Malik Shabazz]]&amp;nbsp;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Malik Shabazz|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt;/&lt;sub&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Malik Shabazz|Stalk]]&lt;/sub&gt; 02:34, 13 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::: IMO, the flags were helpful to quickly see which country the attack happened in, but if it's against the wiki rules, I'm not even going to argue. [[User:R00b07|R00b07]] ([[User talk:R00b07|talk]]) 02:02, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == 'Splain, Lucy. ==<br /> <br /> {{ping|Malik Shabazz}} [[Christian terrorism]]. No one had to invent a new word—Christist, Christianist, ''papist'' (gasp! the offensiveness!), whatever—to describe ''that'', and that's considered perfectly NPOV. Why would &quot;Islamic&quot; be any different, especially given that the main article is [[Islamic terrorism]]? '''''[[User:Jujutsuan|&lt;font color=&quot;green&quot;&gt;Jujutsuan&lt;/font&gt;]]''''' (&lt;small&gt;Please notify with &amp;#123;&amp;#123;[[Template:re|re]]&amp;#125;&amp;#125;&lt;/small&gt; &amp;#124; [[User talk:Jujutsuan|talk]] &amp;#x7C; [[Special:Contributions/Jujutsuan|contribs]]) 03:02, 13 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :if you don't understand the difference between Islamic and Islamist, [[wiktionary]] is that way. —&amp;nbsp;[[User:Malik Shabazz|Malik Shabazz]]&amp;nbsp;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Malik Shabazz|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt;/&lt;sub&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Malik Shabazz|Stalk]]&lt;/sub&gt; 03:09, 13 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::Ever heard of [[WP:CIVIL]]? You started with the attitude in your snarky edit summary. I know the difference. But a Muslim committing an act of terrorism ''in the name of Islam'' is, by definition, [[Islamic terrorism]]. Islamism is a relgio-political ideology, and one source, but not the only source, of [[Islamic terrorism]]. And the main page is called [[Islamic terrorism]]. Have I mentioned that the main page is called [[Islamic terrorism|IslamIC terrorism]]?? '''''[[User:Jujutsuan|&lt;font color=&quot;green&quot;&gt;Jujutsuan&lt;/font&gt;]]''''' (&lt;small&gt;Please notify with &amp;#123;&amp;#123;[[Template:re|re]]&amp;#125;&amp;#125;&lt;/small&gt; &amp;#124; [[User talk:Jujutsuan|talk]] &amp;#x7C; [[Special:Contributions/Jujutsuan|contribs]]) 03:13, 13 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::Have I mentioned that I don't give a *bleep* what the morons who edit the &quot;main page&quot; choose to call it? This is a list of Islamist attacks, and has been since it was moved to this title (following a [[Talk:List of Islamist terrorist attacks/Archive 2#Requested move 26 March 2015|move discussion]]) more than a year ago. Did you think that maybe you should move the other article to match this article's title? The morons who edit that page can't agree what it's about or find a source for their made-up '''definition''' of what &quot;Islamic terrorism&quot; is. So while that article is fully protected, you come here, to an article you probably never even read before today, and move it. Nice work. And ''I'' have some &quot;'splaining&quot; to do. Nice touch. Have I mentioned that I don't give a fuck what the morons who edit the &quot;main page&quot; choose to call it? —&amp;nbsp;[[User:Malik Shabazz|Malik Shabazz]]&amp;nbsp;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Malik Shabazz|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt;/&lt;sub&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Malik Shabazz|Stalk]]&lt;/sub&gt; 03:35, 13 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::List articles don't set precedent of any degree of force. That's the privilege of main articles, which lists by default aren't. Yes, you have, about three times. How original of you. You've also mentioned that they're morons (and me too, by extension), plus vulgarities. &quot;Nice work.&quot; (See, I give attribution when I copy something.) '''''[[User:Jujutsuan|&lt;font color=&quot;green&quot;&gt;Jujutsuan&lt;/font&gt;]]''''' (&lt;small&gt;Please notify with &amp;#123;&amp;#123;[[Template:re|re]]&amp;#125;&amp;#125;&lt;/small&gt; &amp;#124; [[User talk:Jujutsuan|talk]] &amp;#x7C; [[Special:Contributions/Jujutsuan|contribs]]) 03:43, 13 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::::Malik's point about the meaning of the terms is correct, even if accompanied by incivilities. The move is contested. I agree with Malik's point; the attacks are Islamist (based in fundamentalist or radical Islam). [[User:EvergreenFir|'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:#8b00ff;&quot;&gt;Eve&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#6528c2;&quot;&gt;rgr&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#3f5184;&quot;&gt;een&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#197947;&quot;&gt;Fir&lt;/span&gt;''']] [[User talk:EvergreenFir|(talk)]] &lt;small&gt;Please &amp;#123;&amp;#123;[[Template:re|re]]&amp;#125;&amp;#125;&lt;/small&gt; 04:32, 13 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::Also agree with Malik and EvergreenFir. You're obviously around long enough to know about the requirement for agreement on contentious moves. [[User:Bastun|&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Verdana, sans-serif&quot;&gt;Bastun&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Bastun|Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!]]&lt;/sup&gt; 09:19, 13 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Orlando shooting ==<br /> <br /> I have removed the 2016 Orlando nightclub shooting from this list. It does not meet the stated inclusion criteria for the list. The fact that ISIL has, via their media agency, made such a claim does not make it true. The FBI has not made such a determination. Including this entry in this article violates a number of Wikipedia policies including [[WP:OR]] and [[WP:NPOV]].- [[user: MrX|Mr]][[user talk:MrX|X]] 20:31, 19 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :Reverted removal per [[WP:BRD]]. Let's see...<br /> :*Terror attacks... check.<br /> :*by Islamist extremists... check.<br /> :*to further a '''perceived''' Islamic religious or political cause... check.<br /> :*have occurred globally... Orlando is on earth: check.<br /> :*The attackers have used such tactics as arson, vehicle rampage attacks, bomb threats, suicide attacks, bombings, '''spree shooting''', stabbings, hijackings, kidnappings and beheadings... check.<br /> :*The following is a list of Islamist terrorist attacks that have received significant press coverage since 1980... check.<br /> :The FBI is not the only RS to consider. Plenty of RS have determined it was an Islamic terrorist attack. Deserves inclusion. '''''[[User:Jujutsuan|&lt;font color=&quot;green&quot;&gt;Jujutsuan&lt;/font&gt;]]''''' (&lt;small&gt;Please notify with &amp;#123;&amp;#123;[[Template:re|re]]&amp;#125;&amp;#125;&lt;/small&gt; &amp;#124; [[User talk:Jujutsuan|talk]] &amp;#x7C; [[Special:Contributions/Jujutsuan|contribs]]) 20:48, 19 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::*Please cite one or more reliable sources that says that the Orlando shooting was conducted by &quot;Islamic extremists&quot;.<br /> ::*Please cite one or more reliable sources that state that Mateen was trying to further an &quot;Islamic religious or political cause&quot;<br /> :::Note that ISIL's media agency is not a reliable source for anything. Note also that the media speculation is not a substitute for facts.- [[user: MrX|Mr]][[user talk:MrX|X]] 21:06, 19 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::I've had misgivings about the Orlando shooting from the beginning. A [http://www.dictionary.com/browse/local-yokel local yokel] announced that the shooter in a homophobic mass shooting had pledged allegiance to ISIL, NBC News announced it as if it were a fact, and all the world media ran with it, sometimes attributing it to NBC News and sometimes not. That doesn't make a homophobic mass shooting an Islamist terrorist attack. How about citing a real expert in Islamism or terrorism? —&amp;nbsp;[[User:Malik Shabazz|Malik Shabazz]]&amp;nbsp;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Malik Shabazz|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt;/&lt;sub&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Malik Shabazz|Stalk]]&lt;/sub&gt; 21:59, 19 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::Agreed. By later accounts, this appears to have been a combination of some mixed up homophobia/self-hate with some attempted justification on the part of the perpetrator and bandwagon-jumping by ISIL. [[User:Bastun|&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Verdana, sans-serif&quot;&gt;Bastun&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Bastun|Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!]]&lt;/sup&gt; 22:49, 19 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::{{ec}} The case for calling this an &quot;Islamist terrorist attack&quot; is very weak if we follow the sources that I've seen. The sources in the article simple do not support the material in the article. The Daily Mail article says that &quot;ISIS has claimed responsibility&quot;. ISIS is a fringe source and their view can't be asserted in Wikipedia's voice. The Washington Post article merely says that Mateen pledged allegiance to ISIL{{emdash}}again, insufficient for making a conclusion that the shooting was an &quot;Islamist terrorist attack&quot; in Wikipedia's voice. Someone needs to present sources that actually says the Orlando shooting was an Islamist terrorist attack, or it has to be removed per [[WP:V]] and [[WP:OR]]. {{U|Jujutsuan}}, you said {{tq|&quot;Plenty of RS have determined it was an Islamic terrorist attack.&quot;}} Please provide links to some sources that actually say that. - [[user: MrX|Mr]][[user talk:MrX|X]] 23:09, 19 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::::Is [http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/13/us/orlando-nightclub-shooting.html?_r=0 NYT] good enough for you? Not to mention the ''[http://www.nationalreview.com/article/436507/orlando-attack-was-islamic-terrorism-obama-still-refuses-name-it National Review]'' (POV, yes, but reputable) and [http://www.cbsnews.com/news/orlando-shooting-investigation-gunman-omar-mateen-911-call/ CBS]. He pledged allegiance to ISIS; that can ''only mean'' he was an Islamic terrorist, at least in his own mind (which is, incidentally, what makes someone an ''Islamic'' terrorist instead of just a generic terrorist; ISIS leadership didn't have to plan it or have any contact with Mateen in order for him to have done it in their name and according to (his interpretation of) their ideology/exegesis.). No &quot;experts on Islamism&quot; are needed to confirm the obvious when he's stated his motives in plain English. It doesn't even matter if it was a secondary motive; it was still at least part of his rationale. '''''[[User:Jujutsuan|&lt;font color=&quot;green&quot;&gt;Jujutsuan&lt;/font&gt;]]''''' (&lt;small&gt;Please notify with &amp;#123;&amp;#123;[[Template:re|re]]&amp;#125;&amp;#125;&lt;/small&gt; &amp;#124; [[User talk:Jujutsuan|talk]] &amp;#x7C; [[Special:Contributions/Jujutsuan|contribs]]) 00:27, 20 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::::::None of those sources state that the shooting was an &quot;Islamist terrorist attack&quot;. In fact, one source says that according to FBI Director James Comey, &quot;the shooter’s past comments about Islamist groups were &quot;inflammatory and contradictory.&quot;. - [[user: MrX|Mr]][[user talk:MrX|X]] 00:41, 20 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::::::The ''National Review'' may (or may not) be reputable, but it is absolutely not a [[WP:reliable source|reliable source]] for facts. And why are the other two sources nearly a week old? Have authorities learned nothing about the attack since last Monday morning? —&amp;nbsp;[[User:MShabazz|MShabazz]]&amp;nbsp;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Malik Shabazz|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt;/&lt;sub&gt;[[Special:Contributions/MShabazz|Stalk]]&lt;/sub&gt; 01:12, 20 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::::::I'm conflicted on this at the moment. We do &quot;variability, not truth&quot;, but RS are starting to cast doubt on the event as being Islamist extremism/terrorism. The classification as &quot;Islamist&quot; is what's being questioned. Since there's &quot;no deadline&quot; and all, it may be prudent to exclude it for now until a more firm conclusion is given by investigators. At the same time, if it is included, it can always be removed if things change. [[User:EvergreenFir|'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:#8b00ff;&quot;&gt;Eve&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#6528c2;&quot;&gt;rgr&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#3f5184;&quot;&gt;een&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#197947;&quot;&gt;Fir&lt;/span&gt;''']] [[User talk:EvergreenFir|(talk)]] &lt;small&gt;Please &amp;#123;&amp;#123;[[Template:re|re]]&amp;#125;&amp;#125;&lt;/small&gt; 02:07, 20 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::::::::Regarding ''National Review'', [[WP:BIASED]] says: &lt;font color=green&gt;&quot;Wikipedia articles are required to present a neutral point of view. However, reliable sources are not required to be neutral, unbiased, or objective.&quot;&lt;/font&gt; So why exactly is it not RS-worthy??<br /> :::::::::Regarding your other complaints, it has been determined that he swore his allegiance to ISIS (confused, contradictory, or otherwise). Are you saying ISIS isn't Islamist or Islamic terrorist? This is really very simple. '''''[[User:Jujutsuan|&lt;font color=&quot;green&quot;&gt;Jujutsuan&lt;/font&gt;]]''''' (&lt;small&gt;Please notify with &amp;#123;&amp;#123;[[Template:re|re]]&amp;#125;&amp;#125;&lt;/small&gt; &amp;#124; [[User talk:Jujutsuan|talk]] &amp;#x7C; [[Special:Contributions/Jujutsuan|contribs]]) 03:39, 20 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::::::::Him swearing allegiance matters less than how RS characterize the attack. I may be determined his actions were not Islamist terrorism despite him trying to make them appear to be so. But what matters here is what RS call it. That's why I'm conflicted: RS characterizations of events are changing as the information available changes. So too must Wikipedia change in response to the RS. But if we see things are influx, contradictory, or being questioned by top-quality RS and investigators alike, we do have the option to postpone our decisions pending further information. There is not deadline and no need to publish the latest, breaking news (NOTNEWS after all). I think within a week we'll have a better idea of what to do. Until then, I'm not going to commit one way or the other. [[User:EvergreenFir|'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:#8b00ff;&quot;&gt;Eve&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#6528c2;&quot;&gt;rgr&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#3f5184;&quot;&gt;een&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#197947;&quot;&gt;Fir&lt;/span&gt;''']] [[User talk:EvergreenFir|(talk)]] &lt;small&gt;Please &amp;#123;&amp;#123;[[Template:re|re]]&amp;#125;&amp;#125;&lt;/small&gt; 03:59, 20 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::::::::::Produce the RS that contradicts the claim that he was a self-radicalized islamic terrorist. [[User:Mrdthree|Mrdthree]] ([[User talk:Mrdthree|talk]]) 12:17, 20 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::::::::The world's asylums are full of people who claim they're [[Napoleon]]. If one of them attacks a psychiatric nurse, we don't attribute the attack to the [[First French Empire|French Empire]] - even if clickbaity tabloids or reactionary sources do. [[User:Bastun|&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Verdana, sans-serif&quot;&gt;Bastun&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Bastun|Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!]]&lt;/sup&gt; 08:56, 20 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::::::::::The Director of the FBI said he was a self radicalized islamic extremist. Your are making unsourced speculation [[User:Mrdthree|Mrdthree]] ([[User talk:Mrdthree|talk]]) 12:17, 20 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::::::::::Here's a quote and source: {{tq|In fact, intelligence officials and investigators say they're &quot;becoming increasingly convinced that the motive for this attack had very little — or maybe nothing — to do with ISIS.&quot;}} [http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2016/06/18/482621690/investigators-say-orlando-shooter-showed-few-warning-signs-of-radicalization]. Also check out [https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2016/06/13/omar-mateen-may-not-have-understood-the-difference-between-isis-al-qaeda-and-hezbollah/]. There's questions being raised by investigators about whether or not this was truly Islamist terrorism or just someone using it as an excuse/cover. [[User:EvergreenFir|'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:#8b00ff;&quot;&gt;Eve&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#6528c2;&quot;&gt;rgr&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#3f5184;&quot;&gt;een&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#197947;&quot;&gt;Fir&lt;/span&gt;''']] [[User talk:EvergreenFir|(talk)]] &lt;small&gt;Please &amp;#123;&amp;#123;[[Template:re|re]]&amp;#125;&amp;#125;&lt;/small&gt; 20:45, 20 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::::::::::::Again the NPR story is the only source on the claim and its based on anonymous sources that contradict the statements of officials on the record, including the president. The other story is about a comment he made to coworkers 3 years earlier. It is grasping at straws to psychoanalyze a dead man who had no psychiatric problems to the point that it overrides what he said he did when its consistent with his past behavior.[[User:Mrdthree|Mrdthree]] ([[User talk:Mrdthree|talk]]) 22:28, 21 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::Multiple official and news sources stated that the killer is a terrorist. Multiple official and news sources say that he was a self-radicalized islamist. Deeper investigation into triggers are speculative. A growing list is below.[[User:Mrdthree|Mrdthree]] ([[User talk:Mrdthree|talk]]) 10:25, 20 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::: Miami Herald: http://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/community/miami-dade/article83819372.html, 'Terror enemy No. 1: Lone wolves like Orlando killer Omar Mateen'; cites President Obama President Barack Obama said “it is increasingly clear” that the killer, a U.S. citizen, became “radicalized” by “extremist information and propaganda over the internet”. Comey, the FBI director, said no evidence gathered so far pointed to a “plot directed from outside the United States” or that the killer was a member of a foreign terrorist organization.[[User:Mrdthree|Mrdthree]] ([[User talk:Mrdthree|talk]]) 10:25, 20 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::: http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2016/06/orlando-shooters-motives-remain-unclear.html 'As Profile of Orlando Shooter Develops, Questions About His Motives Remain' But while nothing we've learned from further investigation into Mateen’s life has invalidated the theory that he was ultimately motivated by Islamic extremism, a profile has developed which, at this point, may align better with a typical mass-shooter than a man who was solely inspired by ISIS to become a jihadist.[[User:Mrdthree|Mrdthree]] ([[User talk:Mrdthree|talk]]) 10:25, 20 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::: http://www.cbsnews.com/news/fbi-to-release-transcript-of-calls-between-orlando-gunman-omar-mateen-police/ FBI to release transcript of calls between Orlando gunman, police At this point, Lynch said investigators do not have any information that reveals Mateen was being directed from overseas terrorist networks. Investigators, however, have found evidence of online radicalization.[[User:Mrdthree|Mrdthree]] ([[User talk:Mrdthree|talk]]) 10:25, 20 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/jun/13/pulse-nightclub-attack-shooter-radicalized-internet-orlando FBI and Obama confirm Omar Mateen was radicalized on the internet. 'Comey added that he was “highly confident” that Mateen had been radicalized at least in part online. In chorus with Obama he emphasized that there continued to be no evidence, however, of any direct plot, or direction of the shooter, by any foreign group or network.' [[User:Mrdthree|Mrdthree]] ([[User talk:Mrdthree|talk]]) 12:13, 20 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::Er, you do realise '''none''' of those quotes back what you're saying? Quite the opposite, in fact. [[User:Bastun|&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Verdana, sans-serif&quot;&gt;Bastun&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Bastun|Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!]]&lt;/sup&gt; 10:34, 20 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::: They all say he was a self-radicalized islamist. Isnt that what this is about?[[User:Mrdthree|Mrdthree]] ([[User talk:Mrdthree|talk]]) 10:40, 20 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::: So show the good faith brother. Here is the article https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/jun/13/pulse-nightclub-attack-shooter-radicalized-internet-orlando FBI and Obama confirm Omar Mateen was radicalized on the internet. Explain how this disproves he was an islamic radical. [[User:Mrdthree|Mrdthree]] ([[User talk:Mrdthree|talk]]) 12:02, 20 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::* &quot;No evidence gathered so far pointed to a plot directed from outside the US or that the killer was a member of a terrorist org&quot;; <br /> :::::* &quot;a profile has developed which, at this point, may align better with a typical mass-shooter than a man who was solely inspired by ISIS to become a jihadist.&quot;<br /> :::::* &quot;At this point, Lynch said investigators do not have any information that reveals Mateen was being directed from overseas terrorist networks.&quot;<br /> :::::* &quot;there continued to be no evidence, however, of any direct plot, or direction of the shooter, by any foreign group or network.&quot;<br /> :::::These, combined with other sources claiming Mateen was probably gay himself, point to a lone-wolf psychotic rather than any sort of organised terrorism. [[User:Bastun|&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Verdana, sans-serif&quot;&gt;Bastun&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Bastun|Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!]]&lt;/sup&gt; 12:42, 20 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::::: The last item is unsourced speculation. Where does it say this list excludes lone wolf islamic terrorism? [[User:Mrdthree|Mrdthree]] ([[User talk:Mrdthree|talk]]) 12:50, 20 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::::::As Bastun has aptly pointed out, the sources presented immediately above contradict the notion that the shooting was an Islamist terrorist attack. At best, they support the claim &quot;Mateen may have been radicalized over the internet&quot;. That is far too speculative to justify including the shooting on list of Islamist terrorist attacks. [[WP:OP|We simply can't make such leaps of logic]].- [[user: MrX|Mr]][[user talk:MrX|X]] 13:26, 20 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::::::The 911 call he made to the cops don't mention gays at all, it just mentions Islam and ISIL. I find it hard to believe the bending over backwards we see here to not call this Islamist terror. It is very well sourced and should be included. &quot;swears allegiance to ISIS&quot; is the next one down, and this attack is certainly more than that. The bias of editors not withstanding, the sources clearly show the inspiration for this attack.[[User:Sir Joseph|Sir Joseph]] &lt;sup&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;Green&quot;&gt;[[User_talk:Sir Joseph|(talk)]]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/sup&gt; 16:42, 20 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> {{od}}[https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2016/06/20/what-the-orlando-gunman-told-hostage-negotiators-and-dispatchers-during-his-rampage/ &quot;many questions remain unanswered. Investigators do not know ... Mateen’s reasons for attacking the popular LGBT nightspot.&quot;] From an article written '''today''' on the ''Washington Post'' website. Not week-old speculation, but the current status of the investigation. —&amp;nbsp;[[User:Malik Shabazz|Malik Shabazz]]&amp;nbsp;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Malik Shabazz|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt;/&lt;sub&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Malik Shabazz|Stalk]]&lt;/sub&gt; 16:53, 20 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :Right, we don't know everything yet, why he chose that or whatever. But we do know it was Islamic Terrorism. He said as such. The 911 calls say as such and the sources say as such. The shooter pledged support to ISIS, how is that not enough? It was enough for the France incident, it was enough for many other incidents. Why the sudden urge to not include very well sourced information? http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2016/06/19/lynch_partial_transcript_of_orlando_911_calls_will_have_references_to_isis_cut_out.html There is a difference between saying this was an ISIS attack or just saying this was Islamic Terror. We don't know if this was sponsored by ISIL and most likely wasn't, but it was Islamic Terror. Partial Transcript: http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/orlando-nightclub-massacre/fbi-releases-transcripts-911-calls-orlando-massacre-n595626 &quot;In these calls, the shooter, who '''identified himself as an Islamic soldier''', &quot;, &quot;: '''I pledge allegiance to [omitted]''' may God protect him [in Arabic], on behalf of [omitted].&quot; and more.[[User:Sir Joseph|Sir Joseph]] &lt;sup&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;Green&quot;&gt;[[User_talk:Sir Joseph|(talk)]]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/sup&gt; 16:56, 20 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> : You are selectively quoting the source. the source (FBI Assistant Special Agent in Charge Ron Hopper) went on to say ....agents think Mateen “was radicalized domestically,” rather than directed by any foreign terrorist group. This is what every reliable source with named sources states. Not my opinion. [[User:Mrdthree|Mrdthree]] ([[User talk:Mrdthree|talk]]) 05:03, 21 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::See above, re Napoleon. If he'd identified himself as a Martian, that still wouldn't make it an act of interplanetary terrorism. Per plenty of sources, the perpetrator seems to have been a disturbed individual, probably gay himself, which caused him all sorts of mental problems given his apparent contradictory religious beliefs. [[User:Bastun|&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Verdana, sans-serif&quot;&gt;Bastun&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Bastun|Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!]]&lt;/sup&gt; 18:22, 20 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::I guess that's one way to make sure there is no list of Islamic Terror acts. [[User:Sir Joseph|Sir Joseph]] &lt;sup&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;Green&quot;&gt;[[User_talk:Sir Joseph|(talk)]]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/sup&gt; 18:28, 20 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::No. It's one way to ensure that the list of Islam'''''ist''''' (notice the difference, it's important) terrorist acts - which I've added to myself - is '''accurate'''. [[User:Bastun|&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Verdana, sans-serif&quot;&gt;Bastun&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Bastun|Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!]]&lt;/sup&gt; 18:43, 20 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::* [https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/troubled-quiet-macho-angry-the-volatile-life-of-omar-mateen/2016/06/17/15229250-34a6-11e6-8758-d58e76e11b12_story.html &quot;Mateen appeared conflicted about his religion and his sexuality, according to dozens of interviews with those who knew him. He married twice, each time to a woman he had met online, even though he also seemed drawn to gay life and culture.&quot;]<br /> :::::* [http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/orlando-shooter-omar-mateen-had-gay-tendencies-according-to-ex-wife-as-pulse-patron-say-attacker-was-a7081041.html Orlando shooter Omar Mateen's ex-wife says he had 'gay tendencies' as Pulse patron describes attacker as 'a regular']<br /> :::::* [http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/news/orlando-shooter-omar-mateen-was-gay-former-classma/nrfwW/ The FBI is investigating reports that Orlando nightclub shooter Omar Mateen used gay dating apps and regularly visited Pulse before he shot more than 100 people inside, killing 49. One man said Mateen had asked him out, while another said they had chatted on a dating app].<br /> :::::Hardly your average Islamist terrorist... [[User:Bastun|&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Verdana, sans-serif&quot;&gt;Bastun&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Bastun|Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!]]&lt;/sup&gt; 19:11, 20 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::::Are you saying a gay person can't be a terrorist? Read the news today, there is no mention of his sexuality in the 911 transcripts, only Islam and terrorism related information was in the 911 call. [[User:Sir Joseph|Sir Joseph]] &lt;sup&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;Green&quot;&gt;[[User_talk:Sir Joseph|(talk)]]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/sup&gt; 19:40, 20 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::::I am saying the issue is a lot more complicated than &quot;He phoned 911 and said he was an Islamist terrorist&quot;. [[User:Bastun|&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Verdana, sans-serif&quot;&gt;Bastun&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Bastun|Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!]]&lt;/sup&gt; 19:48, 20 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::::::Then start to remove many of the items on the list where the &quot;terrorist claimed allegiance to ISIS.&quot; The DOJ just released the full transcript and again, no mention of gays, only Islam. [[User:Sir Joseph|Sir Joseph]] &lt;sup&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;Green&quot;&gt;[[User_talk:Sir Joseph|(talk)]]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/sup&gt; 20:04, 20 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::::::Er... why would you expect a mention of gays?! [[User:Bastun|&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Verdana, sans-serif&quot;&gt;Bastun&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Bastun|Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!]]&lt;/sup&gt; 20:07, 20 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::::::::From the 911 call from the gay club? Isn't it surprising that the killer didn't mention gays once, yet spoke about Islam? Again, he self-identified as a muslim terrorist, I fail to see the need to bend over backwards to have this labeled as a regulr shooting and not Islamic Terror. [[User:Sir Joseph|Sir Joseph]] &lt;sup&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;Green&quot;&gt;[[User_talk:Sir Joseph|(talk)]]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/sup&gt; 20:22, 20 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::::::::Once again - Islam'''ist''', not Islamic. I think your POV is showing... Still not sure why you think the 911 call needs to have mentioned gays, and I think it's irrelevant. What is relevant is that the person who murdered multiple gay people at a gay nightclub appears to have been a regular customer and was apparently gay himself. Which is not common among Islamist terrorists... [[User:Bastun|&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Verdana, sans-serif&quot;&gt;Bastun&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Bastun|Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!]]&lt;/sup&gt; 20:38, 20 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::::::::::Yes, but we cannot SYNTH one way or the other. RS reported it as Islamist terrorist at first. They're starting to question that (e.g., [http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2016/06/18/482621690/investigators-say-orlando-shooter-showed-few-warning-signs-of-radicalization]). As I said before, I can see a reason for inclusion here based on initial reporting, but we need to be prepared to remove or alter based on future reporting and investigation. If it comes to light that Mateen only used ISIL as a cover or excuse for his actions, but investigators find that this was a &quot;typical&quot; mass shooting, we need to remove it from here. That it's being questioned also justifies exclusion from the list until we have a firmer understanding of events and, more importantly, motive. [[User:EvergreenFir|'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:#8b00ff;&quot;&gt;Eve&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#6528c2;&quot;&gt;rgr&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#3f5184;&quot;&gt;een&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#197947;&quot;&gt;Fir&lt;/span&gt;''']] [[User talk:EvergreenFir|(talk)]] &lt;small&gt;Please &amp;#123;&amp;#123;[[Template:re|re]]&amp;#125;&amp;#125;&lt;/small&gt; 20:48, 20 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::::::::::::normally reliable but it's totally dependent on anonymous sources that contradict official statements. As a primary source it's quality is low.[[Special:Contributions/126.155.46.56|126.155.46.56]] ([[User talk:126.155.46.56|talk]]) 22:47, 20 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::::::::::::A primary source backed by unnamed claims of sources is not reliable. There are no reliable sources claiming he was not an islamist. [[User:Mrdthree|Mrdthree]] ([[User talk:Mrdthree|talk]]) 05:03, 21 June 2016 (UTC) <br /> ::::::::::::PS - please avoid mental illness labels. We do not know if Mateen was ill or not, and using things like &quot;psychotic&quot; to describe him and other shooters is unwarranted and, in this case, a violation of BDP. [[User:EvergreenFir|'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:#8b00ff;&quot;&gt;Eve&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#6528c2;&quot;&gt;rgr&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#3f5184;&quot;&gt;een&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#197947;&quot;&gt;Fir&lt;/span&gt;''']] [[User talk:EvergreenFir|(talk)]] &lt;small&gt;Please &amp;#123;&amp;#123;[[Template:re|re]]&amp;#125;&amp;#125;&lt;/small&gt; 20:50, 20 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::::::::::::You're correct, of course, about my use of the mental illness label - apologies. [[User:Bastun|&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Verdana, sans-serif&quot;&gt;Bastun&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Bastun|Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!]]&lt;/sup&gt; 21:34, 20 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::::::::::whether or not he was a member of ISIS is a red herring. He was investigated by the FBI as a radical Islamist twice before. Public statements made by named government sources in multiple primary sources say he was radicalized.[[Special:Contributions/126.155.46.56|126.155.46.56]] ([[User talk:126.155.46.56|talk]]) 22:47, 20 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::::::::::Not quite. &quot;[http://time.com/4368439/orlando-shooting-omar-mateen-fbi-investigation-dropped/ ...the bureau had investigated and interrogated Omar Mateen on three occasions over the last three years on '''''suspicion''''' he '''''might''''' have been a radicalized Islamic terrorist.&quot;] Of course, the FBI didn't pursue it because no crimes had been committed, and our system of justice is based on [[presumption of innocence]]. Saying that Mateen might have been &quot;radicalized&quot; is not the same as saying that the nightclub shooting was an &quot;Islamist terrorist attack&quot;. Wikipedia does not permit [[WP:OR]].- [[user: MrX|Mr]][[user talk:MrX|X]] 23:43, 20 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::::::::::::The conclusion of the FBI was that he was a radical muslim but not a criminal. He came under investigation because his extremism alarmed fellow muslims https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2016/06/20/i-reported-omar-mateen-to-the-fbi-trump-is-wrong-that-muslims-dont-do-our-part/ [[User:Mrdthree|Mrdthree]] ([[User talk:Mrdthree|talk]]) 04:54, 21 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::::::::::::Good context, but not RS in terms of use in article. [[User:EvergreenFir|'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:#8b00ff;&quot;&gt;Eve&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#6528c2;&quot;&gt;rgr&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#3f5184;&quot;&gt;een&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#197947;&quot;&gt;Fir&lt;/span&gt;''']] [[User talk:EvergreenFir|(talk)]] &lt;small&gt;Please &amp;#123;&amp;#123;[[Template:re|re]]&amp;#125;&amp;#125;&lt;/small&gt; 05:08, 21 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::::::::::::::The article has an FBI official confirm his story-- why isnt it an RS? In particular as evidence for his sympathies and beliefs shared with Anwar Alawaki[[User:Mrdthree|Mrdthree]] ([[User talk:Mrdthree|talk]]) 22:15, 21 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::::::::::::::Because things categorized as opinion pieces (which that is) are not [[WP:RS]]. We can attribute statements directly to the author if we think they're an authority on a certain issue. But better to use [[WP:SECONDARY]] sources. [[User:EvergreenFir|'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:#8b00ff;&quot;&gt;Eve&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#6528c2;&quot;&gt;rgr&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#3f5184;&quot;&gt;een&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#197947;&quot;&gt;Fir&lt;/span&gt;''']] [[User talk:EvergreenFir|(talk)]] &lt;small&gt;Please &amp;#123;&amp;#123;[[Template:re|re]]&amp;#125;&amp;#125;&lt;/small&gt; 22:18, 21 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> So suppose he had a gay affair (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3653734/Puerto-Rican-man-claiming-Orlando-shooter-s-gay-lover-describes-friends-benefits-relationship-says-attack-revenge-Omar-Mateen-discovered-one-men-d-threesome-HIV-positive.html) became concerned about having AIDS and then in a fit of revenge and reactionary religious fervor (saw his condition as the fulfillment of religious law) he attacked the nightclub. Does this rule in or rule out? (Speculating now so prob done for while) [[User:Mrdthree|Mrdthree]] ([[User talk:Mrdthree|talk]]) 07:20, 22 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :I think perhaps you may need to read policies such as [[WP:RS]], [[WP:V]], [[WP:NPOV]] and [[WP:NOR]], for starters... [[User:Bastun|&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Verdana, sans-serif&quot;&gt;Bastun&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Bastun|Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!]]&lt;/sup&gt; 20:03, 22 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> I have opened an RfC to cut the useless bickering. [[User:Kingsindian|Kingsindian]]&amp;nbsp;[[User Talk: Kingsindian|&amp;#9821;]]&amp;nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Kingsindian|&amp;#9818;]] 00:44, 23 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> <br /> EDIT: Didn't see survey. PS: I guess we should have survey about whether 9/11 or 7/7 was an Islamist attack. In fact, let's debate obvious facts until the cows come home. [[User:R00b07|R00b07]] ([[User talk:R00b07|talk]]) 23:46, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == RfC: Should the Orlando shooting be included in this list? ==<br /> <br /> {{rfc|pol|rfcid=EC3234A}}<br /> {{not a vote}}<br /> Should the [[2016 Orlando nightclub shooting]] be included in this list? 00:44, 23 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> === Survey ===<br /> * '''Strong Yes''': The act itself is an act of terrorism. This much is undisputed. Omar was a Muslim. This much is undisputed. We have official recordings and transcripts from Reliable Sources (911, police, district atty) of Omar pledging allegiance to ISIL. This is also undisputed. To say that this act of muslim terror is somehow excused because there is a rumor Omar was gay is simply against all common sense. <br /> * '''Strong Yes''': A self-proclaimed ISIS sympathizer, reported to the FBI on multiple occasions, kills dozens of people and injures dozens more...and we're debating if it had anything to do with Islamic terrorism? Have we lost our minds? I don't buy into the far-right narrative that says Wikipedia is a liberal thinktank...but this is sure playing into that. I challenge anything vote &quot;no&quot; to explain what could Omar Marteen have said or done, over what he already did, to convince you this was an Islamic terror attack? If you can't think of an answer, or have to go to great lengths to invent one, then consider you're letting your bias control you. Occam's razor makes this pretty simple... &lt;!-- Template:Unsigned --&gt;&lt;small&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—&amp;nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Ceran|Ceran]] ([[User talk:Ceran|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Ceran|contribs]]) 18:14, 30 June 2016 (UTC)&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/small&gt; &lt;!--Autosigned by SineBot--&gt;<br /> {{User:EvergreenFir/Zombie|Ceran|11 months}}&lt;font face=&quot;#&quot; color=&quot;#35b794&quot;&gt;[[User:Dschslava|'''Dsch'''slava]]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;#3558b7&quot;&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contribs/Dschslava|'' Δx '']]&lt;/sup&gt;[[User talk:Dschslava|parlez moi]]&lt;/font&gt; 04:57, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> ** Wikipedia has an obvious bias to the left. That this is even under debate is absurd, and clearly part of a liberal ideology to avoid associating Islam with terror and violence. Now that you've seen, look at other political issues on Wikipedia with new eyes. [[Special:Contributions/24.218.115.184|24.218.115.184]] ([[User talk:24.218.115.184|talk]]) 19:51, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::: Remember to [[WP:AGF]] or you will get in trouble. [[User:R00b07|R00b07]] ([[User talk:R00b07|talk]]) 02:08, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> * '''No''': At the moment, the motives remain unclear. It seems he did not have any links to foreign organizations like ISIS. See discussion [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:List_of_Islamist_terrorist_attacks#Orlando_shooting here] for various sources. [[User:Kingsindian|Kingsindian]]&amp;nbsp;[[User Talk: Kingsindian|&amp;#9821;]]&amp;nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Kingsindian|&amp;#9818;]] 00:44, 23 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> **You don't have to have any links in order to support the cause and implement an agenda. [[Special:Contributions/203.30.95.21|203.30.95.21]] ([[User talk:203.30.95.21|talk]]) 00:18, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> ***But you do have to have links to reliable sources to report it on Wikipedia. We are not a news outlet, we don't report what hasn't been reliably and widely reported. [[User:Mr rnddude|Mr rnddude]] ([[User talk:Mr rnddude|talk]]) 00:23, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> ****Right, we are an information hub and we use sources given by news outlets to provide accurate information to the public. [[User:R00b07|R00b07]] ([[User talk:R00b07|talk]]) 02:09, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> * '''Strong yes''': The attacker was reported by innumerable sources, including law enforcement agencies as well as numerous media outlets, as pledging allegiance to Islamist terror organizations and leaders and repeatedly stating that he was carrying out the attack in the name of Islam. Political considerations, such as those that led the FBI to attempt to redact mentions of Islam or ISIS from the transcripts of his calls, can and must not be taken into account when compiling data for an impartial encyclopedia. [[Special:Contributions/2601:602:9802:99B2:B5B0:510C:53AF:F763|2601:602:9802:99B2:B5B0:510C:53AF:F763]] ([[User talk:2601:602:9802:99B2:B5B0:510C:53AF:F763|talk]]) 02:19, 23 June 2016 (UTC) &lt;small&gt;— [[User:2601:602:9802:99B2:B5B0:510C:53AF:F763|2601:602:9802:99B2:B5B0:510C:53AF:F763]] ([[User talk:2601:602:9802:99B2:B5B0:510C:53AF:F763|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/2601:602:9802:99B2:B5B0:510C:53AF:F763|contribs]]) has made [[Wikipedia:Single-purpose account|few or no other edits]] outside this topic. &lt;/small&gt;<br /> :: '''Comment''': &quot;Political considerations...can and must not be taken into account...&quot; What do you mean to imply here? That sentence not only makes no sense, but you are also suggesting that an independent, impartial encyclopedia should presume that the official statements of law enforcement agencies should be completely disregarded when documenting an ongoing event involving [[WP:BLP]]s. Your &quot;political considerations&quot; are nothing more than conspiratorial nonsense. &lt;&gt; [[User:Alt lys er svunnet hen|Alt lys er svunnet hen]] ([[User talk:Alt lys er svunnet hen|talk]]) 08:34, 28 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> *'''No''' Today's news brought [http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/pulse-orlando-nightclub-shooting/omar-mateen/os-omar-mateen-lover-talks-20160622-story.html reports] that the gunman's male lover, who has been interviewed by the FBI, says the attack was motivated by revenge for mistreatment at the nightclub and fear of contracting HIV from gay Latinos. Read [[WP:NOTNEWS]] and [[WP:NODEADLINE]]. Let's wait for the dust to settle before we declare this Islamist terrorism. —&amp;nbsp;[[User:Malik Shabazz|Malik Shabazz]]&amp;nbsp;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Malik Shabazz|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt;/&lt;sub&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Malik Shabazz|Stalk]]&lt;/sub&gt; 02:36, 23 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ** The problem is that the dust did settle, and the FBI made it clear that it was Islamic Terror. [[User:R00b07|R00b07]] ([[User talk:R00b07|talk]]) 02:11, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> &lt;s&gt;*'''Too early to vote''' There is evidence for the position but there are developing stories that make it a mistake to commit to a particular conclusion now. As it is hard to undo these votes I would rather just leave the issue on hold and wait for evidence to develop. [[User:Mrdthree|Mrdthree]] ([[User talk:Mrdthree|talk]]) 03:30, 23 June 2016 (UTC)&lt;/s&gt;<br /> :: '''Comment''': The FBI has further investigated and found that there was no evidence Mateen was gay. http://www.nola.com/crime/index.ssf/2016/06/orlando_shooter_gay_omar_matee.html &lt;!-- Template:Unsigned --&gt;&lt;small&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—&amp;nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Marquis de Faux |Marquis de Faux ]] ([[User talk:Marquis de Faux |talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Marquis de Faux |contribs]]) 17:15, 30 June 2016&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/small&gt;<br /> *'''Yes''' Omar Mateen pledged allegence to ISIS https://www.fbi.gov/tampa/press-releases/2016/investigative-update-regarding-pulse-nightclub-shooting. ISIS has a strategy of encouraging lone wolf attacks in Western countries for more than two years https://www.fbi.gov/news/testimony/isil-in-america-domestic-terror-and-radicalization http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/jun/16/isis-promoting-lone-wolf-attacks-scheming-to-infil/ http://edition.cnn.com/2014/09/22/world/meast/isis-threatens-west/ Mateen voiced his motives to victims (saying it wasnt a racist attack it was to stop bombings of ISIL) http://www.democracynow.org/2016/6/15/headlines/orlando_survivor_says_shooter_wanted_us_to_stop_bombing_afghanistan and voiced his motives to officials which were to stop bombings of ISIL http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-06-15/orlando-gunman-wanted-to-stop-us-bombing-afghanistan/7511586 and posted the same motivations on facebook while the crime was in progress http://www.thehindu.com/news/international/stop-bombing-is-mateen-wrote-on-facebook/article8737808.ece. Official investigators and other press outlets discount gay revenge story http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-orlando-gay-fbi-20160623-snap-story.html, http://www.rollingstone.com/culture/news/authorities-no-evidence-orlando-shooter-omar-mateen-was-gay-20160624--[[User:Mrdthree|Mrdthree]] ([[User talk:Mrdthree|talk]]) 23:39, 27 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> There isn't a vote to be had here. http://www.cnn.com/2016/06/20/us/orlando-nightclub-shooting/ He pledged allegiance to ISIL's leader and ISIL in his 911 call. It shuold obviously included. Anyone saying no needs to have hteir head examined.[[Special:Contributions/65.29.77.61|65.29.77.61]] ([[User talk:65.29.77.61|talk]]) 05:24, 23 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::[[User:65.29.77.61]], no one is trying to suppress or exclude info about his 'allegiance calls'. But investigation is still unclear as to how much this was a conscious terrorist attack, how much homophobia, how much a disturbed individual best compared with a school-shooter. The true picture is that we don't know yet which it truly was. [[User:Pincrete|Pincrete]] ([[User talk:Pincrete|talk]]) 16:32, 23 June 2016 (UTC) <br /> :::::: Taking a gander at the other Islamist attacks, it's fairly obvious common-sense-wise why he did what he did. The tricky part is getting good sources to back up that what he did is inline with the THOUSANDS of other Islamist attacks that have happened across the globe. [[User:R00b07|R00b07]] ([[User talk:R00b07|talk]]) 02:07, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> *'''Yes''', he pledged allegiance to ISIS, on the 911 call, he mentioned Islam and did not mention gays at all. It clearly is the same as other terror attacks where &quot;pledged allegiance to ISIS.&quot; [[User:Sir Joseph|Sir Joseph]] &lt;sup&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;Green&quot;&gt;[[User_talk:Sir Joseph|(talk)]]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/sup&gt; 13:46, 23 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> *'''No'''. The fact that he &quot;did not mention gays at all&quot; is a somewhat bizarre [[non sequitur]]. If someone dressed as Napoleon or claiming allegiance to Mars attacked somewhere, we would not attribute it to the [[French Empire]] or add it to a [[List of interplanetary attacks]]. [[User:Bastun|&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Verdana, sans-serif&quot;&gt;Bastun&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Bastun|Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!]]&lt;/sup&gt; 15:12, 23 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :*And yet this same article had entries where the terrorist &quot;claimed allegiance&quot; to ISIS so is therefore included on the list. Same here. [[User:Sir Joseph|Sir Joseph]] &lt;sup&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;Green&quot;&gt;[[User_talk:Sir Joseph|(talk)]]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/sup&gt; 15:56, 23 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :*Somebody claiming to be Napoleon or from Mars is obviously wrong/lying though. So I don't think this is a valid argument. Somebody claiming allegiance to Napoleon and attacking a gay club would not act in allegiance to Napoleon because it does not align with Napoleon's goals. Somebody claiming allegiance with IS and attacking a gay club does act in allegiance with IS. It does not matter if he was radicalized abroad, domestic or on the internet. It does not matter if he acted by order of IS or not. So people arguing that this was not an islamist terrorist attack are basically saying it was a false flag operation to discredit IS? &lt;!-- Template:Unsigned IP --&gt;&lt;small class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—&amp;nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/212.202.124.186|212.202.124.186]] ([[User talk:212.202.124.186|talk]]) 10:07, 1 July 2016 (UTC)&lt;/small&gt; &lt;!--Autosigned by SineBot--&gt;<br /> :::Feel free to read this section to learn what people are saying. I don't think any of them are saying that. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#AAA;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 10:21, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> *'''Ambivalent''' - As pointed out above, other entries on this list have been made based on perpetrator claims. However, the current state of the investigator suggests other motives are possible (if not likely). I'm ambivalent because, on one hand, sources treated this as an Islamist terrorist attack. On the other hand, there's now doubt about that characterization. If it's included, we can always take it down should the investigation prove otherwise. The reverse is true too; we can always add it later. Our task is a bit like those of pollsters at fivethirtyeight predicting election outcomes: we must consider the trend and trajectory of the RS, and give weight based on recency, reputation, and depth. There's ample reason to include it based on older information, but sufficient reason to exclude it based on newer, better information. [[User:EvergreenFir|'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:#8b00ff;&quot;&gt;Eve&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#6528c2;&quot;&gt;rgr&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#3f5184;&quot;&gt;een&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#197947;&quot;&gt;Fir&lt;/span&gt;''']] [[User talk:EvergreenFir|(talk)]] &lt;small&gt;Please &amp;#123;&amp;#123;[[Template:re|re]]&amp;#125;&amp;#125;&lt;/small&gt; 16:22, 23 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> *'''Too early to say''' Therefore not yet. Whilst I respect EvergreenFir's we can add it or take it out assessment, I prefer the 'add it when clear' option. Alternatively make the text reflect that this is one of the theories being speculated about at present. We just don't know what the motive was yet. [[User:Pincrete|Pincrete]] ([[User talk:Pincrete|talk]]) 16:50, 23 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> * '''No need to [[Rush to Judgment]] here'''. This seems ([[opinion]]) to be more of a homophobic thing than a religious one. To me. At this time. [[User:Carptrash|Carptrash]] ([[User talk:Carptrash|talk]]) 18:16, 23 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> * '''No''': The more we learn about Omar Mateen, the more he seems to be a routine U.S. loner with a range of grudges against the world around him who jumped on the radical Islamic bandwagon after reading a few websites. At best it is too early to say what the motive was.--'''''[[User:ianmacm|&lt;span style=&quot;background:#88b;color:#cff;font-variant:small-caps&quot;&gt;♦Ian&lt;span style=&quot;background:#99c&quot;&gt;Ma&lt;span style=&quot;background:#aad&quot;&gt;c&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;M♦&lt;/span&gt;]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:ianmacm|(talk to me)]]&lt;/sup&gt;''''' 18:22, 23 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> *'''Strong No''' (and I think that's the first time in 3 years I've used the word &quot;strong&quot; in a !vote). This list, being almost entirely without context, should be limited to attacks specifically planned, manned, and/or financed by Islamic terrorist organizations (ISIL does not do that). No such link has been uncovered for Orlando, and not for lack of trying to find one. Mateen was a lone wolf with apparently a mix of motivations for his act, only one of which was propaganda he read on the Internet. It is unclear to what extent he subscribed to, or even understood, jihadist ideology. A witness said he said, &quot;I'm just tired of your people killing my people in Iraq,&quot; and that sort of thing is an extremely thin connection to Islamic terrorism. Our readers do not benefit from a broad-brush interpretation of the words &quot;Islamic terrorism&quot;. The predominance of reliable sources &lt;u&gt;do not&lt;/u&gt; state unequivocally that this was Islamic terrorism, and we do not cherry-pick our sources. The most applicable policies are [[WP:NOR]] and [[WP:NPOV]]. If that's not enough, an effective counter to most of the RS arguments is simple: [[WP:ONUS]]. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#AAA;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 20:25, 23 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::You've added the arbitrary requirement that lone wolf Islamist terrorist attacks cannot be included on this list. I don't see that restriction mentioned anywhere in the article and can imagine no justification for it. Do you have one? Same for the requirement that an attack cannot be included on the list unless it is determined there is only one motivation. If these are requirements, they should be spelled out in the main article: &quot;List of Islamist terrorist attacks planned or carried out by more than one person, and in which the attacker had only one motivation.&quot; Once we do that, then we can create another article that includes ALL Islamist terrorist attacks.[[User:Dansan99|Dansan99]] ([[User talk:Dansan99|talk]]) 01:32, 25 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::{{tq|You've added the arbitrary requirement that lone wolf Islamist terrorist attacks cannot be included on this list.}} Actually that is not an accurate characterization of my argument at all, on multiple points. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#AAA;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 03:44, 25 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::I apologize if I misinterpreted your saying that the list &quot;should be limited to attacks specifically planned, manned, and/or financed by Islamic terrorist organizations&quot; as precluding lone wolf terrorists. Instead of spending additional time analyzing your statement, I'll just ask you: Do you believe that lone wolf Islamist terrorists should be automatically excluded from the list?[[User:Dansan99|Dansan99]] ([[User talk:Dansan99|talk]]) 06:06, 25 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::::I reject the nuance-free premise that Mateen was a &quot;lone wolf Islamic terrorist&quot;. I did not call him that, you distorted my argument by adding that. This is an example of [[straw man]] argument, something to be avoided. I suppose it would be worth debating separately whether a lone wolf who clearly understood and subscribed to jihadist ideology, and who was clearly motivated by that alone, should be included in this list, but that is not the question being decided in this particular RfC. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#AAA;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 06:13, 25 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::::Whether or not he was a lone wolf Islamic terrorist is a separate question. I'm trying to establish a baseline of agreement on the requirements for inclusion of attacks in the list. Once there is agreement on that, it makes it easier to decide if this specific attack meets those requirements. It appears to me that the reason this discussion is so contentious is that we have not reached broad agreement on the requirements for inclusion in the list. One person way above used the first paragraph of the main article as a literal checklist of requirements. But, this immediately drew objections based on presumed requirements not in that list. Some examples that came up repeatedly were: 1. Should undirected, lone wolf attacks be included? 2. Should attacks with multiple motives be included? 3. Should attacks where the attacker has a confused understanding of his professed ideology be included? I think those decisions should be influenced by what reliable sources are saying. Once we decide the criteria, whether a particular attack fits is a separate discussion. But, whatever we decide this list is about should probably be included in the main article, so as not to create further confusion later on. In writing this, I've kind of concluded that this RfC is premature and will bow out of further discussion. When I have the time and energy, and if someone doesn't beat me to it, I'll start a separate topic or topics for discussing criteria for inclusion of attacks in the list.[[User:Dansan99|Dansan99]] ([[User talk:Dansan99|talk]]) 08:08, 25 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::::::I completely agree that this RfC is cart-before-horse if the developers of this article have failed to nail down the criteria for inclusion (which should have been the &lt;u&gt;first&lt;/u&gt; discussion here). But it doesn't work to change an RfC's question and scope midstream. If it were up to me, which it is not, we would abort this RfC as a waste of time and start over with the criteria question (which would also need an RfC). Barring that, we have no choice but to answer the question for Orlando alone, per the RfC's question, and that result could obviously be superseded by a later criteria result. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#AAA;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 08:34, 25 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::::::ISIL and AL Qaeda have had an explicit strategy of trying to recruit ''lone wolf'' terrorists for more than 2 years. Are you aware of this?http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/isis-official-calls-for-lone-wolf-attacks-in-us-and-europe-during-ramadan-a7042296.html http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/jun/16/isis-promoting-lone-wolf-attacks-scheming-to-infil/ http://edition.cnn.com/2014/09/22/world/meast/isis-threatens-west/ [[User:Mrdthree|Mrdthree]] ([[User talk:Mrdthree|talk]]) 23:29, 27 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::::::::I do draw a distinction between direct recruitment and publishing propaganda on the Internet for anyone to read. The last sentence of the article's lead reads: &quot;The Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) said it found no links between ISIL and Mateen.&quot; At the core of this question is whether it better serves our readers to be less selective or more selective in this list, a list that is necessarily without nuance, explanation, or context. My feeling is more selective, and I perceive a desire, conscious or otherwise, to blame as much violence as possible on Islamic terrorism, making Wikipedia a political tool. You are entitled to disagree, and there is probably no &quot;correct&quot; answer to this question. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#AAA;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 00:54, 28 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> *'''No''' per [[WP:V]]. Most reliable sources have not made any conclusive statements because they can't. It is unknown whether Mateen committed the shooting to &quot;further a perceived Islamic religious or political cause&quot;. Many sources speculate about other possible motives for the shooting, like homophobia, or anger about being exposed to HIV. Some sources say that Mateen ''may'' have been inspired by ISIL, but none that I have seen have unequivocally called the shooting an Islamist terrorist attack, so neither can we without committing [[WP:OR|original research]].- [[user: MrX|Mr]][[user talk:MrX|X]] 01:46, 24 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> *'''Strong Yes''', Frankly, I'm dumbfounded that there is any controversy about this at all. We have reliable sources for all the following: Officials have repeatedly referred to it as a terrorist attack. The perpetrator himself, during the attack, pledged allegiance to an Islamist terrorist organization. That organization sent out messages specifically encouraging lone wolf terrorist attacks by their followers on soft targets such as this. Perpetrator had been investigated in past by FBI for Islamist statements. Perpetrator during the attack said it was to influence government policy on bombing in Middle East. Despite reports by others, the FBI has said their investigations have found no credible evidence of a gay double life (and it wouldn't necessarily matter anyway). The evidence in favor of Islamic Terrorism is simply overwhelming. I see nothing but speculation to the contrary. Some people seem to be asking for evidence of ISIS being aware of and specifically directing the attack. That is not a requirement for this to be an Islamist terrorist attack. As stated above, the evidence is that this was a lone wolf attack of the type explicitly encouraged by ISIS.&quot;[[User:Dansan99|Dansan99]] ([[User talk:Dansan99|talk]]) 21:46, 24 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> *:You seem much more certain than the people officially investigating the shooting:<br /> :::{{talkquote|&quot;Comey said Mateen's statements added &quot;confusion&quot; about his inspiration for the attack, because Mateen had expressed loyalty to Islamist groups and figures that are opposed to each other. &quot;|source=''[http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-orlando-nightclub-shooting-live-fbi-director-mateen-claimed-loyalty-to-1465837231-htmlstory.html Los Angeles Times]''}}<br /> :::{{talkquote|&quot;&quot;I cannot tell you definitively that we will ever narrow it down to one motivation,&quot; U.S. Attorney General Loretta Lynch said.&quot;|source=''[http://www.cnn.com/2016/06/22/us/omar-mateen-timeline/ CNN]''}}<br /> :::{{talkquote|&quot;FBI Director James Comey said Monday that there was no evidence to indicate that Orlando mass shooter Omar Mateen was directed by an outside terror organization nor was he part of an international terror network.&quot;|source=''[http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2016/06/13/james-comey-fbi-orlando-shooting/85834956/ USA Today]''}}<br /> ::- [[user: MrX|Mr]][[user talk:MrX|X]] 22:20, 24 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::It's not at all unusual for a partisan to have a confused understanding of the group he is supporting. The question is what he believed (as indicated by what he said), not what makes sense to us. Besides, all the groups he declared allegiance to or affinity with are Islamist groups, so it doesn't change the answer to the question at hand. Regarding number of motivations, having one motivation is also not a requirement. We know he mentioned allegiance to an Islamist organization (he mentioned nothing else in the released transcript), and that's enough to make this list, even if secondary motivations are later determined. I already addressed the question of him being specifically directed by ISIS to carry out this particular attack. It's not a requirement. A lone wolf Islamist terrorist attack is still an Islamist terrorist attack.[[User:Dansan99|Dansan99]] ([[User talk:Dansan99|talk]]) 00:37, 25 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::Is a vote space a place to argue? If so Quote 1 regards a statement Mateen made in 2013. Quote 2 is irrelevant as all Official agree a primary motivation was islamic extremism. Quote 3 makes a distinction between domestic and international terrorism, not islamic and other terrorism[[User:Mrdthree|Mrdthree]] ([[User talk:Mrdthree|talk]]) 11:09, 25 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::It's not a vote space; it's a discussion to try to determine consensus. Quote 1 is directly related to his &quot;inspiration for the attack&quot;. Your comment about Quote 2 [[begs the question]]. Quote 3 doesn't make any distinction. It encompasses any outside terror organizations, which obviously includes Islamist terror organizations. It amplifies this by also stating that there is no evidence that he was part of &quot;an international terror network&quot;. The only thing it leaves unanswered is whether Mateen's apparently independent actions were motivated by Islamist extremism for furtherance of a political or religious agenda. His dubious pledge of allegiance is insufficient for making such a conclusion in Wikipedia's voice.- [[user: MrX|Mr]][[user talk:MrX|X]] 12:28, 25 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::::Its original research to claim that Quote 1 is in anyway related to the current attack. Please return to the article for context. Perhaps there are arguable elements in Q2 and Q3 but there is nothing dubious about his pledge of allegence to ISIS. It is an agreed fact. What you mean is that you doubt his capacity or honesty. However there is no record of insanity so his capacity is not at question. That means you doubt his honesty, correct? [[User:Mrdthree|Mrdthree]] ([[User talk:Mrdthree|talk]]) 11:16, 27 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::::{{tq|&quot;Its original research to claim that Quote 1 is in anyway related to the current attack&quot;}}. I guess you're saying the FBI Director used original research when he discussed Mateen's &quot;inspiration for the attack&quot;. Our [[WP:OR]] policy does not extend to reliable sources. I don't have an opinion about Mateen's &quot;honesty&quot; or state of mind, but the FBI director and several sources obviously do.- [[user: MrX|Mr]][[user talk:MrX|X]] 13:20, 27 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::::::OK I misunderstood the quote; I thought it was the 2013 reference. It is a reference to their current motivations. Here is Comeys statement about 'confusion': {{tq|&quot;During the calls he said he was doing this for the leader of ISIL, who he named and pledged loyalty to, but he also appeared to claim solidarity with the perpetrators of the Boston Marathon bombing, and solidarity with a Florida man who died as a suicide bomber in Syria for al Nusra Front, a group in conflict with Islamic State. The bombers at the Boston Marathon and the suicide bomber from Florida were not inspired by ISIL, which adds a little bit to the confusion about his motives.}} https://www.fbi.gov/news/speeches/update-on-orlando-terrorism-investigation [[User:Mrdthree|Mrdthree]] ([[User talk:Mrdthree|talk]]) 23:00, 27 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::::::The solidarity he expressed was in calling them homeboys, which is hardly a pledge of allegence (as he did to ISIS){{tq|During one of the 911 calls between the operator and Omar Mir Seddique Mateen, Mateen made a reference to the Tsarnaev brothers by calling them his “homeboys.” At this point in time, all evidence collected to date shows no connection between Mateen and the Tsarnaev brothers.&quot;}}https://www.fbi.gov/boston/press-releases/2016/statement-from-special-agent-in-charge-harold-h.-shaw-regarding-omar-mir-seddique-mateens-reference-to-the-tsarnaev-brothers. [[User:Mrdthree|Mrdthree]] ([[User talk:Mrdthree|talk]]) 23:12, 27 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::Exactly, all those quotes above can be perfectly true and coexist with Mateen's extremist motivation. In fact, that has been the affirmative motive of the attack according to investigators, from the article I posted below: &quot;He claimed the shooting was carried out in allegiance to the militant group Islamic State, as a message to halt U.S. bombing in Iraq and Syria.&quot; This isn't a &quot;process of elimination&quot; issue. &lt;small class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—&amp;nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/73.233.156.49|73.233.156.49]] ([[User talk:73.233.156.49|talk]]) 16:56, 25 June 2016 (UTC)&lt;/small&gt;&lt;!-- Template:Unsigned IP --&gt; &lt;!--Autosigned by SineBot--&gt;<br /> <br /> *'''Strong No'''. Need definite proof first. Unless declaring war and invading countries without evidence is back in vogue. &lt;small&gt;— [[User:2602:306:ce95:57b0:549d:5e23:e8eb:3703|2602:306:ce95:57b0:549d:5e23:e8eb:3703]] ([[User talk:2602:306:ce95:57b0:549d:5e23:e8eb:3703|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/2602:306:ce95:57b0:549d:5e23:e8eb:3703|contribs]]) has made [[Wikipedia:Single-purpose account|few or no other edits]] outside this topic. The preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment was added at 00:33, 25 June 2016‎ (UTC) (UTC).&lt;/small&gt;<br /> ::How much stronger evidence could there be than from the perpetrator's own lips?[[User:Dansan99|Dansan99]] ([[User talk:Dansan99|talk]]) 00:42, 25 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> *'''Strong Yes'''. I don't understand the argument that he may have had multiple motivations for the attack precluding the attack from being listed here; as long as one of the motivations was Islamist, then it ought to be included on this list and it certainly appears to be the main, if not only, motivation. I also don't see pledging allegiance to conflicting groups as an issue either since they are all, bottom line, Islamist groups or individuals. --[[User:Local hero|&lt;font color=&quot;blue&quot;&gt;Local hero&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Local hero|&lt;font color=&quot;dark yellow&quot;&gt;talk&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; 17:34, 25 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> *'''No'''. There is evidence that Mateen had pledged allegiance to both ISIS and Hezbollah, two groups which happen to be fighting against each other in the [[Syrian Civil War]]. His political and religious ideologies are confused, and his motivations for the shooting remain unclear as established by reliable sources. OT, how long is this article going to get before it gets broken up? &lt;&gt; [[User:Alt lys er svunnet hen|Alt lys er svunnet hen]] ([[User talk:Alt lys er svunnet hen|talk]]) 04:25, 27 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> *'''No'''. Needs to be stated in a source, rather than rumoured, for inclusion. [[Special:Contributions/PeterTheFourth|PeterTheFourth]] ([[User Talk:PeterTheFourth|talk]]) 12:40, 27 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::Here are sourced facts Omar Mateen pledged allegence to ISIS on the telephone and internet https://www.fbi.gov/tampa/press-releases/2016/investigative-update-regarding-pulse-nightclub-shooting. Mateen told his victims he was doing it to stop US bombing in Afghanistan/ISIL http://www.democracynow.org/2016/6/15/headlines/orlando_survivor_says_shooter_wanted_us_to_stop_bombing_afghanistan and he told police on the telephone he was doing it to stop US bombing in Afghanistan/ISIL http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-06-15/orlando-gunman-wanted-to-stop-us-bombing-afghanistan/7511586 and he posted the same motivations on facebook while the crime was in progress http://www.thehindu.com/news/international/stop-bombing-is-mateen-wrote-on-facebook/article8737808.ece. Official investigators and other press outlets discount gay revenge story http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-orlando-gay-fbi-20160623-snap-story.html, http://www.rollingstone.com/culture/news/authorities-no-evidence-orlando-shooter-omar-mateen-was-gay-20160624 [[User:Mrdthree|Mrdthree]] ([[User talk:Mrdthree|talk]]) 21:48, 28 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> *'''Of Course, YES''' - It would take some very strange reasoning not to include it. One of the reasons was radical Islamic belief. This is a slam dunk. [[User:Fyunck(click)|Fyunck(click)]] ([[User talk:Fyunck(click)|talk]]) 21:59, 28 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> *'''Definite Yes''' Same as San Bernardino, radicalized natural born turned Islamic homophobic terrorist. The FBI says claims he was gay are considered unsubstantiated. I don't care what nonsense Obama says about it and gun control, it's terrorism pure and simple especially considering his administration's been trying to scrub this fact from history as to partially censer recording of the calls the terrorist made. This shouldn't be up for debate when he's a Muslim extremist who has pledged allegiance to terrorist groups and states the political motive for the terrorist act.[[User:ShadowDragon343|ShadowDragon343]] ([[User talk:ShadowDragon343|talk]]) 13:04, 29 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> * '''Strong yes'''. It's absurd to armchair-quarterback Mateen's exact motivations, and claim that because there were more than one, he was not at least partially motivated by his religious views. In such cases, we should err on the side of what &lt;i&gt;the perpetrator's own stated motivation&lt;/i&gt; was. And with making decisions that involve suicide, religious views are typically a stronger motivating factor than others (how much more likely is someone to die for the promise of an afterlife than they are because they're conflicted about their sexuality?!) I've no doubt that at least some of the 9/11 attackers had multiple reasons for their involvement, but there's sufficient evidence that they were at least significantly motivated by their religious views. So too with Mateen. This comment is particularly absurd: &quot;&lt;i&gt;There is evidence that Mateen had pledged allegiance to both ISIS and Hezbollah, two groups which happen to be fighting against each other in the Syrian Civil War&lt;/i&gt;&quot;. And what is the commonality among ISIL and Hezbollah? &lt;u&gt;They're both Islamist groups&lt;/u&gt;. It's as ridiculous as claiming that because Osama bin Laden was Sunni Muslim who denounced Shiites, that he wasn't really an Islamist, because Shiites and Sunnis -- the two main sects of Islam -- are frequently in conflict. [[User:Bricology|Bricology]] ([[User talk:Bricology|talk]]) 19:24, 29 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :And I would add that it's irrelevant whether or not Mateen was directed by, authorized by, trained by or in any other way directly involved with, any outside group. One doesn't need any external influences to be to kill because of their religious views. It's straightforward enough to find motivation from the ideology itself. [[User:Bricology|Bricology]] ([[User talk:Bricology|talk]]) 19:40, 29 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> * '''NO. At least until confirmed by RS''' Most of !votes are are making arguments based on OR. It is basic policy that Wikipedia doesn't include material unless backed by multiple RS. The pertinent question is, do [[WP:RS|reliable sources]] commonly refer to this incident as a terrorist attack? If they do, then include it, if they don't then do not. Browsing news paper reports, it appears that they refer to it as the &quot;Orlando shooting&quot; or &quot;Orlando attack&quot;, but not as &quot;Orlando terrorism&quot; or &quot;Orlando terrorist attack&quot;. [[User:Lawrencekhoo|LK]] ([[User talk:Lawrencekhoo|talk]]) 02:49, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> *:You've noticed that this list is only for &lt;u&gt;Islamic&lt;/u&gt; terrorist attacks? There are other types of terrorism. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you just misspoke. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#AAA;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 04:26, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> *:: This makes my point even stronger. No RS has named the incident an &lt;u&gt;Islamic&lt;/u&gt; terrorist attack. [[User:Lawrencekhoo|LK]] ([[User talk:Lawrencekhoo|talk]]) 09:26, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> * '''Strong Yes''' The man himself stated what his motivations were. ISIS claimed credit. All other criteria are met. [[User:Evan1975|Evan1975]] ([[User talk:Evan1975|talk]]) 14:21, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> * '''Strong Yes''' I understand that points that this man may have been mentally ill and that this attack was not ''directed'' by ISIS, but those points are not relevant. ISIS intentionally targets those who are mentally ill, ISIS intentionally does not direct attacks in the United States where their communications can be intercepted, and ISIS intentionally congratulates and endorses lone gunman (or pairs/small groups) who attack in the United States. They intentionally release guides and propaganda encouraging these attacks to take place. Almost all Islamist terrorist attacks in the United States follow this same pattern. As far as a 'lack' of RS, the United States government has a vested interest in portraying ISIS as an organization with no physical presense in the United States and no support among American citizens and residents. The USA media protects the interests of the USA government. I don't think this is 'conspiratorial nonsense'. I would prefer if WP remained independent and did not become another arm of the USA propaganda machine. [[User:Brianbleakley|Brianbleakley]] ([[User talk:Brianbleakley|talk]]) 14:41, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> * '''Strong Yes''': The list says &quot;list of Islamist terrorist attacks,&quot; not &quot;list of terrorist attacks perpetrated by Islamic terrorist organizations.&quot; Omar Mateen was Islamic, he committed a terror attack, therefore the Orlando shooting was a terror attack by an Islamist. [[User:Vektor00|Vektor00]] ([[User talk:Vektor00|talk]]) 15:08, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> * '''Strong Yes''': Of course yes. It's not up to Wikipedia editors to figure out how they can twist the facts around to somehow conclude that there's not clear evidence it was a terror attack. If there's significant doubt (which I don't think there is) you can at least say that it's *widely claimed* to be a terror attack by [huge list of news organizations around the world whom have reported it as such.] I don't think that's even necessary, however. He was a Muslim and committed an Islamic-motivated act of terror by even the most stringent definition of the word. [[User:100DashSix|100DashSix]] ([[User talk:100DashSix|talk]]) 15:18, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::{{User:EvergreenFir/Zombie|100DashSix|2 years}} [[User:EvergreenFir|'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:#8b00ff;&quot;&gt;Eve&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#6528c2;&quot;&gt;rgr&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#3f5184;&quot;&gt;een&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#197947;&quot;&gt;Fir&lt;/span&gt;''']] [[User talk:EvergreenFir|(talk)]] &lt;small&gt;Please &amp;#123;&amp;#123;[[Template:re|re]]&amp;#125;&amp;#125;&lt;/small&gt; 00:17, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> * '''Strong yes''': Claims from the horses-mouth said are that he did it in accordance to his allegiance with ISIS and ISIS took credit. I don't care how prestigious and important a person's title is. Any third party investigators wanting to make sense of the attackers motivations, while ignoring statements made by the attacker, might as well just go home and twiddle their thumbs because they're doing nothing but wasting time.[[User:The Armchair General|The Armchair General]] ([[User talk:The Armchair General|talk]]) 15:27, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> * '''Strong yes''': He pledged allegiance to ISIS and Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, stated he was acting according to the will of Allah, and ISIS itself has claimed credit for the attack. Citations are too numerous to count. If this isn't an Islamic terror attack, nothing is. wikipedia's systemic bias is on full display in this ridiculous discussion. [[User:Jennyriarchi|Jennyriarchi]] ([[User talk:Jennyriarchi|talk]]) 15:41, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> * '''Comment''': Since this is picking up [http://www.breitbart.com/tech/2016/06/30/wikipedia-removes-orlando-shooting-islamist-terror-attack-list/ media coverage on Breitbart.com] and [[User:MrX]] is getting criticized, let's look at what happened. During the hostage situation, Omar Mateen called 911 and made a [[Bay'ah]] (pledge of allegiance) to ISIL. This isn't in dispute, and it has appeared in numerous reliable sources. What is in dispute is whether anyone in ISIL had ever heard of Mateen prior to the attack, which now seems unlikely. Mateen's knowledge of radical Islamic ideology seems to have been acquired from websites and was thin and confused at best. Investigators have moved away from the theory that this was a planned attack by a terrorist organization, such as the Bataclan theater attack in Paris in November 2015.--'''''[[User:ianmacm|&lt;span style=&quot;background:#88b;color:#cff;font-variant:small-caps&quot;&gt;♦Ian&lt;span style=&quot;background:#99c&quot;&gt;Ma&lt;span style=&quot;background:#aad&quot;&gt;c&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;M♦&lt;/span&gt;]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:ianmacm|(talk to me)]]&lt;/sup&gt;''''' 15:52, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :*And that lends to a YES. Nobody is saying that the attack was an ISIS attack, just that this attack was an Islamist terror attack. [[User:Sir Joseph|Sir Joseph]] &lt;sup&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;Green&quot;&gt;[[User_talk:Sir Joseph|(talk)]]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/sup&gt; 16:02, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :*I don't think the your second point is actually in dispute. No one is suggesting that ISIS had prior knowledge of this attack, or that it was planned in any way by ISIS. [[User:Brianbleakley|Brianbleakley]] ([[User talk:Brianbleakley|talk]]) 16:06, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :*What difference would it make if ISIL didn't know about him? How does that make it *not* a terrorist attack committed by an Islamist? [[User:Vektor00|Vektor00]] ([[User talk:Vektor00|talk]]) 16:18, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> * '''Yes.''' Regardless of Mateen's formal affiliation with any Islamist groups, during hostage negotiations he described himself as a &quot;soldier of Islam.&quot; If Wikipedia wants to define &quot;Islamist&quot; to not mean all &quot;Islamist extremists&quot;, as it currently is, then fine, but Mateen was an extremist acting in the name of Islam (regardless of what his &quot;true&quot; motivations were). [[User:JoshuaKGarner|Joshua Garner]] ([[User talk:JoshuaKGarner|talk]]) 16:39, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> * ''''Yes.'''' One does not need a &quot;Soldier Of Allah&quot; card in order to be a jihadist. The probable fact that he was self-deployed rather than formally allied with ISIL does not lessen the Islamist aspect of his act of terrorism. [[User:The Sanity Inspector|The Sanity Inspector]] ([[User talk:The Sanity Inspector|talk]]) 16:48, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> * '''Yes''': Strong support in sources. Attempts to introduce the spurious standard of affiliation with and/or direction from a recognized terrorist organization is OR, and disingenuous. [[User:D.Creish|D.Creish]] ([[User talk:D.Creish|talk]]) 17:04, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> * ''''Yes.'''' Agreeing with all above &quot;yes&quot; reasons while also mentioning that the FBI has found no evidence Mateen was gay. http://www.nola.com/crime/index.ssf/2016/06/orlando_shooter_gay_omar_matee.html &lt;!-- Template:Unsigned --&gt;&lt;small&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—&amp;nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Marquis de Faux |Marquis de Faux ]] ([[User talk:Marquis de Faux |talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Marquis de Faux |contribs]]) 17:15, 30 June 2016&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/small&gt;<br /> *'''Strong Yes.''': He declared his support for ISIS during the attack. Quote from Mateen: &quot;“America and Russia stop bombing the Islamic state..I pledge my alliance to [Islamic State leader] abu bakr al Baghdadi ..may Allah accept me,” -- No evidence found that he was even gay. https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/investigation-into-orlando-shooting-continues-no-impending-charges-expected/2016/06/15/c3eccf5e-3333-11e6-8758-d58e76e11b12_story.html<br /> *'''Yes''' That the shooter may have had other motivations does not outweigh explicit declarations of allegiance to Islamist causes committed in an act of terror. The debate about whether the incident was a hate crime or terrorism strikes me as rather silly—it's quite clearly both. --[[User:BDD|BDD]] ([[User talk:BDD|talk]]) 17:34, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> * ''''Yes.'''' Given all information available from media and police sources, refusal to include this attack in the list is highly suspect, and reduces confidence in the impartiality of the site. Thou doth protest too much. [[User:Tim Riches|Tim Riches, Mississauga, Ontario]] ([[User talk:Tim Riches|talk]]) 17:39, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::{{User:EvergreenFir/Zombie|Tim Riches|7 months}} [[User:EvergreenFir|'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:#8b00ff;&quot;&gt;Eve&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#6528c2;&quot;&gt;rgr&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#3f5184;&quot;&gt;een&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#197947;&quot;&gt;Fir&lt;/span&gt;''']] [[User talk:EvergreenFir|(talk)]] &lt;small&gt;Please &amp;#123;&amp;#123;[[Template:re|re]]&amp;#125;&amp;#125;&lt;/small&gt; 00:23, 1 July 2016 (UTC) <br /> * ''''Emphatic Yes'''' This was clearly an attack motivated by and perpetrated by a fundamentalist Islamic agenda. If its in line with true Islamic beliefs or not, if it was coordinated with ISIS/ISIL/Daesh are irrelevant, Mateen believed he was acting within those confines. [[User:AdamJacobMuller|AdamJacobMuller]] ([[User talk:AdamJacobMuller|talk]]) 18:22, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::{{User:EvergreenFir/Zombie|AdamJacobMuller|4 years 10 months}} [[User:EvergreenFir|'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:#8b00ff;&quot;&gt;Eve&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#6528c2;&quot;&gt;rgr&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#3f5184;&quot;&gt;een&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#197947;&quot;&gt;Fir&lt;/span&gt;''']] [[User talk:EvergreenFir|(talk)]] &lt;small&gt;Please &amp;#123;&amp;#123;[[Template:re|re]]&amp;#125;&amp;#125;&lt;/small&gt; 00:23, 1 July 2016 (UTC) <br /> :::: Not sure if this is just an automated bot, or whatever, but I'm obviously not a sock-puppet. I have a long history on Wikipedia (much longer than my absence which is primarily due to simply not having time to edit wikipedia anymore) and I obviously continue to use it extensively just not editing anymore. Moreover I'm using my real name for my account. I simply saw this issue and felt it was important enough to comment on as I would like Wikipedia to continue to be an agenda-free source of information. [[User:AdamJacobMuller|AdamJacobMuller]] ([[User talk:AdamJacobMuller|talk]]) 03:44, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> * '''Strong yes''' Until more evidence is released it is impossible to say whether this was an ISIL attack directed by the organization, however it is beyond doubt that, given the released statements made by the shooter during the attack, this was motivated by Islamism. The [[Charleston church shooting]] is currently in the category ''White supremacy in the United States'' despite the perpetrator having had no formal links to white supremacist groups. The motive was determined via consulting his manifesto and circumstantial evidence about which websites he had visited. The article itself features statements that cast doubt over the white supremacist element of the attack -- ''&quot;I don't think the church was his primary target because he told us he was going for the school. But I think he couldn't get into the school because of the security ... so I think he just settled for the church.&quot;'' Mateen's manifesto was transmitted via phone calls and the transcript features numerous mentions of Islamism and ideas frequently expressed by groups that are clearly Islamist. He then pledges allegiance to ISIL, a group that is widely recognized as committing violence in the name of its heretical brand of Islam. If we're going to cast aspersions over one manifesto, then it would only seem unbiased to call the motive on the other attack suspect, too. As far as I am aware, the assailant knows the motive for his own attack and in this case the authorities themselves have released evidence that Mateen's motive was Islamist in nature. --[[User:Toomanyaccountsargh|Toomanyaccountsargh]] ([[User talk:Toomanyaccountsargh|talk]]) 18:54, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> * ''''Yes'''' Back in 2013 he made inflammatory comments about radical islam to his colleagues. http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/orlando-nightclub-massacre/terror-hate-what-motivated-orlando-nightclub-shooter-n590496 [[User:Fangfufu|Fangfufu]] ([[User talk:Fangfufu|talk]]) 18:56, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> * ''''Strong Yes'''' A man claims to be an Islamic soldier. Kills people while claiming his support for Islamic terrorist groups. Somehow this isn't islamic terrorism. What the absolute hell is wrong with the world when you look at a duck and call it a chicken? [[User:Sethyre|Sethyre]] ([[User talk:Sethyre|talk]]) 19:03, 30 June 2016 (UTC) <br /> * '''Yes''' Even IF the shooter also had homophobic motives, does NOT suddenly make his public allegiance to ISIS void. The simple fact is that he claimed a clear as can be a connection to an Islamic terrorist group, and that that group also acknowledged him as 'one of theirs'. It is bizarre that some Wikipedians are trying to fall back on 'no reliable sources', when everyone knows full well that it is purely a matter of time before 'reliable sources' will acknowledge that this fits the criteria for a Islamist terrorist attack. The fact that this attack could also fit the criteria for a different kind of (lone wolf) terrorism does not matter one bit. It does not suddenly invalidate the ISIS connections. It simply makes the situation more complex. But it HAS to be listed as an Islamist terrorist attack as well. [[User:Omegastar|Omegastar]] ([[User talk:Omegastar|talk]]) 19:35, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> * '''Strong Yes''' There is insufficient evidence to state that it was an ISIS attack, but there is sufficient evidence to state it was an Islamist terrorist attack. The shooter specifically stated on a 911 call during the shootings that he pledged allegiance to Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi of the Islamic State, and made multiple other references to Islam. [[User:Patpend|Patpend]] ([[User talk:Patpend|talk]]) 19:42, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::{{User:EvergreenFir/Zombie|Patpend|6 months}} [[User:EvergreenFir|'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:#8b00ff;&quot;&gt;Eve&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#6528c2;&quot;&gt;rgr&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#3f5184;&quot;&gt;een&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#197947;&quot;&gt;Fir&lt;/span&gt;''']] [[User talk:EvergreenFir|(talk)]] &lt;small&gt;Please &amp;#123;&amp;#123;[[Template:re|re]]&amp;#125;&amp;#125;&lt;/small&gt; 00:23, 1 July 2016 (UTC) <br /> * '''Strong yes''': The attacker swore his allegiance to the [[Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant|Islamic State]]. There is little doubt, based on [[RS]]-provided evidence, that he had some sort of religious-linked political motivations. However, these doubts are not relevant to the criteria outlined for this article. [[User:NuclearWizard|Nuke]] ([[User talk:NuclearWizard|talk]]) 19:50, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> * '''Yes''' for reasons stated by others. Mateen declared Islamic motives and whether he was motivated by homophobia and/or self-hatred is ultimately irrelevant. --[[User:DrCruse|DrCruse]] ([[User talk:DrCruse|talk]]) 19:54, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> *''''Strong Yes'''' There has been no evidence of homosexual tendencies by Omar Mateen. The FBI has said that it has found nothing to show that Mateen was on gay dating apps with any of the 20 email addresses they had for him and consider the claim of a man having participated in homosexual activities with Mateen to not be credible. That combined with his pledge of allegiance to ISIS should be enough. If the shooter had called the police and and said he was Napoleon, obviously no one would blame the French, but if the shooter had pledged his allegiance to Hitler's ideals or said he was committing these acts in the name of God there would be no dispute of whether or not the attack was a white supremacist or a Christian extremist attack, respectively. We wouldn't say that we have to prove he was either a member of the SS or a Catholic priest in order to call it what it is. Why is Islamic extremism treated differently? &lt;ref&gt;http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/26/us/was-the-orlando-gunman-gay-the-answer-continues-to-elude-the-fbi.html?_r=0&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-orlando-gay-fbi-20160623-snap-story.html&lt;/ref&gt;<br /> * '''Strong Yes''': Wikipedia is not a place to argue what should be included in history, it is to document it. The attacker was Islamic and this was a terrorist attack. It passes the logic of being an Islamist terrorist attack at face value. I count at least 20 other attacks done by similar &quot;lone&quot; attackers on this list that do not have definite ties to a RS approved Islamist Terrorist organization. If this attack is not included, editors MUST remove those other attacks. Which is obviously obsurd. The fact that there is this much discussion is a reminder to the Wikipedia community that it is under attack by bad actors trying to rewrite history. We can not stand for this as unbiased editors. [[User:Iksnyrk|Iksnyrk]] ([[User talk:Iksnyrk|talk]]) 20:03, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> *'''Obvious Yes''' The sourcing is quite clear. [[User:Arkon|Arkon]] ([[User talk:Arkon|talk]]) 20:06, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> * '''Strong Yes''': I am disappointed by some of the arguments here from what sound like very smart people. The list is titled &quot;List of Islamist terrorist attacks,&quot; not &quot;List of ISIL terrorist attacks.&quot; Similarly, when you look at Christian terrorism like the Wisconsin Sikh Temple massacre, I would label it as such even though the Catholic Church or Southern Baptist Convention or the United Methodist Church neither ordered nor condoned the attacks. No religion can boast a perfect record, and as such, each needs to be called out on the issues when an attack is inspired by its ideology. True, homophobia was clearly a factor in Mateen's motive; each Abrahamic faith condemns homosexuality to some degree of another (Leviticus 20:13, Abu Dawud 4462). Furthermore, as a Christian, I see the church constantly struggle with these matters, as I have wrestled them in my own mind as well. Mateen is definitively a virulent homophobe according to his father's words; however, he was also driven by an ideology that necessitates the killing of homosexuals, among other groups. Many other arguments of mine have been enumerated here, and as such I will conclude by saying this: when we refuse to call an apple an apple, we run the risk of permitting what Orwell termed &quot;the ministry of truth.&quot; [[User:Jrcoyne99|Jrcoyne99]] ([[User talk:Jrcoyne99|talk]]) 20:07, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::{{spa|Jrcoyne99}} [[User:EvergreenFir|'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:#8b00ff;&quot;&gt;Eve&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#6528c2;&quot;&gt;rgr&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#3f5184;&quot;&gt;een&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#197947;&quot;&gt;Fir&lt;/span&gt;''']] [[User talk:EvergreenFir|(talk)]] &lt;small&gt;Please &amp;#123;&amp;#123;[[Template:re|re]]&amp;#125;&amp;#125;&lt;/small&gt; 00:17, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::: Just for the record, I have contributed to other articles before including historical topics, politics, and science fiction. I created an account specifically for this discussion. Also, someone's argument or point of view is not invalidated simply because expressing it is their first acti or one of few on the platform. It's just that for some of us this is an important matter. [[User:Jrcoyne99|Jrcoyne99]] ([[User talk:Jrcoyne99|talk]]) 02:27, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> * '''Yes''' For reasons already stated above. &lt;span style=&quot;background:#FF0000;font-type Monotype Corsiva&quot;&gt;[[User:Tills|&lt;font color=&quot;#FFFFFF&quot;&gt;Tills&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;background:#0000FF;font: Monotype Corsiva&quot;&gt;[[User_talk:Tills|&lt;font color=&quot;#FFFFFF&quot;&gt;Talk&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 20:25, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::{{User:EvergreenFir/Zombie|Tills|11 months}} [[User:EvergreenFir|'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:#8b00ff;&quot;&gt;Eve&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#6528c2;&quot;&gt;rgr&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#3f5184;&quot;&gt;een&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#197947;&quot;&gt;Fir&lt;/span&gt;''']] [[User talk:EvergreenFir|(talk)]] &lt;small&gt;Please &amp;#123;&amp;#123;[[Template:re|re]]&amp;#125;&amp;#125;&lt;/small&gt; 00:17, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::So what's the purpose for posting this? Is my opinion not relevant since I'm no longer an active editor? &lt;span style=&quot;background:#FF0000;font-type Monotype Corsiva&quot;&gt;[[User:Tills|&lt;font color=&quot;#FFFFFF&quot;&gt;Tills&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;background:#0000FF;font: Monotype Corsiva&quot;&gt;[[User_talk:Tills|&lt;font color=&quot;#FFFFFF&quot;&gt;Talk&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 05:56, 1 July 2016 (UTC) <br /> :::::It's the same as marking [[WP:SPA]]s. Given the canvassing occurring via Breitbart, such info can be useful to the closing admin when considering comments. [[User:EvergreenFir|'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:#8b00ff;&quot;&gt;Eve&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#6528c2;&quot;&gt;rgr&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#3f5184;&quot;&gt;een&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#197947;&quot;&gt;Fir&lt;/span&gt;''']] [[User talk:EvergreenFir|(talk)]] &lt;small&gt;Please &amp;#123;&amp;#123;[[Template:re|re]]&amp;#125;&amp;#125;&lt;/small&gt; 06:01, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> * '''Yes''' The list consist of terror attacks committed by Islamic extremists. Omar was an Islamic extremist, so surely the event should be added to the list. [[User:CoverMyIP|CoverMyIP]] ([[User talk:CoverMyIP|talk]]) 20:34, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::{{User:EvergreenFir/Zombie|CoverMyIP|8 months}} [[User:EvergreenFir|'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:#8b00ff;&quot;&gt;Eve&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#6528c2;&quot;&gt;rgr&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#3f5184;&quot;&gt;een&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#197947;&quot;&gt;Fir&lt;/span&gt;''']] [[User talk:EvergreenFir|(talk)]] &lt;small&gt;Please &amp;#123;&amp;#123;[[Template:re|re]]&amp;#125;&amp;#125;&lt;/small&gt; 00:17, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> * '''Strong Yes''' I believe the shooter himself qualifies as an RS, and he made his motivation for the attack clear in his public statements. It is not for us to second-guess his motivation. [[User:AlanSiegrist|AlanSiegrist]] ([[User talk:AlanSiegrist|talk]]) 20:54, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> * '''Strong Yes''': This clearly meets all criteria and there are countless sources. [[User:Singleiron|Singleiron]] ([[User talk:Singleiron|talk]]) 21:25, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::{{User:EvergreenFir/Zombie|Singleiron|7 months}} [[User:EvergreenFir|'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:#8b00ff;&quot;&gt;Eve&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#6528c2;&quot;&gt;rgr&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#3f5184;&quot;&gt;een&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#197947;&quot;&gt;Fir&lt;/span&gt;''']] [[User talk:EvergreenFir|(talk)]] &lt;small&gt;Please &amp;#123;&amp;#123;[[Template:re|re]]&amp;#125;&amp;#125;&lt;/small&gt; 00:23, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> * '''Yes''' - Meets the criteria for inclusion: It has been widely reported as a terrorist attack, the perpetrator [https://www.fbi.gov/tampa/press-releases/2016/investigative-update-regarding-pulse-nightclub-shooting identified himself as an Islamic soldier] to ''further a perceived Islamic religious or political cause'' (tell America to stop bombing Syria and Iraq and that is why he was “out here right now.”)--[[User:Isaidnoway|&lt;font face=&quot;Times New Roman&quot; color=&quot;blue&quot;&gt; '''''Isaidnoway''''' &lt;/font&gt;]][[User talk:Isaidnoway|&lt;font face=&quot;Times New Roman&quot; color=&quot;blue&quot;&gt;'''''(talk)'''''&lt;/font&gt;]] 21:26, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> *'''No'''. Imputing &quot;Islamic motivation&quot; to the Orlando shooter reminds me of the semi-hysterical tendency in the 1950s and 1960s to attribute all kinds of problems to Communist subversion. Comment below. ~ [[User:J. Johnson|J.&amp;nbsp;Johnson (JJ)]] ([[User_talk:J. Johnson#top|talk]]) 22:32, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> * '''Strong Yes''': I can't believe this is up for debate. Strong yes in agreement with all others' arguments. &lt;!-- Template:Unsigned --&gt;&lt;small&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—&amp;nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:24.164.94.198|24.164.94.198]] ([[User talk:24.164.94.198|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/24.164.94.198|contribs]]) &lt;/span&gt;&lt;/small&gt;<br /> * '''Yes''': We have multiple reliable sources which state that he pledged his allegiance to ISIS (an Islamist terrorist group) and mentioned the Boston Marathon bombers in a phone call to authorities. It was a terrorist attack, again as attested by multiple reliable sources, including the US government (President Obama himself called it such). It meets all the criteria for inclusion on this list. [[user:Titanium Dragon|&lt;span style=&quot;background-color:{{ trim | silver }}; color:{{ trim | }};&quot;&gt;{{ trim | '''Titanium Dragon''' }}&lt;/span&gt;]] ([[user talk:Titanium Dragon|talk]]) 23:40, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> *:{{ping|Titanium Dragon}} The title of this article is not [[List of terrorist attacks]]. If the US government or Obama have unequivocally labeled Orlando an Islamic terrorist attack, could you provide a link to that? &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#AAA;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 23:57, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> *::{{ping|Mandruss}}: &quot;So whatever the motivations of the killer, whatever influences led him down the path of violence and terror, whatever propaganda he was consuming from ISIL and al Qaeda, this was an act of terrorism but it was also an act of hate.&quot; Per [http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2016/06/19/lynch_partial_transcript_of_orlando_911_calls_will_have_references_to_isis_cut_out.html]. Obama does not use the term Islamist in relation to ISIS/ISIL/Islamic State or Al Qaeda for propaganda reasons, as he has noted previously: &quot;We are not at war with Islam. We are at war with people who have perverted Islam,&quot; Obama said during remarks at a summit on combating violent extremism in February. &quot;These terrorists are desperate for legitimacy. And all of us have a responsibility to refute the notion that groups like ISIL somehow represent Islam, because that is a falsehood that embraces the terrorist narrative.&quot; Per [http://www.cnn.com/2016/06/13/politics/islamic-terrorism-trump-obama-clinton/]. However, ISIS and Al Qaeda are undoubtedly Islamist groups, and are defined as such by Wikipedia and innumerable sources, and he himself acknowledges it as a perversion of Islam. Given that the perpetrator declared his allegiance to the Islamic State, and the attacks were driven by his Islamist beliefs, as supported by many sources provided, including the FBI's own transcript of the call, there's really no room for doubt from the RSs. [[user:Titanium Dragon|&lt;span style=&quot;background-color:{{ trim | silver }}; color:{{ trim | }};&quot;&gt;{{ trim | '''Titanium Dragon''' }}&lt;/span&gt;]] ([[user talk:Titanium Dragon|talk]]) 01:56, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> * '''Strong Yes''' The FBI, CNN, and CBS all stated the same thing. End of discussion. [[User:R00b07|R00b07]] ([[User talk:R00b07|talk]]) 23:42, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> *'''Yes''' Mateen clearly was an Islamist terrorist and stated as much in his 911 call. His support of other islamist terror is well established in reliable sources. His association with ISIL is more questionable but his islamist terror connection is not. Self-radicalized terrorism is still terrorism. --[[User:DHeyward|DHeyward]] ([[User talk:DHeyward|talk]]) 23:50, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> *'''No'''. Maybe he was gay. Maybe he was just a schizophrenic who escaped everyone's notice until it was too late. Maybe he actually was a jihadist. But on something this raw, something so high-profile, something being used as political ammunition so readily by non-victims, it seems imprudent to slap an &quot;Islamist terrorist attack&quot; tag on it and call it a day when errors in reporting tend to be accompanied by widely-ignored and slightly discreet retractions, if there are any at all. And since we are the 'de facto' source for so much of the English-speaking world, it is imperative that we make no mistake on the accuracy of this. There is no [[WP:DEADLINE]]. I urge that it be not added, as if it is added in error, more people stand to lose, to be hurt, to be discriminated against, than if it were to be added later, when the smoke has cleared and tempers cooled, without error, if at all. &lt;font face=&quot;#&quot; color=&quot;#35b794&quot;&gt;[[User:Dschslava|'''Dsch'''slava]]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;#3558b7&quot;&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contribs/Dschslava|'' Δx '']]&lt;/sup&gt;[[User talk:Dschslava|parlez moi]]&lt;/font&gt; 00:05, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> **Why stop with your speculation there? Maybe he was angry about the Treaty of Ghent, or the cancellation of Firefly. Who can say? If we're willing to go so far as to ignore the terrorist's ''own statements on the matter'', we might as well just make up anything we please. [[Special:Contributions/2601:602:9802:99B2:F1DB:D95B:C7B2:2EE0|2601:602:9802:99B2:F1DB:D95B:C7B2:2EE0]] ([[User talk:2601:602:9802:99B2:F1DB:D95B:C7B2:2EE0|talk]]) 04:55, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> **Then we should probably rename the page to &quot;List of Islamist terrorist attacks by clinically-sane heterosexuals.&quot; What difference does it make if he was gay or schizophrenic? He's still an Islamist, he still committed an act of terror, so doesn't that make the shooting an Islamist terror attack? The term &quot;Islamist terrorist attack&quot; is the most accurate term we could possibly use to describe this event, and it really seems like you're saying we should put a hypothetical person's feelings above factual accuracy. [[User:Vektor00|Vektor00]] ([[User talk:Vektor00|talk]]) 03:04, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::I'll reply to both of the IPs' comments here, for brevity's sake. I never said that it should never be added. I never said that it should either. The key part of my reasoning is {{tq|I urge that it be not added, as if it is added in error, more people stand to lose, to be hurt, to be discriminated against, than if it were to be added later, '''when the smoke has cleared and tempers cooled''', without error, if at all}}. Seeing as the markedly increased activity present in part caused by certain media attention is certainly not working in anyone's favor, I'm advising that we leave it alone for now and come back later when, say, all this furor has dissipated. To do otherwise could cause even more media attention, resulting in scores more flocking to this RfC with politically motivated reasons blatant and not-so-blatant, which is the exact opposite of what we want. Look at the problems that we are facing right now, in comparison. &lt;font face=&quot;#&quot; color=&quot;#35b794&quot;&gt;[[User:Dschslava|'''Dsch'''slava]]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;#3558b7&quot;&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contribs/Dschslava|'' Δx '']]&lt;/sup&gt;[[User talk:Dschslava|parlez moi]]&lt;/font&gt; 06:38, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::: &quot;I urge that it be not added, as if it is added in error, more people stand to lose, to be hurt, to be discriminated against, than if it were to be added later, when the smoke has cleared and tempers cooled&quot; The purpose of Wikipedia is not to eliminate discrimination or protect people's feelings, noble as those causes are; the purpose of Wikipedia is to disseminate accurate information. Whether or not such accurate information causes discrimination or hurt is completely irrelevant. [[Special:Contributions/2601:602:9802:99B2:F1DB:D95B:C7B2:2EE0|2601:602:9802:99B2:F1DB:D95B:C7B2:2EE0]] ([[User talk:2601:602:9802:99B2:F1DB:D95B:C7B2:2EE0|talk]]) 06:47, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::::I am fully aware of that. Perhaps I shouldn't have included that part; it's not really part of my argument anyways. The bolded part, however, is. This is a huge mess, and I have half a mind to file another ANI thread while at it. Who knows, maybe we'll all be dragged to ARBCOM. &lt;font face=&quot;#&quot; color=&quot;#35b794&quot;&gt;[[User:Dschslava|'''Dsch'''slava]]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;#3558b7&quot;&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contribs/Dschslava|'' Δx '']]&lt;/sup&gt;[[User talk:Dschslava|parlez moi]]&lt;/font&gt; 07:03, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> ** Since he pledged allegiance to ISIS, how about we look at that as a small, minor, potential motivation for killing 50 gay people? Maybe, just maybe? [[User:R00b07|R00b07]] ([[User talk:R00b07|talk]]) 00:23, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::{{u|Rb00b7}}, I'm very sure that I addressed that in my original !vote already. &lt;font face=&quot;#&quot; color=&quot;#35b794&quot;&gt;[[User:Dschslava|'''Dsch'''slava]]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;#3558b7&quot;&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contribs/Dschslava|'' Δx '']]&lt;/sup&gt;[[User talk:Dschslava|parlez moi]]&lt;/font&gt; 00:38, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::: Rb00b7? That is the most subtle insult ever. [[User:R00b07|R00b07]] ([[User talk:R00b07|talk]]) 01:43, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::::{{u|R00b07}}, I'm sorry. My eyes got crossed with those number-letter lookalikes. No harm intended. Actually, how about [[WP:AGF]], seeing as you espouse it so prominently on your userpage? &lt;font face=&quot;#&quot; color=&quot;#35b794&quot;&gt;[[User:Dschslava|'''Dsch'''slava]]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;#3558b7&quot;&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contribs/Dschslava|'' Δx '']]&lt;/sup&gt;[[User talk:Dschslava|parlez moi]]&lt;/font&gt; 04:59, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::::::: I was assuming Good Faith, just making a bad joke. Sorry [[User:R00b07|R00b07]] ([[User talk:R00b07|talk]]) 06:04, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> *'''Yes''' I can't believe we're even arguing this. --[[User:Harizotoh9|Harizotoh9]] ([[User talk:Harizotoh9|talk]]) 00:42, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> *'''Yes''' Mateen connected the attack to ISIS. (Of course there are also other dimensions.) [[User:Jason from nyc|Jason from nyc]] ([[User talk:Jason from nyc|talk]]) 02:08, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> *'''Yes''': I tend not to get involved in political arguments, as pop culture and other less-sensitive subjects are more my specialty. However, with the evidence available at the present time from credible sources, I find that it is fairly clear that the Orlando attack should be included in the list. Of course, Islamic terrorism may not have been the sole cause for the attack, but it certainly appears to have been an ingredient. --'''&lt;span style=&quot;background-color:white;color:#2929EE;&quot;&gt; Matthew&lt;/span&gt;''' - ([[User_talk:MatthewHoobin|talk]] · [[User:MatthewHoobin|userpage]] · [[Special:Contributions/MatthewHoobin|contributions]]) 05:49, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> * '''Strong Yes''': Not only do we have the killer's own statement, but cited sources from the FBI, CNN and a ton of other places that overwhelmingly qualify as WP:RS. This attack has more reliable sources supporting this claim than pretty much any other attack on this list. The fact that this is even up for debate is asinine and shows a ridiculous bias by some editors here seemingly desperate to defend the good name of Islamic terrorism. --[[User:TheTruthiness|TheTruthiness]] ([[User talk:TheTruthiness|talk]]) 07:55, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> * '''Strong Yes''': For reasons cited by others. Briefly, killer cited allegiance to ISIS but more importantly, but more importantly, the entity in question has an explicit policy of encouraging and inciting such individual actions and has, similarly, explicitly taken credit. [[User:Muldrake|Muldrake]] ([[User talk:Muldrake|talk]]) <br /> *'''Yes''' per sourced statements from FBI and others. Really a no brainer here. [[User:Mr Ernie|Mr Ernie]] ([[User talk:Mr Ernie|talk]]) 12:28, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> *'''Yes''' If the FBI and CNN says so. They are reliable sources. [[User:Supergodzilla2090|Supergodzilla2090]] ([[User talk:Supergodzilla2090|talk]]) 18:03, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> * '''Strong Yes''': A muslim man shot up a nightclub under the pretense of Radical Islam. ISIL later took credit for it. Who cares if it was carried out on ISIL's instruction or not? ISIL has sent messages to Extremists in the US and other western countries to continue carrying out LONE WOLF attacks. ISIL can't personally endorse each and every attempted bombing. They only take credit once the deed is done. The Orlando shooting was one of these encouraged lone wolf attacks, and while ISIL didn't plan it, they certainly took credit. Stop this PC nonsense. You are disrespecting the deceased victims names if you call this anything other than what it really is: Islamic Terror.<br /> <br /> ====Call for [[WP:SNOW]] close====<br /> Could someone (preferably someone with experience closing contentious RfCs and no strong feeling on the issue at hand) please apply [[WP:SNOW]] and close this RfC? --[[User:Guy Macon|Guy Macon]] ([[User talk:Guy Macon|talk]]) 22:46, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :There is no SNOW here. Articulate arguments have been made on both sides. &lt;s&gt;That said, consensus is not about numbers, and I can't imagine that there are any significant new arguments to be made, so I wouldn't oppose an early close.&lt;/s&gt; &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#AAA;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 22:54, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::Agree. {{U|Guy Macon}}, this got flooded by Breitbart readers. Just because a ton of people showed up today to !vote yes doesn't mean there's consensus. [[User:EvergreenFir|'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:#8b00ff;&quot;&gt;Eve&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#6528c2;&quot;&gt;rgr&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#3f5184;&quot;&gt;een&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#197947;&quot;&gt;Fir&lt;/span&gt;''']] [[User talk:EvergreenFir|(talk)]] &lt;small&gt;Please &amp;#123;&amp;#123;[[Template:re|re]]&amp;#125;&amp;#125;&lt;/small&gt; 23:18, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::(edit conflict) This is not a [[WP:SNOW]], and even less so because there are serious [[WP:CANVASSING]] issues raised by the Breitbart article, and the fact that this seems to have blown up with new and dormant accounts after it was published. <br /> ::I would oppose an early close. I don't care which way it goes, but I think it's a serious [[WP:POV]] issue to rush to a conclusion after another website makes a decision on what they think WP should say, and apparently sends a mob here. It's not going to be the end of the world if this sits for a day or two. [[User:Timothyjosephwood|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#a56d3f;font-family:Impact;&quot;&gt;Timothy&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#6f3800;font-family:Impact;&quot;&gt;Joseph&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#422501;font-family:Impact;&quot;&gt;Wood&lt;/span&gt;]] 23:23, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::Withdraw my non-opposition to early close, pending a resolution at [[Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard#More eyes on List of Islamist terrorist attacks]]. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#AAA;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 23:31, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :We don't run an RfC for 8 days, and then quickly close the RfC after multiple sleeper accounts have been canvased by a radical right wing blog. - [[user: MrX|Mr]][[user talk:MrX|X]] 23:30, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::Agreed. Just like we didn't close it even earlier when more of the radical left wings were saying no. We let it run it's course like most RfC's. [[User:Fyunck(click)|Fyunck(click)]] ([[User talk:Fyunck(click)|talk]]) 00:44, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::Staying open simply to accumulate more &quot;me too&quot; !votes is counter to the principle that consensus is not about numbers. If you can show evidence that a large number of &quot;radical left wing&quot; !votes are from single-purpose accounts solicited from off-wiki, please do. Barring that, you have presented a false equivalence. Anyway, if it's true that it's not about numbers, I don't know that the Breitbart invasion can do much damage. Hopefully the closer will have the wisdom to look beyond the numbers and, to the extent they consider them at all, will also look at the !voters' contribs. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#AAA;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 01:01, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::I'd say there's little hope in gauging a consensus until the sleepers go back to sleep. I wouldn't even bother arguing the point until tomorrow. Partisan arguments will only encourage those brought here for partisan reasons. [[User:Timothyjosephwood|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#a56d3f;font-family:Impact;&quot;&gt;Timothy&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#6f3800;font-family:Impact;&quot;&gt;Joseph&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#422501;font-family:Impact;&quot;&gt;Wood&lt;/span&gt;]] 01:44, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::::::Those that are here for partisan reasons were here before the article even came out. In my opinion, that's why the articles were written in the first place. [[User:R00b07|R00b07]] ([[User talk:R00b07|talk]]) 01:48, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::::The accounts you dismiss as &quot;sleepers&quot; appear to be more cognizant—or more able to find sources for their arguments—than many of the no voters, who have relied upon now superseded evidence about &quot;gay lovers&quot; and a particularly bizarre argument about aliens. That users are attempting to blithely dismiss the ''yes'' cohort as &quot;canvased by radical right wing blog&quot; seems to suggest a number of accounts on the ''no'' side have an agenda just as transparent. As far as I'm concerned, any doubts over motive could have been mentioned in the description of the attack, and if the no vote succeeds then there will appear to be a false consensus, which will be argued over endlessly by users citing a significant number of quality sources to support the inclusion of the attack. --[[User:Toomanyaccountsargh|Toomanyaccountsargh]] ([[User talk:Toomanyaccountsargh|talk]]) 05:49, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::::It's funny you should mention that; I took the time to go back through the entire RFC (and indeed this talk page X_x) to examine the argument from the side of the nays - and except for some quotes from MrX in an early statement above there actually isn't a single linked piece of evidence from any RS to rebut the statement &quot;The Orlando shooting was a terrorist display of Islamic Fundamentalism.&quot; The quotes from MrX are wrong in twofold; one from early in the case when information was scarce and motivation unclear, and another stating that Mateen was not a full member of a terror organization - which while apparently true does not mean this wasn't a Islamist terror attack (you don't need to join ISIL to kill for Islam). Every single other argument I can find is either completely OR or a statement of neutrality or confusion over motivations, quote possibly due to editors not having read the new official FBI information. Just to sum this up cogently; there isn't a single Wiki-essentials based argument as to the nays here, and very much many for the ayes with all the requisite sources and weight. EDIT: Or rather, no '''new''' information to rebut the ayes. There's plenty of older articles and sources that ponder and report on several rumors and fallacies that have been stated officially by the FBI as false as of this point, which I don't feel bear repeating or applying due to the new given information - unless someone wants to make a case that the original rumor mills are more reliable and weighty then the recent official FBI releases and the news coverage thereof? [[Special:Contributions/69.114.53.16|69.114.53.16]] ([[User talk:69.114.53.16|talk]]) 06:22, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> There is only one way this RfC is going to turn out. Better to cut the drama and close it right now. Even if you remove the &quot;sleepers&quot;, there are plenty of other Yes votes. [[User:Kingsindian|Kingsindian]]&amp;nbsp;[[User Talk: Kingsindian|&amp;#9821;]]&amp;nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Kingsindian|&amp;#9818;]] 07:18, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> :There is a risk that following Breitbart getting its panties in a bunch over this, the article is going to exactly what Omar Mateen wanted, which is to describe the work of a deranged loner who wanted attention as an Islamic terrorist attack.--'''''[[User:ianmacm|&lt;span style=&quot;background:#88b;color:#cff;font-variant:small-caps&quot;&gt;♦Ian&lt;span style=&quot;background:#99c&quot;&gt;Ma&lt;span style=&quot;background:#aad&quot;&gt;c&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;M♦&lt;/span&gt;]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:ianmacm|(talk to me)]]&lt;/sup&gt;''''' 07:24, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::See, I have a problem with that reasoning - it's completely unsubstantiated OR. There's no problem with editors believing that, but that's not a Wiki-appropriate argument towards nay (though it's been repeated a few times). Mateen himself, the FBI, news organizations reporting on the FBI findings and plenty of talking head quotes all agree that this was indeed an Islamist terrorist attack. Even regardless of whether or not Mateen wanted it as such, it still clearly fulfills those stipulations both as an event and as a Wikipedia article that should be listed here, due to weight and sources. It's been great that people were protecting this page when everything was fuzzy as I said below (this is 69.114.53.16, bit the bullet made an account) but clearly things have changed. To continue and deny this to be listed as an Islamist attack without several supporting RS's - following the new information beyond the rumor mills - would be very strange, in my opinion. [[User:SpeakerOfReason|SpeakerOfReason]] ([[User talk:SpeakerOfReason|talk]]) 07:38, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::As I've said over at [[Talk:2016 Orlando nightclub shooting]], many people are making the assumption that Mateen was of sound mind when he carried out the attack. He may or may not have been legally insane, but there are numerous reports that he was mentally unstable and had expressed hatred of gays etc. This makes the motive less clear cut than a straightforward terrorist attack. The problem with categories and lists is that they do not allow for any nuances and end up with a [[false dichotomy]] (black/white, yes/no) when things are more complicated than this simplistic version.--'''''[[User:ianmacm|&lt;span style=&quot;background:#88b;color:#cff;font-variant:small-caps&quot;&gt;♦Ian&lt;span style=&quot;background:#99c&quot;&gt;Ma&lt;span style=&quot;background:#aad&quot;&gt;c&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;M♦&lt;/span&gt;]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:ianmacm|(talk to me)]]&lt;/sup&gt;''''' 07:42, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::And I completely agree with everything you just said personally; the dismantling of our mental health care system and the silence of America on the topic is horrendous as a general point of information - but that doesn't apply to Wikipedia. I'm of the opinion that anyone who decides to bomb/shoot a crowd of people is most definitely not of sound mind; but not being all there mentally doesn't mean he wasn't doing it for Islam as well. Having mental health issues and being a terrorist aren't mutually exclusive, and while reports speaking of his mental health are also important information there's a huge amount of weight of sources also claiming as fact that he was an Islamist terrorist. Almost nothing in life is straightforward, and the same could be said about any bomber/shooter on this list as well as Mateen. None of this precludes the Orlando shooting from being added to this list, and anyone who reads that article (whether found through the list or otherwise) will be able to attain the more detailed information that surrounds it. Speaking of working on the Orlando article, I don't know if the sources quoted all around were actually taken from the Orlando page or if they're new but all the stuff linked around would be helpful to mine for it, if they weren't there already - just in case anyone was interested and hadn't considered it. [[User:SpeakerOfReason|SpeakerOfReason]] ([[User talk:SpeakerOfReason|talk]]) 07:56, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::While RS is essential, it is not everything. [[WP:ONUS]]: ''While information must be verifiable in order to be included in an article, this does not mean that all verifiable information must be included in an article. Consensus may determine that certain information does not improve an article, and that it should be omitted or presented instead in a different article.'' I'd suggest that the yeas stop implying that nays, established editors in good standing, are policy-ignorant bozos and/or POV zealots. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#AAA;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 07:57, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::No, I've totally been on your side in regards to protecting the article (and never did/meant to call anyone a POV zealot - unless you aren't referring to me?), but things have changed with more recent information - specifically the FBI statements and news/talking head coverage of. [[WP:DUE]] and [[WP:WEIGHT]], and I'd say the weight of discussion here and the due of the new information makes it pretty clear this is information starkly relevant and necessary for the article regarding it - the side effect of which ends up with the article being listed here, due to RS's attributing and confirming Islamist motivations. The fact that there is a large conflict of information at all from the rumor mills beforehand and the new information now is pretty important as well - I've said several times that that article is rife for a subsection specifically on that subject - but there's every reason (from onus, due, and weight) that the information should be included, and no Wikipedia reason it should not. [[User:SpeakerOfReason|SpeakerOfReason]] ([[User_talk:SpeakerOfReason|be gentle!]]) 08:27, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::::No, I wasn't referring to you. But I question the value of more circular discussion, which is accomplishing little but creating more for the closer to read. I've stated my argument as concisely as I can in my !vote (updating it as my thinking has crystalized), and I'm going to try to sit it out from here on. I wouldn't presume to insist that others do the same, but I hope most of them will. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#AAA;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 08:37, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::::I mean I totally understand your point of view on the matter with regards to how closely we define acts of terror in context with links to actual terror groups - I think if there's even the slightest reason why the Orlando shooting shouldn't be on this list, it would be yours - I just don't think we can quibble regarding the details when there's so many places in the new information where &quot;Islamic/Islamist Terrorist&quot; is confirmed by RS. I just don't agree completely with your point because this isn't a list of &quot;Official Terrorist Group Attacks&quot; but &quot;List of Islamist terrorist attacks&quot; and sole gunman/bombers (in that context) should qualify. [[User:SpeakerOfReason|SpeakerOfReason]] ([[User_talk:SpeakerOfReason|be gentle!]]) 08:46, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::::::I get it. I understand and respect your position. But the point of an RfC is to convince the closer, not each other. I have VERY rarely seen an editor change their mind as a result of RfC discussion, and the majority of those few times it was me. Ergo, extended discussion is largely a waste of time, and I've felt this way in every long RfC I've ever seen. We convince the closer, or not, mostly in our !votes and perhaps a bit of discussion immediately following them. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#AAA;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 08:55, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> * I support the call for a SNOW close. [[User:D.Creish|D.Creish]] ([[User talk:D.Creish|talk]]) 14:26, 1 July 2016 (UTC)f<br /> <br /> === Discussion ===<br /> See discussion [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:List_of_Islamist_terrorist_attacks#Orlando_shooting here]. Further comments can be added below. [[User:Kingsindian|Kingsindian]]&amp;nbsp;[[User Talk: Kingsindian|&amp;#9821;]]&amp;nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Kingsindian|&amp;#9818;]] 00:44, 23 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> I have left a message on the talk page [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:2016_Orlando_nightclub_shooting#RfC_input_welcomed here]. [[User:Kingsindian|Kingsindian]]&amp;nbsp;[[User Talk: Kingsindian|&amp;#9821;]]&amp;nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Kingsindian|&amp;#9818;]] 15:53, 23 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> *Comment - The info regarding Mateen's alleged lover is currently just a rumor and a claim made by one person (to the best of my knowledge). We cannot treat it as anything but that. Should investigators corroborate that he was indeed his lover, that would be different. But afaik, we don't have that corroboration yet. [[User:EvergreenFir|'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:#8b00ff;&quot;&gt;Eve&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#6528c2;&quot;&gt;rgr&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#3f5184;&quot;&gt;een&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#197947;&quot;&gt;Fir&lt;/span&gt;''']] [[User talk:EvergreenFir|(talk)]] &lt;small&gt;Please &amp;#123;&amp;#123;[[Template:re|re]]&amp;#125;&amp;#125;&lt;/small&gt; 16:24, 23 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> *:Right. It's about as credible as ISIL taking credit for the shooting.- [[user: MrX|Mr]][[user talk:MrX|X]] 01:47, 24 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::: A more cogent point I have yet to see regarding this travesty. Thank you, MrX. &lt;&gt; [[User:Alt lys er svunnet hen|Alt lys er svunnet hen]] ([[User talk:Alt lys er svunnet hen|talk]]) 08:51, 28 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::It is important to bear in mind that the authorities have had a significant rethink about the motives since the first 24 hours after the shooting. Immediately afterwards, it seemed plausible that this was a rerun of the Bataclan theatre shooting. While the Orlando shooting was similar in its style, Omar Mateen was a lot like previous U.S. mass shooters and may have added radical Islam into the mix after reading some online propaganda material. He may have been trying to big it up when all he really wanted was notoriety, like many previous mass shooters.--'''''[[User:ianmacm|&lt;span style=&quot;background:#88b;color:#cff;font-variant:small-caps&quot;&gt;♦Ian&lt;span style=&quot;background:#99c&quot;&gt;Ma&lt;span style=&quot;background:#aad&quot;&gt;c&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;M♦&lt;/span&gt;]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:ianmacm|(talk to me)]]&lt;/sup&gt;''''' 04:57, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::::Let's say this is true; does this automatically mean that the fact he claimed allegiance to the Islamic terrorist groups null and void? Are we to dismiss the fact he said &quot;I'm committing these acts in the name of Islam&quot;? (not actual quote but you get what I mean) I'd argue that it's just more information on top of what we already know, which is that this is an self-described Islamic terrorist attack. New evidence does not make it any more or less of a terrorist attack. [[User:Sethyre|Sethyre]] ([[User talk:Sethyre|talk]]) 19:24, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::::To further what Sethyre has said, Mateen claimed it as an Islamic attack himself - to the authorities directly, disregarding the other supporting facts - the Islamic terror group in question claimed responsibility (or more pertinent perhaps, their approval) and the FBI themselves, primary authorities investigating the matter, also stated it was driven at least in large part by Mateens Islamic beliefs. Many reliable sources - repeatedly quoted and linked in different places in this RfC - have quoted this language directly, and several even reporting it in their own voices. Regardless of statements of &quot;confusion&quot; made by third parties and other talking heads, is not any form of action other then directly recording the news and these statements (perhaps with a conflict section specifically on this matter, if such is still opined by others as somehow incorrect with good sources) given their weight on this issue anything more then OR or POV? As I stated in the edit request further down, I don't normally comment on Wikipedia, and as such shall remain an IP - whether you feel that takes credibility away from my reasoning or not is up to you, but the reporting on this case is pretty clear cut from where I'm sitting. [[Special:Contributions/69.114.53.16|69.114.53.16]] ([[User talk:69.114.53.16|talk]]) 20:33, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::::::It is completely irrelevant whether or not he also had other motives for his attack - many Islamist terrorist attacks are also hate crimes, or are enacted to gain revenge for some real or imagined slight. The fact that he actively pledged allegiance to ISIS, had a history of sympathizing with radical Islamist beliefs, that the US government has agreed that his Islamist beliefs played a role in the attack, and that ISIS took credit for it all points towards it being an Islamist attack. If he had other motives as well, that doesn't change the fact that he still belongs on this list. [[user:Titanium Dragon|&lt;span style=&quot;background-color:{{ trim | silver }}; color:{{ trim | }};&quot;&gt;{{ trim | '''Titanium Dragon''' }}&lt;/span&gt;]] ([[user talk:Titanium Dragon|talk]]) 23:47, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> *'''Yes''' The fact that we are discussing this shows some of the fundamental flaws in Wikipedia (much as I love it) that are disappointing. We are not required to give both sides equal time, this isn't a 24 hour news program where 1 outlier who believes aliens gave us technology gets to debate 1 professor who says they didn't. The terrorist left a claim, it's been reported many times, there should be no dispute - and yet - here we are :sigh:. [[User:BHC|BHC]] ([[User talk:BHC|talk]]) 20:37, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> *: Your vote is in the wrong place {{ping|BHC}} I suggest you move it to the appropriate subsection (in this case 6.1 Survey). [[User:Mr rnddude|Mr rnddude]] ([[User talk:Mr rnddude|talk]]) 23:26, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> * For all of you &quot;strong yes&quot;-ers: if someone, in the course of committing an extravagant outrage, proclaimed &quot;allegiance&quot; to extra-terrestial aliens, would that prove he was an extra-terrestial alien? ~ [[User:J. Johnson|J.&amp;nbsp;Johnson (JJ)]] ([[User_talk:J. Johnson#top|talk]]) 22:35, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::: If other attacks on this page have been listed for just the attacker pledging their allegiance to Islamist groups, what is the reasoning for not allowing the Orlando Shooting on the list? &lt;!-- Template:Unsigned --&gt;&lt;small&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—&amp;nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:2601:40d:8100:e810::2|2601:40d:8100:e810::2]] ([[User talk:2601:40d:8100:e810::2|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/2601:40d:8100:e810::2|contribs]]) &lt;/span&gt;&lt;/small&gt;<br /> ::: Have these theoretical extra-terrestiral aliens promoted lone wolf attacks, and have they acknowledged the actions of this person? In other words, your strawman is bunk. [[Special:Contributions/206.190.75.9|206.190.75.9]] ([[User talk:206.190.75.9|talk]]) 23:41, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::: To copy from below: The [[Charleston church shooting]] is currently in the category ''White supremacy in the United States'' despite the perpetrator having had no formal links to white supremacist groups. The motive was determined via consulting his manifesto and circumstantial evidence about which websites he had visited. The article itself features statements that cast doubt over the white supremacist element of the attack -- ''&quot;I don't think the church was his primary target because he told us he was going for the school. But I think he couldn't get into the school because of the security ... so I think he just settled for the church.&quot;'' Mateen's manifesto was transmitted via phone calls and the transcript features numerous mentions of Islamism and ideas frequently expressed by groups that are clearly Islamist. If we're going to cast aspersions over one manifesto, then it would only seem unbiased to call the motive on the other attack suspect, too. In fact, this would require every manifesto to be treated, as you say, like a person &quot;pledging allegiance to aliens&quot; and of no relevance to the motive for the attack. --[[User:Toomanyaccountsargh|Toomanyaccountsargh]] ([[User talk:Toomanyaccountsargh|talk]]) 05:31, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::: If we had a list of &quot;Terrorist attacks by UFO conspiracy theorists&quot;, yeah, we'd include him on that list. It is irrelevant whether or not the guy is a member of ISIS, though; this is about Islamist terrorist attacks, not ISIS terrorist attacks. [[user:Titanium Dragon|&lt;span style=&quot;background-color:{{ trim | silver }}; color:{{ trim | }};&quot;&gt;{{ trim | '''Titanium Dragon''' }}&lt;/span&gt;]] ([[user talk:Titanium Dragon|talk]]) 23:42, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> <br /> I disagree. There is more evidence that 9/11 wasn't an Islamist attack when compared to Orlando. Bin Laden originally stated he didn't do it. He retracted his statements, and CIA and FBI intel makes it undeniable that Bin Laden caused 9/11.<br /> <br /> Meanwhile, The Orlando shooter made his motives clear from day 1. [[User:R00b07|R00b07]] ([[User talk:R00b07|talk]]) 23:54, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> <br /> I also don't care what Breitbart said. A fact is a fact. He pledged allegiance to ISIS. That's like if during the Troubles someone pledged allegiance to the IRA and shot British people. It's clear what the motive is. If Breitbart said 2+2=4 would we change it just to spite Breitbart? [[User:R00b07|R00b07]] ([[User talk:R00b07|talk]]) 00:06, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> :That is the most ridiculous argument I have ever heard (on this page so far). &quot;He said it, therefore it is&quot;, no sir, the motivations are not clear and that's why we're having this discussion. I could pledge allegiance to Black Lives Matter and go on a rampage against the white community, that doesn't necessarily mean that that was my real motive. Maybe I just don't care anymore or am actually a psycho. The point is, you don't know his motivations, we don't know his motivations, we only know what sources are suggesting are his motivations and what he has claimed are his motivations. There's reason to believe that he's covering up his real motivations, and that's why we're discussing this. [[User:Mr rnddude|Mr rnddude]] ([[User talk:Mr rnddude|talk]]) 00:12, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::{{tq|we only know what sources are suggesting are his motivations and what he has claimed are his motivations.}} And that's all we need to know to include, list, and edit articles on subjects for Wikipedia - indeed, that's all we're '''allowed''' to use when doing such. We report NPOV what the reliable sources say, which in this case the shooter himself, the FBI investigating and releasing information and the news organizations consequently writing articles about those findings all qualify as such. Going further is OR and it definitely wouldn't be the first, or last article on Wikipedia that; for reasons of credibility, NPOV, and BLP - isn't allowed to dig deeper into mysterious motivations when we have due weight sources '''not''' reporting on them to any effective degree. [[Special:Contributions/69.114.53.16|69.114.53.16]] ([[User talk:69.114.53.16|talk]]) 00:27, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::You are quite correct, and the predominance of reliable sources do not state unequivocally (the appropriate bar for a list that is without explanation or context) that this was an Islamic terrorist attack. The original research is to place it in this list based on the ambiguous connections that ''have'' been made. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#AAA;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 00:31, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::The reliable sources are still out on the discussion (is he islamist, gay, schizophrenic, etc). The investigation is still going on, when the investigation ends, when we have undeniable/conclusive evidence, we'll make the report. The point being, we are not reporting anything until we have substantiated facts. Reporting nothing fits well within NPOV, reporting something controversial not so much. [[User:Mr rnddude|Mr rnddude]] ([[User talk:Mr rnddude|talk]]) 00:32, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::You're both correct that there is conflict between news services regarding exactly what Mateen's motivations are, and there are just as many that don't state it was Islamic terrorism in their own voice and quote others who also refuse to label it as such - but there's also many places that do (plenty of which are linked around the RFC above). While the news services are still bumbling around this and perhaps need to be taken with a grain of salt - or two - I'd posit that the statements made by Mateen himself and the information and conclusions so far discussed and released by the FBI are perhaps at this moment, until given evidence otherwise, more weighty themselves - and these are sources that unequivocally '''do''' include the attack under Islamic fundamentalism. I did suggest earlier in one of the edit requests that perhaps the best result for now would be to include the Orlando shooting in this list, but also add a strong conflict subsection explaining the currently ongoing nature of the case and the disputation of facts currently presented, focusing on refuting the possible Islamic involvement in such. [[Special:Contributions/69.114.53.16|69.114.53.16]] ([[User talk:69.114.53.16|talk]]) 00:52, 1 July 2016 (UTC) <br /> :::::::::: &quot;and there are just as many that don't state it was Islamic terrorism in their own voice &quot; Can I have a list of those sources? I'm really curious on who states that. [[User:R00b07|R00b07]] ([[User talk:R00b07|talk]]) 02:00, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::::::::::There's several up above (most famously MrX's response near the top) but take heed - I'm not saying they definitively stated it was '''not''' an Islamic attack, but that they didn't state it was, or at the very least offered quotes saying the same and avoiding the issue in their own words entirely. Which, in contrast - to me, anyway - lends more credence and weight to the official statements from the FBI as they have definitively stated a conclusion as far as Mateen's motivations go (and aligning with Mateen's statements) while the news organizations opposed to this are making no claims other than a paraphrased &quot;We can't know for sure!&quot; which is a definitive cloud of nebulous indecision and without any sort of supported substantiated evidence - unlike the FBI. [[Special:Contributions/69.114.53.16|69.114.53.16]] ([[User talk:69.114.53.16|talk]]) 02:25, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> :{{tq|Anyone saying it wasn't an Islamic attack is being intentionally dishonest.}} Right, we're all just ISIL sleeper agents, placed in the West and raised as Westerners to represent jihadism at en-Wikipedia. Or, just maybe, we have a different viewpoint from you as to the proper use of a list that is devoid of explanation or context. I'd suggest you have a read of [[WP:AGF]] and avoid any further such comments. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#AAA;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 00:13, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> :: This is the most ironic comment I have ever seen, as it was assumed that I was in bad faith. Also, do you have a more logical reason why he did what he did?[[User:R00b07|R00b07]] ([[User talk:R00b07|talk]]) 01:20, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::There is a substantial lack of irony in the comment, there is no strawman just a bit of sarcasm. The point being delivered is that we have differing opinions to you, there is controversy surrounding the motives of the attacker and so some of us are opposed to their inclusion in this article. It's quite that simple. [[User:Mr rnddude|Mr rnddude]] ([[User talk:Mr rnddude|talk]]) 01:26, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::Sub comment; A more logical reason? you realize that we're discussing human motives, the epitomy of the illogical (slight hyperbole as it were). I can suggest other reasons (logical or otherwise); his religious beliefs conflicting with his own self (this does not mean a connection with the Daesh), shame for his own sexuality, schizophrenia (mentioned somewhere above, wasn't even aware of it to be honest), delusions and so forth. [[User:Mr rnddude|Mr rnddude]] ([[User talk:Mr rnddude|talk]]) 01:31, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::::::: If that's the case, I honestly and seriously recommend making a List of Schizophreniac attacks, and adding the Orlando shooting to it.[[User:R00b07|R00b07]] ([[User talk:R00b07|talk]]) 01:36, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::::::::For clarity, I'm not saying it is or isn't, only suggesting that it ''could be'', and because it ''could be'', that qualifies the argument that ISIL inspired attack ''might not be'', because it ''might not be'', we shouldn't include it in this article until we can qualify that it ''is'' or ''isn't''. [[User:Mr rnddude|Mr rnddude]] ([[User talk:Mr rnddude|talk]]) 01:40, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::::::::::I'm not stating that ISIL caused the attack. This isn't a list of ISIL attacks. What every major news outlet (CBS, NBC, ABC, and hell before the FBI censored the phone call) reported was that the Orlando Massacre was an Islamic Terror attack. If we can't classify it as an Islamic Terror Attack, what are we going to classify it as instead? Because removing the Massacre and not giving a new place would be not good. [[User:R00b07|R00b07]] ([[User talk:R00b07|talk]]) 01:56, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::::::::Must everything be placed into a nice, simple category? Is that what we're here for, to encourage simple-minded worldviews, sort of like Hollywood movies? I hope not. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#AAA;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 01:49, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::::::::::: Yes, everything should be placed into an appropriate list. If it doesn't fit one list, it should fit into another. I thought the point of Wikipedia was to &quot;collect and develop educational content under a free license or in the public domain, and to disseminate it effectively and globally&quot;. [[User:R00b07|R00b07]] ([[User talk:R00b07|talk]]) 01:59, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::::::::::::Key words; &quot;appropriate list&quot;, this might not be the appropriate list, we might not have a list that is appropriate, we might not need one. [[User:Mr rnddude|Mr rnddude]] ([[User talk:Mr rnddude|talk]]) 02:01, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::::::::::::Fair enough, good point. [[User:R00b07|R00b07]] ([[User talk:R00b07|talk]]) 02:17, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::::::::::::{{tq|Yes, everything should be placed into an appropriate list.}} Strongly disagree, for the reason I stated. But I'm open to seeing the Wikipedia policy or guideline that says that. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#AAA;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 02:04, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> {{outdent}} ((&quot;But I'm open to seeing the Wikipedia policy or guideline that says that.&quot;)) It's not a guideline, it's common sense that if Wikipedia's mission is to &quot;collect and develop educational content&quot; and &quot;to disseminate it effectively and globally&quot;, that having attacks in an organized list makes it easier to collect and share to the public. But I'm open to seeing something instead of an organized list that would better &quot;disseminate it effectively and globally&quot;. [[User:R00b07|R00b07]] ([[User talk:R00b07|talk]]) 02:17, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> :{{User:Cyclopia/Ubx common sense}} &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#AAA;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 02:26, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> :: Regardless if it's common sense or reason, my point remains and you haven't addressed it. [[User:R00b07|R00b07]] ([[User talk:R00b07|talk]]) 02:28, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::Well there's no addressing the logical long-jump from &quot;collect and develop educational content&quot;, and &quot;to disseminate it effectively and globally&quot;, to &quot;include Orlando in a list of Islamic terrorism attacks&quot;. So I won't try to. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#AAA;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 02:31, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::You seem to be missing my point. I NEVER SAID that &quot;collect and develop educational content&quot; and &quot;to disseminate it effectively and globally&quot; means that you must &quot;include Orlando in a list of Islamic terrorism attacks&quot;. I said that &quot;having attacks in an organized list makes it easier to collect and share to the public&quot; and that's what Wikipedia is all about. Adding Orlando to the list of attacks should only be done if there are enough sources, and the sources have been laid out a million times. I can provide links to the sources if you want. [[User:R00b07|R00b07]] ([[User talk:R00b07|talk]]) 02:44, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::::We are beyond circular argument here, so I refer you to my !vote and previous comments for my response. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#AAA;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 03:15, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::Per [[WP:AGF]], do not accuse others of being intentionally dishonest (your words, no &quot;straw man&quot; there) ''without clear evidence.'' The only reason we're not at [[WP:ANI]] now is that you didn't make the accusation against a specific editor (but that line could be moved if you persist). &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#AAA;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 01:27, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::::Edited my comment per [[WP:AGF]]. Also, I understand that being passive aggressive is allowed. [[User:R00b07|R00b07]] ([[User talk:R00b07|talk]]) 01:32, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::::I don't think your comment about the strawman was the issue being addressed by Mandruss, rather the insinuation that we're all being &quot;intentionally dishonest&quot; because we disagree. [[User:Mr rnddude|Mr rnddude]] ([[User talk:Mr rnddude|talk]]) 01:35, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::::::Edited my comment per [[WP:AGF]]. [[User:R00b07|R00b07]] ([[User talk:R00b07|talk]]) 01:39, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> We do know how to use the outdent template, right? I've applied it here for legibility reasons, by the way. I've also eliminated unnecessary indentations. Tell me if you feel I've made a mistake. &lt;font face=&quot;#&quot; color=&quot;#35b794&quot;&gt;[[User:Dschslava|'''Dsch'''slava]]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;#3558b7&quot;&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contribs/Dschslava|'' Δx '']]&lt;/sup&gt;[[User talk:Dschslava|parlez moi]]&lt;/font&gt; 06:25, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ===Real Talk===<br /> * Obama said that &quot;So whatever the motivations of the killer, whatever influences led him down the path of violence and terror, whatever propaganda he was consuming from ISIL and al Qaeda, this was an act of terrorism but it was also an act of hate.&quot; per [https://www.whitehouse.gov/blog/2016/06/12/president-obama-tragic-shooting-orlando]<br /> *The FBI released a transcript of the attacker's phone call to 911 that included him pledging allegiance to ISIS and identifying himself as an Islamic soldier: [http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2016/06/20/fbi-release-orlando-911-transcripts/86130520/]<br /> * Reuters notes the shooter expressed support for multiple Islamist groups, and the FBI said that he pledged his support to Islamist extremists and referred to him being radicalized: [http://www.reuters.com/article/us-florida-shooting-nightclub-idUSKCN0YY08B]<br /> * Hillary Clinton referred to it as &quot;radical Islamism&quot;: [http://www.politico.com/story/2016/06/hillary-clinton-radical-islam-224255] Donald Trump did as well.<br /> That's the terrorist himself, the president, both of the major presidential candidates, the FBI, and Reuters all referring to him pledging allegience to an Islamist group, being an Islamist, radicalization, radical islamism, it being a terrorist attack, ect. What exactly are people complaining about here? Wikipedia itself classifies ISIS/ISIL/Islamic State as an Islamist group. [[user:Titanium Dragon|&lt;span style=&quot;background-color:{{ trim | silver }}; color:{{ trim | }};&quot;&gt;{{ trim | '''Titanium Dragon''' }}&lt;/span&gt;]] ([[user talk:Titanium Dragon|talk]]) 02:14, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :Thank you. You have created a separate section for your argument, it being obviously more important than the rest. Can the rest of us do that, resulting in over a hundred !vote subsections? &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#AAA;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 02:19, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::: Why do you feel the need to be hostile in order to make your point? Remember to [[WP:AGF]]. [[WP:ANI]] applies to everyone. Maybe he is new and made a new section because he doesn't know any better. Assume Good Faith. [[User:R00b07|R00b07]] ([[User talk:R00b07|talk]]) 02:25, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::::Holy crap, why are people SO ADAMANT on keeping the Orlando shooting off the list? It's like people are trying to avoid coming to terms with reality, and the more evidence and arguments FOR keeping it on the list pop up, the more frustrated and angry they get. Just look at the comment in response to this, it's completely avoiding the point and instead attacks Titanium Dragon for making a separate space. [[User:Sethyre|Sethyre]] ([[User talk:Sethyre|talk]]) 02:30, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::::: (&quot;Holy crap, why are people SO ADAMANT on keeping the Orlando shooting off the list?&quot;) You know why. ;) But yeah, it's sad when people who speak against the stream get replied with sarcastic comments. (Assume Good Faith doesn't work here, since it was already admitted)[[User:R00b07|R00b07]] ([[User talk:R00b07|talk]]) 02:33, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::::{{tq|Holy crap, why are people SO ADAMANT on keeping the Orlando shooting off the list?}} If you actually don't understand the arguments, you haven't read much of them. I understand it's a ton of reading, but it beats endless redundant repetition. And speaking only for myself, I'm neither frustrated nor angry, although I do object to a separate subsection for the argument that could have been made in a !vote. It's the same reasoning as is applied to extensive use of boldfacing or underscoring. If no one else shares that view, fine. I'm capable of deferring to consensus on this as much as anything else. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#AAA;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 02:48, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::::: Let's dissect this one again. &quot;If you actually don't understand the arguments, you haven't read much of them.&quot; I'm assuming you mean well by this comment, but it's really hard to. To me it seems like another insult. [[User:R00b07|R00b07]] ([[User talk:R00b07|talk]]) 02:53, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::::::Given the wall-of-text effect, it's anything but an insult to suggest that someone may not have read much of it. Being a very slow reader, I am myself forced to skip much of that when I arrive at an RfC late, and I wouldn't feel insulted if someone pointed that out to me after I had implied that I don't understand the opposition's arguments. My comments are clearly not in violation of AGF, so I'd ask that you take any further discussion about my tone to my talk page. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#AAA;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 02:59, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> ** When Hillary Clinton, Donald Trump, (I know not reliable sources, just making a point) CNN, NBC, CBS, ABC, and The FBI (Reliable Sources) agree that the motivation was Islamic Terror, that sounds like a consensus to me. However, somehow the argument manages to devolve into talks about schizophrenia and self hatred. [[User:R00b07|R00b07]] ([[User talk:R00b07|talk]]) 02:25, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> ***I personally have no stakes in this, I only care that we wait until either we have unequivocal evidence of such (which seems to be well documented above) or that we come to a consensus. I mentioned the alternate arguments because I'd noted them in some places. [[User:Mr rnddude|Mr rnddude]] ([[User talk:Mr rnddude|talk]]) 02:37, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> ****The thing that is confusing me is that we have a ton of reliable sources, and people are talking about extraterrestrials and stuff. Wikipedia relies on reliable sources and [[WP:COMMONNAME]] to name/identify stuff. Given that there seem to be an overwhelming number of RSes aligned on this point, I'm not sure what the argument is really about at this point. What else could we possibly be looking for? When the terrorist, a terrorist group, the US government, a variety of news sources, and competing presidential candidates all agree on something, it seems like that's about as much agreement as you can reasonably hope for. [[user:Titanium Dragon|&lt;span style=&quot;background-color:{{ trim | silver }}; color:{{ trim | }};&quot;&gt;{{ trim | '''Titanium Dragon''' }}&lt;/span&gt;]] ([[user talk:Titanium Dragon|talk]]) 04:23, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> *****What you're essentially saying (correct me if I'm wrong) is that the arguments for inclusion are clearly stronger than those against. If you're right, any competent closer will see that and close in your favor. A new separate subsection doesn't get us any closer to that end, and only serves to give undue &lt;u&gt;emphasis&lt;/u&gt; to your argument—and create yet more redundancy for the closer to slog through. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#AAA;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 04:37, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> ******Yelling at people to shut up does not actually reduce the volume in the room, you know. [[Special:Contributions/2601:602:9802:99B2:F1DB:D95B:C7B2:2EE0|2601:602:9802:99B2:F1DB:D95B:C7B2:2EE0]] ([[User talk:2601:602:9802:99B2:F1DB:D95B:C7B2:2EE0|talk]]) 05:04, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> *******{{Ping|Mandruss}} I was hoping for an explanation of why we should disregard all of those sources and not list it as an Islamist terrorist attack. Wikipedia isn't about voting, its about consensus, and I'm trying to understand what it is that you disagree with here. MrX's original objection was simply that there weren't sources which said that this was an Islamist terrorist attack, but it is clear that there are tons of such sources, so I was wondering if there was some other objection. If there isn't, there's not much of a point to any of this. The only other argument I'm seeing is people speculating that he was gay, but we don't know that he was, and in any case, there's nothing that prevents an Islamist from being gay. There have been many instances of conservatives who were very strongly opposed to homosexuality due to their religious beliefs themselves being homosexual, so it isn't really a counter-argument - doubly so given that the shooter told the police themselves that they were acting on behalf of ISIS (whether ISIS knew about it or not). [[user:Titanium Dragon|&lt;span style=&quot;background-color:{{ trim | silver }}; color:{{ trim | }};&quot;&gt;{{ trim | '''Titanium Dragon''' }}&lt;/span&gt;]] ([[user talk:Titanium Dragon|talk]]) 05:35, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> ********It's a wonder that there's a RfC at all. There's far more attacks that have vauger connections to Islam than the Orlando shooting, so why is THIS PARTICULAR event so contested here on Wikipedia? And what does it say about Wikipedia in general if things like this continue to happen despite clear evidence that it isn't necessary? [[User:Sethyre|Sethyre]] ([[User talk:Sethyre|talk]]) 05:41, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> *********I don't believe that this particularly says anything about Wikipedia in general, beyond possibly a few tendentious editors - I mean, let's be clear here, the series of events were extremely muddled and conflicting information tossed all about originally and the very points against the Orlando's inclusion as an Islamic attack were well applied at that point. It is however fair (and safe) at this point to say this has changed. All the more recent information (news articles/FBI/talking heads) have given full and due weight to the information that yes; indeed - this attack was a demonstration of Islamic fundamentalism. The editors who have up to this point protected this article (and it's inclusion to this list) in the meantime have done well by doing so, and deserve every chance to review all the new articles and sources (posted here and any in an edit request below) and see the well given preponderance of statements towards real, supported information - and the dismissal of several fallacies formerly involved too. Now, if people choose to keep ignoring all of this then perhaps it would be time to wail about the stubborn mules and the Wikipedia stables - but the time hasn't precisely come yet, and always assume in good faith that people can come around. [[Special:Contributions/69.114.53.16|69.114.53.16]] ([[User talk:69.114.53.16|talk]]) 06:06, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> ********The arguments against inclusion are more than &quot;there weren't sources which said that this was an Islamist terrorist attack&quot;. They have been stated multiple times by multiple editors with multiple ways of saying them, and often with others apparently failing to hear them or hearing them inaccurately and/or simplistically. I'm sorry but it seems both impractical and a waste of time to try to fully articulate them here, again. They are there for you to read, or maybe someone else would care to take a stab at a full and complete re-statement of them. Update: On second thought, I doubt any one editor could fully and accurately summarize &lt;u&gt;all&lt;/u&gt; of the nay arguments. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#AAA;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 05:53, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> * The [[2015 Leytonstone tube station attack]] was another of those attacks that people raced to include in this list, for many of the same reasons people want to include Orlando. The Leytonstone attacker shouted Islamic phrases, so it '''''must''''' have been an Islamist attack, right?! Oh, no, wait now... Nope. Mentally ill man. We'll never know for definite now whether Mateen was mentally ill or not, but being the U.S., he had access to much more significant weaponry. Certainly, from people who ''knew'' him (as opposed to FBI examinations of his phone), he apparently appeared to be [[Omar_Mateen#Personal_life|mentally unstable]] and his sexual orientation was [[Omar_Mateen#Sexual_orientation|open to question]]. Sorry if that doesn't fit in to some black and white Breitbart classification. [[User:Bastun|&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Verdana, sans-serif&quot;&gt;Bastun&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Bastun|Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!]]&lt;/sup&gt; 16:45, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> :But mental illness doesn't preclude an attack for any type of classification. Neither does sexual orientation. Is the list called &quot;List of attacks by Heterosexual, Mentally Stable Islamists&quot;? No. I'm not a doctor, but I would guess that Omar Mateen, Dylan Roof, the Leytonstone attacker, and Ted Kaczynski were all mentally unstable. But these attackers all chose to intentionally identify with a polical ideology and associate their attacks with some ideology. If Omar Mateen supports ISIS because ISIS gives him publicity, which he craves for psychopathological reasons (this is plausible, but also very speculative), that does not make him less of a supporter of ISIS. Consider a hypothetical fighter who has joined ISIS to gain money or slaves as spoils of war but has little interest in religion. Would that man not be a &quot;real&quot; supporter of ISIS? I think many of you who support removing this attack from the list are talking past us. The issue isn't that Mateen might have been gay, or might have been crazy, and that we Breitbart drones fail to recognize that. The issue is that we cannot understand how any of those complicating factor make Mateen ''not'' an ISIS supporter. Should we have a separate list for terrorist attacks made by ISIS supporters, that support the religous and political aims of ISIS (killing of gays and Americans), yet potentially had other motives? Well guess what- that would include every single attack on this list, including those ''actually directed by ISIS and Al-Qida''. Should we remove 9/11 from this list? Maybe one or more of the hijackers went through a rough divorce, flunked out of school, had a brain tumor, etc, etc, etc. Who cares? This is honestly getting absurd. [[User:Brianbleakley|Brianbleakley]] ([[User talk:Brianbleakley|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Brianbleakley|contrib]])) 17:45, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Recent evidence from the FBI about Orlando ==<br /> <br /> <br /> From yesterday's article titled &quot;FBI investigators say they have found no evidence that Orlando shooter had gay lovers&quot; found here: http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-orlando-gay-fbi-20160623-snap-story.html<br /> <br /> &quot;He claimed the shooting was carried out in allegiance to the militant group Islamic State, as a message to halt U.S. bombing in Iraq and Syria. Several Pulse regulars have come forward in the days since the shooting, claiming to have seen Mateen at the club or to have been contacted by him on the gay dating apps Grindr, Jack’d and Adam4Adam. On Tuesday, Univision aired a report in which “Miguel,” a man wearing a disguise to conceal his identity, alleged he had sex with Mateen after meeting him on the gay dating app, Grindr. He said Mateen &gt;had sex with other men too, including a threesome with a Puerto Rican who allegedly told Mateen, after having had unprotected sex with him, that he was HIV positive. But investigators do not consider the man’s account credible, according to one senior law enforcement official with access to the investigation.&quot;<br /> <br /> In light of this information, it seems that indeed Orlando was motivated by extremism. &lt;small class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—&amp;nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/73.233.156.49|73.233.156.49]] ([[User talk:73.233.156.49|talk]]) 14:06, 24 June 2016 (UTC)&lt;/small&gt;&lt;!-- Template:Unsigned IP --&gt; &lt;!--Autosigned by SineBot--&gt;<br /> :No, that would be a [[false binary]]. Let's let the FBI finish doing their job.- [[user: MrX|Mr]][[user talk:MrX|X]] 21:56, 24 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::Did you miss the first sentence of the quote about Mateen? &quot;He claimed the shooting was carried out in allegiance to the militant group Islamic State, as a message to halt U.S. bombing in Iraq and Syria.&quot; This wasn't a &quot;process of elimination&quot; conclusion that it was extremism, this is actually what Mateen's affirmative motivation was as reported by the investigators. &lt;small class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—&amp;nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/73.233.156.49|73.233.156.49]] ([[User talk:73.233.156.49|talk]]) 14:44, 25 June 2016 (UTC)&lt;/small&gt;&lt;!-- Template:Unsigned IP --&gt; &lt;!--Autosigned by SineBot--&gt;<br /> :::Maybe I misunderstood how you were reaching your conclusion, in which case mentioning the gay angle is not really relevant. Whether Mateen's own pledge of allegiance to ISIL is sufficient for characterizing the shooting as an Islamist terrorist attack is at the center of the editorial dispute (above). Obviously opinions vary. - [[user: MrX|Mr]][[user talk:MrX|X]] 18:11, 25 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::Mateen's only claim is Islamist extremism. ISIL or Hezbollah or Chechen or Taliban matters not in a self-radicalized Islamist terror attack against Western policy. It is sufficient that he attacked unarmed persons because he disagreed with the policy that killed Muslims. That is not an uncommon motive and the flavor of Islam is not relevant. We have a lot more evidence of his Islamist terror motive than any anti-LGBT motive. --[[User:DHeyward|DHeyward]] ([[User talk:DHeyward|talk]]) 00:09, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> Why is the self gay hatred narrative still being peddled around, when it is significantly less plausible than any other factor being brought up? [[User:R00b07|R00b07]] ([[User talk:R00b07|talk]]) 00:44, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> A muslim man shot up a nightclub under the pretense of Radical Islam. ISIL later took credit for it. Who cares if it was carried out on ISIL's instruction or not? ISIL has sent messages to Extremists in the US and other western countries to continue carrying out LONE WOLF attacks. ISIL can't personally endorse each and every attempted bombing. They only take credit once the deed is done. The Orlando shooting was one of these encouraged lone wolf attacks, and while ISIL didn't plan it, they certainly took credit. Stop this PC nonsense. You are disrespecting the deceased victims names if you call this anything other than what it really is: Islamic Terror. &lt;!-- Template:Unsigned --&gt;&lt;small&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—&amp;nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Battlefront228|Battlefront228]] ([[User talk:Battlefront228|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Battlefront228|contribs]]) 19:34, 1 July 2016 (UTC)&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/small&gt; &lt;!--Autosigned by SineBot--&gt;<br /> <br /> == Semi-protected edit request on 26 June 2016 ==<br /> <br /> {{edit semi-protected|List of Islamist terrorist attacks|answered=yes}}<br /> &lt;!-- State UNAMBIGUOUSLY your suggested changes. Other editors need to know what to add or remove. Blank edit requests will be declined. --&gt;<br /> <br /> <br /> To be added near the bottom of the 2016 list of terrorist attacks in chronological order...<br /> <br /> *Florida June 12, 2016 - Omar Mateen, pledging allegiance to ISIS, attacked the Pulse gay nightclub in Orlando, Fl, killing 49 and wounding 53 others before he himself was killed in a shootout with police. url=http://www.cnn.com/2016/06/12/us/orlando-nightclub-shooting/<br /> <br /> <br /> &lt;!-- Write your request ABOVE this line and do not remove the tildes below. --&gt;<br /> [[User:Ghostvet|Ghostvet]] ([[User talk:Ghostvet|talk]]) 22:02, 26 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :{{not done}} - See [[#RfC: Should the Orlando shooting be included in this list?]]. - [[user: MrX|Mr]][[user talk:MrX|X]] 22:06, 26 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Semi-protected edit request on 29 June 2016 ==<br /> <br /> {{edit semi-protected|List of Islamist terrorist attacks|answered=yes}}<br /> &lt;!-- State UNAMBIGUOUSLY your suggested changes. Other editors need to know what to add or remove. Blank edit requests will be declined. --&gt;<br /> <br /> <br /> I noticed that the Orlando attack is missing from the list of Islamic terrorist attacks. I know there have been a lot of Internet memes trying to claim that it wasn’t Islamic, but homophobia for example. I submit for your consideration that it can be both.<br /> First, there are multiple sources that consider the Orlando attacks to be both Islamic and Terrorist. It actually parallels the Fort Hood and San Bernardino attacks, where a self-radicalized attacker was inspired by radical Islamic ideology he learned on the Internet. He then selected a target he knew and attacked.<br /> As far as the definition for what a “reliable source” is, how do you handle that with things that are so political? The New York Times editorial page is certainly not an unbiased source. If their editorial page is disqualified, would you disqualify the editorial page of the Wall Street Journal as well? The AP Stylebook is influenced by politics and you will see certain English-language sources avoid words, whether because the stylebook states a preferred way or their own individual bias. (For more on this, see the AP Stylebook regarding the change from using the term illegal immigrants to undocumented workers to describe those who are unlawfully present in the U.S.<br /> Cite: &lt;ref&gt;https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/wp/2013/04/02/ap-drops-illegal-immigrant-from-stylebook/&lt;/ref&gt;<br /> <br /> I would argue that your definition should not be solely whether a single news article includes the words “terrorism” and “Islamic.” Rather, you should take into consideration whether or not the attacker claimed his motivation was Islam and whether a known Islamic terrorist organization congratulates, endorses, or claims responsibility for an attack. (For example, the Irish Republican Army has not claimed credit for any of the attacks on the Islamic terror attack list, even though the organization blew up some buildings and engaged in terrorist activity in the past.)<br /> Orlando Attack Sources:<br /> &lt;ref&gt;http://fpif.org/orlando-future-terrorism/&lt;/ref&gt;<br /> &lt;ref&gt;https://www.stratfor.com/geopolitical-diary/searching-right-answer-islamic-state&lt;/ref&gt;<br /> &lt;ref&gt;http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2016/06/12/orlando-nightclub-shooting/&lt;/ref&gt;<br /> <br /> For those that argue the Orlando attack was just a hate crime because of homophobia, consider that homosexual behavior still qualifies for the death penalty in many Islamic countries, and in Daesh-controlled areas. Islam itself recommends violence against homosexuals:<br /> &lt;ref&gt;https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2016/06/13/here-are-the-10-countries-where-homosexuality-may-be-punished-by-death-2/&lt;/ref&gt;<br /> &lt;ref&gt;http://www.latimes.com/world/middleeast/la-fg-islamic-state-anti-gay-violence-20160613-snap-story.html&lt;/ref&gt;<br /> &lt;ref&gt;http://www.cbsnews.com/news/isis-orlando-shooting-gays-execution-torture-ramadan/&lt;/ref&gt;<br /> &lt;ref&gt;http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/nation/imams-line-up-to-condemn-homosexuality/news-story/b1df7829507ae0a60875a5577bd21a43&lt;/ref&gt;<br /> <br /> Here are some sources for terrorist attacks not currently listed:<br /> &lt;ref&gt;http://www.aol.com/article/2016/06/25/somali-islamist-militants-attack-hotel-in-mogadishu/21403805/&lt;/ref&gt;<br /> &lt;ref&gt;http://www.haaretz.com/world-news/1.603331&lt;/ref&gt;<br /> &lt;ref&gt;http://www.haaretz.com/world-news/1.599021&lt;/ref&gt;<br /> &lt;ref&gt;http://www.capitalfm.co.ke/news/2014/06/48-dead-so-far-in-mpeketoni-terror-attack/&lt;/ref&gt;<br /> &lt;ref&gt;http://www.reuters.com/article/us-yemen-security-idUSKCN0ZD292&lt;/ref&gt;<br /> &lt;ref&gt;http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/syria-isis-suicide-bomb-shrine-june11-1.3630987&lt;/ref&gt;<br /> &lt;ref&gt;http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3664267/Lebanese-Christian-women-armed-machine-guns-patrol-border-village-ISIS-suspects-launch-suicide-attacks-prompting-authorities-round-103-illegal-Syrian-migrants.html&lt;/ref&gt;<br /> {{reflist-talk}}<br /> <br /> &lt;!-- Write your request ABOVE this line and do not remove the tildes below. --&gt;<br /> [[User:DeanSoCal|DeanSoCal]] ([[User talk:DeanSoCal|talk]]) 05:45, 29 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :[[File:Red information icon with gradient background.svg|20px|link=]] '''Not done:'''&lt;!-- Template:ESp --&gt; On going rfc on this very talk page regarding this issue [[User:EvergreenFir|'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:#8b00ff;&quot;&gt;Eve&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#6528c2;&quot;&gt;rgr&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#3f5184;&quot;&gt;een&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#197947;&quot;&gt;Fir&lt;/span&gt;''']] [[User talk:EvergreenFir|(talk)]] &lt;small&gt;Please &amp;#123;&amp;#123;[[Template:re|re]]&amp;#125;&amp;#125;&lt;/small&gt; 06:11, 29 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::https://www.fbi.gov/tampa/press-releases/2016/investigative-update-regarding-pulse-nightclub-shooting Done, comment given, from the shooter himself. From the FBI press release, have fun saying this guy wasn't doing it as an islamic terror attack after reading it. anyone waiting for an RFC after reading that is pushing an agenda, period. [[Special:Contributions/65.29.77.61|65.29.77.61]] ([[User talk:65.29.77.61|talk]]) 18:01, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::Do not pretend to know the motives of other editors. [[User:EvergreenFir|'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:#8b00ff;&quot;&gt;Eve&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#6528c2;&quot;&gt;rgr&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#3f5184;&quot;&gt;een&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#197947;&quot;&gt;Fir&lt;/span&gt;''']] [[User talk:EvergreenFir|(talk)]] &lt;small&gt;Please &amp;#123;&amp;#123;[[Template:re|re]]&amp;#125;&amp;#125;&lt;/small&gt; 19:03, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::::I would agree with your statement on the IP above not pretending to know the motivations of other editors, but I also find it amazingly hypocritical how these same other editors are pretending to know about the motivations of the Orlando shooter, regardless of the all the facts and statements from the FBI and reporting from RS that disagree with their assumption. I don't normally comment on Wikipedia so please correct me if I'm wrong; but every single argument in that RfC purporting that Orlando was NOT a terrorist attack is based entirely on OR and unsubstantiated rumors directly contradicted by the primary authorities and recent RS that have reported on the matter. [[Special:Contributions/69.114.53.16|69.114.53.16]] ([[User talk:69.114.53.16|talk]]) 19:26, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::: I'm not pretending, it's pretty obvious. Every single fact tells them they're wrong. They have transcripts, they have recordings in the shooters own voice, yet somehow they just buried their head in the sand? Malice or ignorance, pick one. It can't be ignorance because I know they can left click a link. [[Special:Contributions/65.29.77.61|65.29.77.61]] ([[User talk:65.29.77.61|talk]]) 03:17, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == June 28 Ataturk airport bombing ==<br /> <br /> So, should we add this bombing to the list right now, as it's current, or should we wait until we get full details? Please answer. [[User:Awesomegaming|Awesomegaming]] ([[User talk:Awesomegaming|talk]]) 23:47, 29 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :Do you have a source saying that it was an Islamist terrorist attack?- [[user: MrX|Mr]][[user talk:MrX|X]] 00:25, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :No. We must wait for full details. [[User:Brianbleakley|Brianbleakley]] ([[User talk:Brianbleakley|talk]]) 17:24, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :We need to be politically correct as much as possible so we shouldn't include it. Even if the rest of the world is reporting it to be such. [[User:Sir Joseph|Sir Joseph]] &lt;sup&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;Green&quot;&gt;[[User_talk:Sir Joseph|(talk)]]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/sup&gt; 17:32, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :Would [http://www.cnn.com/2016/06/30/europe/turkey-istanbul-ataturk-airport-attack/ this article] be considered a valid source? The article itself has only anonymous sources, and is thus hearsay. On the other hand, it is hearsay from a 'reputable' source. It is quite likely that the link to ISIS is real- I'm not disputing that. I'm just curious about the standard of sourcing required for this sort of thing. [[User:Brianbleakley|Brianbleakley]] ([[User talk:Brianbleakley|talk]]) 17:54, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :Actually, there does seem to be an [http://www.cbsnews.com/news/istanbul-airport-attack-signs-point-to-isis/ official statement] &quot;The findings of our security forces point at the Daesh organization as the perpetrators of this terror attack,&quot; Yildirim said, using the Arabic name for ISIS. &quot;Even though the indications suggest Daesh, our investigations are continuing.&quot; [[User:Brianbleakley|Brianbleakley]] ([[User talk:Brianbleakley|talk]]) 18:01, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> <br /> Anyone who wants to point to any other motivation on the Ataturk bombings, other than Islamic Terror, feel free. [[User:R00b07|R00b07]] ([[User talk:R00b07|talk]]) 23:59, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Disruptive editing in the middle of an RfC ==<br /> <br /> Twice, editors have restored the Orlando shooting to this list, in spite of consensus to do so in the '''[[#RfC: Should the Orlando shooting be included in this list?|ongong RfC]]'''. Not only is this [[WP:DISRUPT|disruptive]], it's out of process as detailed at [[WP:RFC#Suggestions for responding]], which says<br /> :&quot;Edits to content under RfC discussion may be particularly controversial. Avoid making edits that others may view as unhelpful. Editing after others have raised objections may be viewed as disruptive editing or edit warring. Be patient; make your improvements in accord with consensus after the RFC is resolved.&quot;<br /> The RfC needs to be allowed to run its course, and consensus weighed by an admin, before this material is reintroduced.- [[user: MrX|Mr]][[user talk:MrX|X]] 15:33, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :Did you remove the attack from the list? If so, it should be reinstated immediately and the RfC should be completed to decide if it should be removed. Not the other way around. Why didn't you start a talk section about it instead of removing it immediately? [[User:Iksnyrk|Iksnyrk]] ([[User talk:Iksnyrk|talk]]) 20:11, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :There is no controversy. It was a self proclaimed islamic terrorist event. It's actually one of the very that can be completely verified as knowing what the motivation was.&lt;!-- Template:Unsigned --&gt;&lt;small&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—&amp;nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:97.91.188.153|97.91.188.153]] ([[User talk:97.91.188.153|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/97.91.188.153|contribs]]) 17:43, 30 June 2016 (UTC)&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/small&gt;<br /> ::The alternative explanation is that Omar Mateen was a crank/fantasist/mentally ill who proclaimed an Islamic motive after reading a few websites. As others have pointed out, if Mateen had claimed to be Napoleon, the Orlando shooting would not be described as the work of the French Empire. Motive is for the investigators to determine. It's also worrying that this is being hyped up on Breitbart, which is disrupting the normal editing process.--'''''[[User:ianmacm|&lt;span style=&quot;background:#88b;color:#cff;font-variant:small-caps&quot;&gt;♦Ian&lt;span style=&quot;background:#99c&quot;&gt;Ma&lt;span style=&quot;background:#aad&quot;&gt;c&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;M♦&lt;/span&gt;]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:ianmacm|(talk to me)]]&lt;/sup&gt;''''' 17:57, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::But, he didn't, Blanch. Stop propagandizing. &lt;!-- Template:Unsigned IP --&gt;&lt;small class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—&amp;nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/206.190.75.9|206.190.75.9]] ([[User talk:206.190.75.9|talk]]) 19:07, 30 June 2016 (UTC)&lt;/small&gt; &lt;!--Autosigned by SineBot--&gt;<br /> :::Well, if he claimed he were Napoleon and then France took credit for it we'd probably describe it as the work of France, don't you think? ISIL, an Islamic terrorist group, claims responsibility, do they not?--[[Special:Contributions/2607:EA00:107:2401:A13E:8174:2794:B667|2607:EA00:107:2401:A13E:8174:2794:B667]] ([[User talk:2607:EA00:107:2401:A13E:8174:2794:B667|talk]]) 20:23, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::The [[Charleston church shooting]] is currently in the category ''White supremacy in the United States'' despite the perpetrator having had no formal links to white supremacist groups. The motive was determined via consulting his manifesto and circumstantial evidence about which websites he had visited. The article itself features statements that cast doubt over the white supremacist element of the attack -- ''&quot;I don't think the church was his primary target because he told us he was going for the school. But I think he couldn't get into the school because of the security ... so I think he just settled for the church.&quot;'' Mateen's manifesto was transmitted via phone calls and the transcript features numerous mentions of Islamism and ideas frequently expressed by groups that are clearly Islamist. If we're going to cast aspersions over one manifesto, then it would only seem unbiased to call the motive on the other attack suspect, too. In fact, this would require every manifesto to be treated, as you say, like a product of mental illness of no relevance to the motive for the attack. --[[User:Toomanyaccountsargh|Toomanyaccountsargh]] ([[User talk:Toomanyaccountsargh|talk]]) 19:11, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::We are NOT going to have another content discussion about this here, pointlessly redundant with the open RfC. This is a thread about process, which is independent of any content questions. The listing is disputed and, as such, should stay out until consensus is reached to include it. Per [[WP:ONUS]], ''&quot;The onus to achieve consensus for inclusion is on those seeking to include disputed content.&quot;'' &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#AAA;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 21:18, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Semi-protected edit request on 30 June 2016 ==<br /> <br /> {{edit semi-protected|List of Islamist terrorist attacks|answered=yes}}<br /> &lt;!-- State UNAMBIGUOUSLY your suggested changes. Other editors need to know what to add or remove. Blank edit requests will be declined. --&gt;<br /> <br /> I would like to rightfully restore the Orlando and Turkey terror attacks to the list as they have been clearly demarcated as acts of Islamic terror.<br /> <br /> &lt;!-- Write your request ABOVE this line and do not remove the tildes below. --&gt;<br /> [[User:Jrcoyne99|Jrcoyne99]] ([[User talk:Jrcoyne99|talk]]) 19:39, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :You may wish to participate in the above RfC. [[User:BethNaught|BethNaught]] ([[User talk:BethNaught|talk]]) 19:41, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> <br /> wankers arguing semantics. it's a duck. call it a duck. I mean that literally. Add the Orlando Nightclub attack to the page &quot;list of ducks&quot;<br /> <br /> :{{not done}} - You may wish to participate in the above RfC. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#AAA;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 21:24, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Protected edit request on 30 June 2016 a ==<br /> <br /> {{edit fully-protected|List of Islamist terrorist attacks|answered=yes}}<br /> &lt;!-- State UNAMBIGUOUSLY your suggested changes. Other editors need to know what to add or remove. Blank edit requests will be declined. --&gt;<br /> Where is the list of Orlando and other attacks against US ? <br /> <br /> &lt;!-- Write your request ABOVE this line and do not remove the tildes below. --&gt;<br /> [[Special:Contributions/92.26.52.164|92.26.52.164]] ([[User talk:92.26.52.164|talk]]) 09:26, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :Please refer to [[Wikipedia:Edit requests]] for how to submit an edit request (they are not for asking a question). As for Orlando, there is an open RfC about that above. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#AAA;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 09:31, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Protected edit request on 30 June 2016 b==<br /> <br /> {{edit fully-protected|List of Islamist terrorist attacks|answered=yes}}<br /> &lt;!-- State UNAMBIGUOUSLY your suggested changes. Other editors need to know what to add or remove. Blank edit requests will be declined. --&gt;<br /> <br /> Two recent attacks appear to be missing:<br /> <br /> 12 June 2016 Orlando Nightclub Shooting.<br /> <br /> 28 June 2016 Istanbul Airport Attack.<br /> <br /> I'm happy to generate summary lines similar to others in the attack list. Thanks!<br /> <br /> &lt;!-- Write your request ABOVE this line and do not remove the tildes below. --&gt;<br /> [[User:Snowman1776|Snowman1776]] ([[User talk:Snowman1776|talk]]) 16:50, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> :{{Not done}} - Please read the rest of this page.- [[user: MrX|Mr]][[user talk:MrX|X]] 16:54, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> :: Too involved. Don't close requests. --[[User:DHeyward|DHeyward]] ([[User talk:DHeyward|talk]]) 17:22, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::The more I see of this page, the more it seems that the &quot;List of... &quot; format is a disaster waiting to happen. The motive for some of the attacks is not as easy to pin down as the mainstream media or armchair experts on Islamic radicalism seem to think. As I've also said, there is a risk of a [[false dilemma]] when an attack may have had a range of different motives.--'''''[[User:ianmacm|&lt;span style=&quot;background:#88b;color:#cff;font-variant:small-caps&quot;&gt;♦Ian&lt;span style=&quot;background:#99c&quot;&gt;Ma&lt;span style=&quot;background:#aad&quot;&gt;c&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;M♦&lt;/span&gt;]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:ianmacm|(talk to me)]]&lt;/sup&gt;''''' 17:27, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::: The page is fully protected due to a content dispute largely brought on by a breitbart article. The request is asking to continue that dispute. There's no reason an involved person cannot answer. Heck, no sources were provided either. [[User:EvergreenFir|'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:#8b00ff;&quot;&gt;Eve&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#6528c2;&quot;&gt;rgr&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#3f5184;&quot;&gt;een&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#197947;&quot;&gt;Fir&lt;/span&gt;''']] [[User talk:EvergreenFir|(talk)]] &lt;small&gt;Please &amp;#123;&amp;#123;[[Template:re|re]]&amp;#125;&amp;#125;&lt;/small&gt; 17:38, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::: {{re|ianmacm}} Perhaps but another problem is the difference between &quot;the&quot; motive and &quot;a&quot; motive. No one seems to doubt that this was violence against LGBT people but there is much less evidence of that connection. Nevertheless, both islamic terrorism and anti-LGBT can be a motive and we are not limited to a single list. Islamic terrorists execute gay people routinely so the lists can intersect. Why ignore all the sources that say it was Islamist terrorism? The Boston bombing was at least as complicated. --[[User:DHeyward|DHeyward]] ([[User talk:DHeyward|talk]]) 17:47, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::::The regular Wikipedia editors are agreed that mass shootings, bombings etc may have various motives. This page has degenerated into a mess because it sees things in black and white rather than shades of grey. As for the [[2016 Istanbul Atatürk Airport attack]], the Turkish government has blamed ISIL but there is as ever scope for debate.--'''''[[User:ianmacm|&lt;span style=&quot;background:#88b;color:#cff;font-variant:small-caps&quot;&gt;♦Ian&lt;span style=&quot;background:#99c&quot;&gt;Ma&lt;span style=&quot;background:#aad&quot;&gt;c&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;M♦&lt;/span&gt;]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:ianmacm|(talk to me)]]&lt;/sup&gt;''''' 17:58, 1 July 2016 (UTC) <br /> :::Anyone can close requests. Your demand is declined.- [[user: MrX|Mr]][[user talk:MrX|X]] 17:51, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> :Ongoing RFC above. Please join there. [[User:EvergreenFir|'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:#8b00ff;&quot;&gt;Eve&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#6528c2;&quot;&gt;rgr&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#3f5184;&quot;&gt;een&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#197947;&quot;&gt;Fir&lt;/span&gt;''']] [[User talk:EvergreenFir|(talk)]] &lt;small&gt;Please &amp;#123;&amp;#123;[[Template:re|re]]&amp;#125;&amp;#125;&lt;/small&gt; 17:35, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::The RfC only concerns Orlando. Can we get some views on Turkey? -- [[user:zzuuzz|zzuuzz]] &lt;sup&gt;[[user_talk:zzuuzz|(talk)]]&lt;/sup&gt; 17:40, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::: Currently discussed at [[#June 28 Ataturk airport bombing]] [[User:EvergreenFir|'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:#8b00ff;&quot;&gt;Eve&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#6528c2;&quot;&gt;rgr&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#3f5184;&quot;&gt;een&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#197947;&quot;&gt;Fir&lt;/span&gt;''']] [[User talk:EvergreenFir|(talk)]] &lt;small&gt;Please &amp;#123;&amp;#123;[[Template:re|re]]&amp;#125;&amp;#125;&lt;/small&gt; 17:45, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::I'm pretty much through with the RfC about Orlando because it has been [[WP:MEAT|meatpuppeted]] by Breitbart. The main concern now is whether this page has a viable format due to the difficulty in extracting a [[Boolean algebra|Boolean]] yes/no answer for the motive.--'''''[[User:ianmacm|&lt;span style=&quot;background:#88b;color:#cff;font-variant:small-caps&quot;&gt;♦Ian&lt;span style=&quot;background:#99c&quot;&gt;Ma&lt;span style=&quot;background:#aad&quot;&gt;c&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;M♦&lt;/span&gt;]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:ianmacm|(talk to me)]]&lt;/sup&gt;''''' 17:42, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::I disagree. I think the RFC is still valid. It doesn't matter how people noticed this issue. The RFC header itself advises that if you came here as a result of a message off wiki, please adhere to our guidelines. It goes on to say &quot;However, you are invited to participate and your opinion is welcome.&quot; If the users you claim were brought here as a result of reading a Breitbart article, then their opinions are as valid as yours, provided they adhere to our guidelines. If you believe the result should not be valid, please seek consensus to change the RFC process. That it is not going the way you wish is not a reason to try to derail the result. [[User:Mr Ernie|Mr Ernie]] ([[User talk:Mr Ernie|talk]]) 19:12, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == WikiProject Conservatism? ==<br /> <br /> Obviously this page should belong to WikiProject Islam and WikiProject Terrorism, but I think that including it in WikiProject Conservatism could be considered a form of canvassing. I'm firmly on the Breitbart side of the Orlando Nightclub Shooting debacle, but I think in general the association of this list with a political philosophy is a negative thing. There is no fundamental philosophical connection between political conservatism and Islam, political conservatives simply tend to have similar views on the issue. I have no problem with political conservatives who want to ensure that Islamic/ist terrorism is handled honestly on Wikipedia joining WP Islam or WP Terrorism, in fact that would be an excellent idea. But this list is no more related to conservatism than liberalism, and drawing a host of ideological people to this talk page to battle one another is not a good thing. [[User:Brianbleakley|Brianbleakley]] ([[User talk:Brianbleakley|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Brianbleakley|contribs]]) 19:35, 1 July 2016 (UTC)</div> Battlefront228 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:List_of_Islamist_terrorist_attacks&diff=727871527 Talk:List of Islamist terrorist attacks 2016-07-01T19:34:47Z <p>Battlefront228: /* Recent evidence from the FBI about Orlando */</p> <hr /> <div>{{Old AfD multi| date = 3 April 2014 (UTC) | result = '''keep''' | page = List of Islamic terrorist attacks }} <br /> {{WikiProjectBannerShell|1=<br /> {{WikiProject Terrorism|class=List|importance=Top}}<br /> {{WikiProject Islam|Islam and Controversy=yes|class=List|importance=High}}<br /> {{WikiProject Politics|class=List|importance=High}}<br /> {{WikiProject Conservatism|class=List|importance=Mid}}<br /> }}<br /> {{press | author=Lucas, Nolan|date=June 30, 2016|url=http://www.breitbart.com/tech/2016/06/30/wikipedia-removes-orlando-shooting-islamist-terror-attack-list/?utm_source=facebook&amp;utm_medium=social |title=Wikipedia Removes Orlando Shooting From ‘Islamist Terror Attack’ List|org=''[[Breitbart]]''}}<br /> {{User:MiszaBot/config<br /> |archiveheader = {{talk archive navigation}}<br /> |maxarchivesize = 100K<br /> |counter = 3<br /> |minthreadsleft = 2<br /> |minthreadstoarchive = 1<br /> |algo = old(90d)<br /> |archive = Talk:List of Islamist terrorist attacks/Archive %(counter)d<br /> }}<br /> {{User:HBC Archive Indexerbot/OptIn |target=/Archive index |mask=/Archive &lt;#&gt; |leading_zeros=0 |indexhere=yes}}<br /> {{Archive box|auto=yes|search=yes | bot = Lowercase sigmabot III | age = 90 |index=/Archive index}}<br /> <br /> ==Attacks in Israel==<br /> I realize there have been an enormous debate about what to label as &quot;islamic terrorism&quot;, I would just like to point out to the fact that there is an abnormally large amount of attacks listed in Israel that have been considered as religiously motivated rather than politically. Has anyone checked to see if the claim is supported by reliable sources? [[User:Makeandtoss|Makeandtoss]] ([[User talk:Makeandtoss|talk]]) 14:37, 4 April 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Switching to boxes ==<br /> <br /> Currently working on the attacks from 2002-2009, so if you were about to work on them, don't waste your time. I should be done very soon. [[User:Ralphw|Ralphw]] ([[User talk:Ralphw|talk]]) 00:52, 3 May 2016 (UTC)<br /> :I just finished the 2002 one, I'm going to try and finish the next years during the next week or so. [[User:Ralphw|Ralphw]] ([[User talk:Ralphw|talk]]) 03:17, 3 May 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::What's the status of this? [[User:Natureium|Natureium]] ([[User talk:Natureium|talk]]) 18:27, 29 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ==Flags==<br /> Why exactly have the flags that were here until the 1st of May 2016 been removed and replaced with country names alone? [[Special:Contributions/119.224.86.235|119.224.86.235]] ([[User talk:119.224.86.235|talk]]) 01:23, 13 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :My guess is [[WP:FLAGCRUFT]]. But not sure. We really don't need flags generally. [[User:EvergreenFir|'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:#8b00ff;&quot;&gt;Eve&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#6528c2;&quot;&gt;rgr&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#3f5184;&quot;&gt;een&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#197947;&quot;&gt;Fir&lt;/span&gt;''']] [[User talk:EvergreenFir|(talk)]] &lt;small&gt;Please &amp;#123;&amp;#123;[[Template:re|re]]&amp;#125;&amp;#125;&lt;/small&gt; 01:43, 13 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::As I wrote in my [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_Islamist_terrorist_attacks&amp;diff=718020549&amp;oldid=718018377 edit summary] when I removed them, [[WP:WORDPRECEDENT|Words as the primary means of communication]]/[[WP:EGG]], [[MOS:FLAG]], and [[Talk:List of Islamist terrorist attacks/Archive 3#RFc for major restructuring]], where the closer noted &quot;strong support for no flags&quot;. —&amp;nbsp;[[User:Malik Shabazz|Malik Shabazz]]&amp;nbsp;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Malik Shabazz|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt;/&lt;sub&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Malik Shabazz|Stalk]]&lt;/sub&gt; 02:34, 13 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::: IMO, the flags were helpful to quickly see which country the attack happened in, but if it's against the wiki rules, I'm not even going to argue. [[User:R00b07|R00b07]] ([[User talk:R00b07|talk]]) 02:02, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == 'Splain, Lucy. ==<br /> <br /> {{ping|Malik Shabazz}} [[Christian terrorism]]. No one had to invent a new word—Christist, Christianist, ''papist'' (gasp! the offensiveness!), whatever—to describe ''that'', and that's considered perfectly NPOV. Why would &quot;Islamic&quot; be any different, especially given that the main article is [[Islamic terrorism]]? '''''[[User:Jujutsuan|&lt;font color=&quot;green&quot;&gt;Jujutsuan&lt;/font&gt;]]''''' (&lt;small&gt;Please notify with &amp;#123;&amp;#123;[[Template:re|re]]&amp;#125;&amp;#125;&lt;/small&gt; &amp;#124; [[User talk:Jujutsuan|talk]] &amp;#x7C; [[Special:Contributions/Jujutsuan|contribs]]) 03:02, 13 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :if you don't understand the difference between Islamic and Islamist, [[wiktionary]] is that way. —&amp;nbsp;[[User:Malik Shabazz|Malik Shabazz]]&amp;nbsp;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Malik Shabazz|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt;/&lt;sub&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Malik Shabazz|Stalk]]&lt;/sub&gt; 03:09, 13 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::Ever heard of [[WP:CIVIL]]? You started with the attitude in your snarky edit summary. I know the difference. But a Muslim committing an act of terrorism ''in the name of Islam'' is, by definition, [[Islamic terrorism]]. Islamism is a relgio-political ideology, and one source, but not the only source, of [[Islamic terrorism]]. And the main page is called [[Islamic terrorism]]. Have I mentioned that the main page is called [[Islamic terrorism|IslamIC terrorism]]?? '''''[[User:Jujutsuan|&lt;font color=&quot;green&quot;&gt;Jujutsuan&lt;/font&gt;]]''''' (&lt;small&gt;Please notify with &amp;#123;&amp;#123;[[Template:re|re]]&amp;#125;&amp;#125;&lt;/small&gt; &amp;#124; [[User talk:Jujutsuan|talk]] &amp;#x7C; [[Special:Contributions/Jujutsuan|contribs]]) 03:13, 13 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::Have I mentioned that I don't give a *bleep* what the morons who edit the &quot;main page&quot; choose to call it? This is a list of Islamist attacks, and has been since it was moved to this title (following a [[Talk:List of Islamist terrorist attacks/Archive 2#Requested move 26 March 2015|move discussion]]) more than a year ago. Did you think that maybe you should move the other article to match this article's title? The morons who edit that page can't agree what it's about or find a source for their made-up '''definition''' of what &quot;Islamic terrorism&quot; is. So while that article is fully protected, you come here, to an article you probably never even read before today, and move it. Nice work. And ''I'' have some &quot;'splaining&quot; to do. Nice touch. Have I mentioned that I don't give a fuck what the morons who edit the &quot;main page&quot; choose to call it? —&amp;nbsp;[[User:Malik Shabazz|Malik Shabazz]]&amp;nbsp;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Malik Shabazz|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt;/&lt;sub&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Malik Shabazz|Stalk]]&lt;/sub&gt; 03:35, 13 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::List articles don't set precedent of any degree of force. That's the privilege of main articles, which lists by default aren't. Yes, you have, about three times. How original of you. You've also mentioned that they're morons (and me too, by extension), plus vulgarities. &quot;Nice work.&quot; (See, I give attribution when I copy something.) '''''[[User:Jujutsuan|&lt;font color=&quot;green&quot;&gt;Jujutsuan&lt;/font&gt;]]''''' (&lt;small&gt;Please notify with &amp;#123;&amp;#123;[[Template:re|re]]&amp;#125;&amp;#125;&lt;/small&gt; &amp;#124; [[User talk:Jujutsuan|talk]] &amp;#x7C; [[Special:Contributions/Jujutsuan|contribs]]) 03:43, 13 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::::Malik's point about the meaning of the terms is correct, even if accompanied by incivilities. The move is contested. I agree with Malik's point; the attacks are Islamist (based in fundamentalist or radical Islam). [[User:EvergreenFir|'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:#8b00ff;&quot;&gt;Eve&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#6528c2;&quot;&gt;rgr&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#3f5184;&quot;&gt;een&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#197947;&quot;&gt;Fir&lt;/span&gt;''']] [[User talk:EvergreenFir|(talk)]] &lt;small&gt;Please &amp;#123;&amp;#123;[[Template:re|re]]&amp;#125;&amp;#125;&lt;/small&gt; 04:32, 13 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::Also agree with Malik and EvergreenFir. You're obviously around long enough to know about the requirement for agreement on contentious moves. [[User:Bastun|&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Verdana, sans-serif&quot;&gt;Bastun&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Bastun|Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!]]&lt;/sup&gt; 09:19, 13 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Orlando shooting ==<br /> <br /> I have removed the 2016 Orlando nightclub shooting from this list. It does not meet the stated inclusion criteria for the list. The fact that ISIL has, via their media agency, made such a claim does not make it true. The FBI has not made such a determination. Including this entry in this article violates a number of Wikipedia policies including [[WP:OR]] and [[WP:NPOV]].- [[user: MrX|Mr]][[user talk:MrX|X]] 20:31, 19 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :Reverted removal per [[WP:BRD]]. Let's see...<br /> :*Terror attacks... check.<br /> :*by Islamist extremists... check.<br /> :*to further a '''perceived''' Islamic religious or political cause... check.<br /> :*have occurred globally... Orlando is on earth: check.<br /> :*The attackers have used such tactics as arson, vehicle rampage attacks, bomb threats, suicide attacks, bombings, '''spree shooting''', stabbings, hijackings, kidnappings and beheadings... check.<br /> :*The following is a list of Islamist terrorist attacks that have received significant press coverage since 1980... check.<br /> :The FBI is not the only RS to consider. Plenty of RS have determined it was an Islamic terrorist attack. Deserves inclusion. '''''[[User:Jujutsuan|&lt;font color=&quot;green&quot;&gt;Jujutsuan&lt;/font&gt;]]''''' (&lt;small&gt;Please notify with &amp;#123;&amp;#123;[[Template:re|re]]&amp;#125;&amp;#125;&lt;/small&gt; &amp;#124; [[User talk:Jujutsuan|talk]] &amp;#x7C; [[Special:Contributions/Jujutsuan|contribs]]) 20:48, 19 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::*Please cite one or more reliable sources that says that the Orlando shooting was conducted by &quot;Islamic extremists&quot;.<br /> ::*Please cite one or more reliable sources that state that Mateen was trying to further an &quot;Islamic religious or political cause&quot;<br /> :::Note that ISIL's media agency is not a reliable source for anything. Note also that the media speculation is not a substitute for facts.- [[user: MrX|Mr]][[user talk:MrX|X]] 21:06, 19 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::I've had misgivings about the Orlando shooting from the beginning. A [http://www.dictionary.com/browse/local-yokel local yokel] announced that the shooter in a homophobic mass shooting had pledged allegiance to ISIL, NBC News announced it as if it were a fact, and all the world media ran with it, sometimes attributing it to NBC News and sometimes not. That doesn't make a homophobic mass shooting an Islamist terrorist attack. How about citing a real expert in Islamism or terrorism? —&amp;nbsp;[[User:Malik Shabazz|Malik Shabazz]]&amp;nbsp;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Malik Shabazz|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt;/&lt;sub&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Malik Shabazz|Stalk]]&lt;/sub&gt; 21:59, 19 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::Agreed. By later accounts, this appears to have been a combination of some mixed up homophobia/self-hate with some attempted justification on the part of the perpetrator and bandwagon-jumping by ISIL. [[User:Bastun|&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Verdana, sans-serif&quot;&gt;Bastun&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Bastun|Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!]]&lt;/sup&gt; 22:49, 19 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::{{ec}} The case for calling this an &quot;Islamist terrorist attack&quot; is very weak if we follow the sources that I've seen. The sources in the article simple do not support the material in the article. The Daily Mail article says that &quot;ISIS has claimed responsibility&quot;. ISIS is a fringe source and their view can't be asserted in Wikipedia's voice. The Washington Post article merely says that Mateen pledged allegiance to ISIL{{emdash}}again, insufficient for making a conclusion that the shooting was an &quot;Islamist terrorist attack&quot; in Wikipedia's voice. Someone needs to present sources that actually says the Orlando shooting was an Islamist terrorist attack, or it has to be removed per [[WP:V]] and [[WP:OR]]. {{U|Jujutsuan}}, you said {{tq|&quot;Plenty of RS have determined it was an Islamic terrorist attack.&quot;}} Please provide links to some sources that actually say that. - [[user: MrX|Mr]][[user talk:MrX|X]] 23:09, 19 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::::Is [http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/13/us/orlando-nightclub-shooting.html?_r=0 NYT] good enough for you? Not to mention the ''[http://www.nationalreview.com/article/436507/orlando-attack-was-islamic-terrorism-obama-still-refuses-name-it National Review]'' (POV, yes, but reputable) and [http://www.cbsnews.com/news/orlando-shooting-investigation-gunman-omar-mateen-911-call/ CBS]. He pledged allegiance to ISIS; that can ''only mean'' he was an Islamic terrorist, at least in his own mind (which is, incidentally, what makes someone an ''Islamic'' terrorist instead of just a generic terrorist; ISIS leadership didn't have to plan it or have any contact with Mateen in order for him to have done it in their name and according to (his interpretation of) their ideology/exegesis.). No &quot;experts on Islamism&quot; are needed to confirm the obvious when he's stated his motives in plain English. It doesn't even matter if it was a secondary motive; it was still at least part of his rationale. '''''[[User:Jujutsuan|&lt;font color=&quot;green&quot;&gt;Jujutsuan&lt;/font&gt;]]''''' (&lt;small&gt;Please notify with &amp;#123;&amp;#123;[[Template:re|re]]&amp;#125;&amp;#125;&lt;/small&gt; &amp;#124; [[User talk:Jujutsuan|talk]] &amp;#x7C; [[Special:Contributions/Jujutsuan|contribs]]) 00:27, 20 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::::::None of those sources state that the shooting was an &quot;Islamist terrorist attack&quot;. In fact, one source says that according to FBI Director James Comey, &quot;the shooter’s past comments about Islamist groups were &quot;inflammatory and contradictory.&quot;. - [[user: MrX|Mr]][[user talk:MrX|X]] 00:41, 20 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::::::The ''National Review'' may (or may not) be reputable, but it is absolutely not a [[WP:reliable source|reliable source]] for facts. And why are the other two sources nearly a week old? Have authorities learned nothing about the attack since last Monday morning? —&amp;nbsp;[[User:MShabazz|MShabazz]]&amp;nbsp;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Malik Shabazz|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt;/&lt;sub&gt;[[Special:Contributions/MShabazz|Stalk]]&lt;/sub&gt; 01:12, 20 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::::::I'm conflicted on this at the moment. We do &quot;variability, not truth&quot;, but RS are starting to cast doubt on the event as being Islamist extremism/terrorism. The classification as &quot;Islamist&quot; is what's being questioned. Since there's &quot;no deadline&quot; and all, it may be prudent to exclude it for now until a more firm conclusion is given by investigators. At the same time, if it is included, it can always be removed if things change. [[User:EvergreenFir|'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:#8b00ff;&quot;&gt;Eve&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#6528c2;&quot;&gt;rgr&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#3f5184;&quot;&gt;een&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#197947;&quot;&gt;Fir&lt;/span&gt;''']] [[User talk:EvergreenFir|(talk)]] &lt;small&gt;Please &amp;#123;&amp;#123;[[Template:re|re]]&amp;#125;&amp;#125;&lt;/small&gt; 02:07, 20 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::::::::Regarding ''National Review'', [[WP:BIASED]] says: &lt;font color=green&gt;&quot;Wikipedia articles are required to present a neutral point of view. However, reliable sources are not required to be neutral, unbiased, or objective.&quot;&lt;/font&gt; So why exactly is it not RS-worthy??<br /> :::::::::Regarding your other complaints, it has been determined that he swore his allegiance to ISIS (confused, contradictory, or otherwise). Are you saying ISIS isn't Islamist or Islamic terrorist? This is really very simple. '''''[[User:Jujutsuan|&lt;font color=&quot;green&quot;&gt;Jujutsuan&lt;/font&gt;]]''''' (&lt;small&gt;Please notify with &amp;#123;&amp;#123;[[Template:re|re]]&amp;#125;&amp;#125;&lt;/small&gt; &amp;#124; [[User talk:Jujutsuan|talk]] &amp;#x7C; [[Special:Contributions/Jujutsuan|contribs]]) 03:39, 20 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::::::::Him swearing allegiance matters less than how RS characterize the attack. I may be determined his actions were not Islamist terrorism despite him trying to make them appear to be so. But what matters here is what RS call it. That's why I'm conflicted: RS characterizations of events are changing as the information available changes. So too must Wikipedia change in response to the RS. But if we see things are influx, contradictory, or being questioned by top-quality RS and investigators alike, we do have the option to postpone our decisions pending further information. There is not deadline and no need to publish the latest, breaking news (NOTNEWS after all). I think within a week we'll have a better idea of what to do. Until then, I'm not going to commit one way or the other. [[User:EvergreenFir|'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:#8b00ff;&quot;&gt;Eve&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#6528c2;&quot;&gt;rgr&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#3f5184;&quot;&gt;een&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#197947;&quot;&gt;Fir&lt;/span&gt;''']] [[User talk:EvergreenFir|(talk)]] &lt;small&gt;Please &amp;#123;&amp;#123;[[Template:re|re]]&amp;#125;&amp;#125;&lt;/small&gt; 03:59, 20 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::::::::::Produce the RS that contradicts the claim that he was a self-radicalized islamic terrorist. [[User:Mrdthree|Mrdthree]] ([[User talk:Mrdthree|talk]]) 12:17, 20 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::::::::The world's asylums are full of people who claim they're [[Napoleon]]. If one of them attacks a psychiatric nurse, we don't attribute the attack to the [[First French Empire|French Empire]] - even if clickbaity tabloids or reactionary sources do. [[User:Bastun|&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Verdana, sans-serif&quot;&gt;Bastun&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Bastun|Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!]]&lt;/sup&gt; 08:56, 20 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::::::::::The Director of the FBI said he was a self radicalized islamic extremist. Your are making unsourced speculation [[User:Mrdthree|Mrdthree]] ([[User talk:Mrdthree|talk]]) 12:17, 20 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::::::::::Here's a quote and source: {{tq|In fact, intelligence officials and investigators say they're &quot;becoming increasingly convinced that the motive for this attack had very little — or maybe nothing — to do with ISIS.&quot;}} [http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2016/06/18/482621690/investigators-say-orlando-shooter-showed-few-warning-signs-of-radicalization]. Also check out [https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2016/06/13/omar-mateen-may-not-have-understood-the-difference-between-isis-al-qaeda-and-hezbollah/]. There's questions being raised by investigators about whether or not this was truly Islamist terrorism or just someone using it as an excuse/cover. [[User:EvergreenFir|'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:#8b00ff;&quot;&gt;Eve&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#6528c2;&quot;&gt;rgr&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#3f5184;&quot;&gt;een&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#197947;&quot;&gt;Fir&lt;/span&gt;''']] [[User talk:EvergreenFir|(talk)]] &lt;small&gt;Please &amp;#123;&amp;#123;[[Template:re|re]]&amp;#125;&amp;#125;&lt;/small&gt; 20:45, 20 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::::::::::::Again the NPR story is the only source on the claim and its based on anonymous sources that contradict the statements of officials on the record, including the president. The other story is about a comment he made to coworkers 3 years earlier. It is grasping at straws to psychoanalyze a dead man who had no psychiatric problems to the point that it overrides what he said he did when its consistent with his past behavior.[[User:Mrdthree|Mrdthree]] ([[User talk:Mrdthree|talk]]) 22:28, 21 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::Multiple official and news sources stated that the killer is a terrorist. Multiple official and news sources say that he was a self-radicalized islamist. Deeper investigation into triggers are speculative. A growing list is below.[[User:Mrdthree|Mrdthree]] ([[User talk:Mrdthree|talk]]) 10:25, 20 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::: Miami Herald: http://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/community/miami-dade/article83819372.html, 'Terror enemy No. 1: Lone wolves like Orlando killer Omar Mateen'; cites President Obama President Barack Obama said “it is increasingly clear” that the killer, a U.S. citizen, became “radicalized” by “extremist information and propaganda over the internet”. Comey, the FBI director, said no evidence gathered so far pointed to a “plot directed from outside the United States” or that the killer was a member of a foreign terrorist organization.[[User:Mrdthree|Mrdthree]] ([[User talk:Mrdthree|talk]]) 10:25, 20 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::: http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2016/06/orlando-shooters-motives-remain-unclear.html 'As Profile of Orlando Shooter Develops, Questions About His Motives Remain' But while nothing we've learned from further investigation into Mateen’s life has invalidated the theory that he was ultimately motivated by Islamic extremism, a profile has developed which, at this point, may align better with a typical mass-shooter than a man who was solely inspired by ISIS to become a jihadist.[[User:Mrdthree|Mrdthree]] ([[User talk:Mrdthree|talk]]) 10:25, 20 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::: http://www.cbsnews.com/news/fbi-to-release-transcript-of-calls-between-orlando-gunman-omar-mateen-police/ FBI to release transcript of calls between Orlando gunman, police At this point, Lynch said investigators do not have any information that reveals Mateen was being directed from overseas terrorist networks. Investigators, however, have found evidence of online radicalization.[[User:Mrdthree|Mrdthree]] ([[User talk:Mrdthree|talk]]) 10:25, 20 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/jun/13/pulse-nightclub-attack-shooter-radicalized-internet-orlando FBI and Obama confirm Omar Mateen was radicalized on the internet. 'Comey added that he was “highly confident” that Mateen had been radicalized at least in part online. In chorus with Obama he emphasized that there continued to be no evidence, however, of any direct plot, or direction of the shooter, by any foreign group or network.' [[User:Mrdthree|Mrdthree]] ([[User talk:Mrdthree|talk]]) 12:13, 20 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::Er, you do realise '''none''' of those quotes back what you're saying? Quite the opposite, in fact. [[User:Bastun|&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Verdana, sans-serif&quot;&gt;Bastun&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Bastun|Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!]]&lt;/sup&gt; 10:34, 20 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::: They all say he was a self-radicalized islamist. Isnt that what this is about?[[User:Mrdthree|Mrdthree]] ([[User talk:Mrdthree|talk]]) 10:40, 20 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::: So show the good faith brother. Here is the article https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/jun/13/pulse-nightclub-attack-shooter-radicalized-internet-orlando FBI and Obama confirm Omar Mateen was radicalized on the internet. Explain how this disproves he was an islamic radical. [[User:Mrdthree|Mrdthree]] ([[User talk:Mrdthree|talk]]) 12:02, 20 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::* &quot;No evidence gathered so far pointed to a plot directed from outside the US or that the killer was a member of a terrorist org&quot;; <br /> :::::* &quot;a profile has developed which, at this point, may align better with a typical mass-shooter than a man who was solely inspired by ISIS to become a jihadist.&quot;<br /> :::::* &quot;At this point, Lynch said investigators do not have any information that reveals Mateen was being directed from overseas terrorist networks.&quot;<br /> :::::* &quot;there continued to be no evidence, however, of any direct plot, or direction of the shooter, by any foreign group or network.&quot;<br /> :::::These, combined with other sources claiming Mateen was probably gay himself, point to a lone-wolf psychotic rather than any sort of organised terrorism. [[User:Bastun|&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Verdana, sans-serif&quot;&gt;Bastun&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Bastun|Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!]]&lt;/sup&gt; 12:42, 20 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::::: The last item is unsourced speculation. Where does it say this list excludes lone wolf islamic terrorism? [[User:Mrdthree|Mrdthree]] ([[User talk:Mrdthree|talk]]) 12:50, 20 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::::::As Bastun has aptly pointed out, the sources presented immediately above contradict the notion that the shooting was an Islamist terrorist attack. At best, they support the claim &quot;Mateen may have been radicalized over the internet&quot;. That is far too speculative to justify including the shooting on list of Islamist terrorist attacks. [[WP:OP|We simply can't make such leaps of logic]].- [[user: MrX|Mr]][[user talk:MrX|X]] 13:26, 20 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::::::The 911 call he made to the cops don't mention gays at all, it just mentions Islam and ISIL. I find it hard to believe the bending over backwards we see here to not call this Islamist terror. It is very well sourced and should be included. &quot;swears allegiance to ISIS&quot; is the next one down, and this attack is certainly more than that. The bias of editors not withstanding, the sources clearly show the inspiration for this attack.[[User:Sir Joseph|Sir Joseph]] &lt;sup&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;Green&quot;&gt;[[User_talk:Sir Joseph|(talk)]]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/sup&gt; 16:42, 20 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> {{od}}[https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2016/06/20/what-the-orlando-gunman-told-hostage-negotiators-and-dispatchers-during-his-rampage/ &quot;many questions remain unanswered. Investigators do not know ... Mateen’s reasons for attacking the popular LGBT nightspot.&quot;] From an article written '''today''' on the ''Washington Post'' website. Not week-old speculation, but the current status of the investigation. —&amp;nbsp;[[User:Malik Shabazz|Malik Shabazz]]&amp;nbsp;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Malik Shabazz|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt;/&lt;sub&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Malik Shabazz|Stalk]]&lt;/sub&gt; 16:53, 20 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :Right, we don't know everything yet, why he chose that or whatever. But we do know it was Islamic Terrorism. He said as such. The 911 calls say as such and the sources say as such. The shooter pledged support to ISIS, how is that not enough? It was enough for the France incident, it was enough for many other incidents. Why the sudden urge to not include very well sourced information? http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2016/06/19/lynch_partial_transcript_of_orlando_911_calls_will_have_references_to_isis_cut_out.html There is a difference between saying this was an ISIS attack or just saying this was Islamic Terror. We don't know if this was sponsored by ISIL and most likely wasn't, but it was Islamic Terror. Partial Transcript: http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/orlando-nightclub-massacre/fbi-releases-transcripts-911-calls-orlando-massacre-n595626 &quot;In these calls, the shooter, who '''identified himself as an Islamic soldier''', &quot;, &quot;: '''I pledge allegiance to [omitted]''' may God protect him [in Arabic], on behalf of [omitted].&quot; and more.[[User:Sir Joseph|Sir Joseph]] &lt;sup&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;Green&quot;&gt;[[User_talk:Sir Joseph|(talk)]]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/sup&gt; 16:56, 20 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> : You are selectively quoting the source. the source (FBI Assistant Special Agent in Charge Ron Hopper) went on to say ....agents think Mateen “was radicalized domestically,” rather than directed by any foreign terrorist group. This is what every reliable source with named sources states. Not my opinion. [[User:Mrdthree|Mrdthree]] ([[User talk:Mrdthree|talk]]) 05:03, 21 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::See above, re Napoleon. If he'd identified himself as a Martian, that still wouldn't make it an act of interplanetary terrorism. Per plenty of sources, the perpetrator seems to have been a disturbed individual, probably gay himself, which caused him all sorts of mental problems given his apparent contradictory religious beliefs. [[User:Bastun|&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Verdana, sans-serif&quot;&gt;Bastun&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Bastun|Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!]]&lt;/sup&gt; 18:22, 20 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::I guess that's one way to make sure there is no list of Islamic Terror acts. [[User:Sir Joseph|Sir Joseph]] &lt;sup&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;Green&quot;&gt;[[User_talk:Sir Joseph|(talk)]]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/sup&gt; 18:28, 20 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::No. It's one way to ensure that the list of Islam'''''ist''''' (notice the difference, it's important) terrorist acts - which I've added to myself - is '''accurate'''. [[User:Bastun|&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Verdana, sans-serif&quot;&gt;Bastun&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Bastun|Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!]]&lt;/sup&gt; 18:43, 20 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::* [https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/troubled-quiet-macho-angry-the-volatile-life-of-omar-mateen/2016/06/17/15229250-34a6-11e6-8758-d58e76e11b12_story.html &quot;Mateen appeared conflicted about his religion and his sexuality, according to dozens of interviews with those who knew him. He married twice, each time to a woman he had met online, even though he also seemed drawn to gay life and culture.&quot;]<br /> :::::* [http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/orlando-shooter-omar-mateen-had-gay-tendencies-according-to-ex-wife-as-pulse-patron-say-attacker-was-a7081041.html Orlando shooter Omar Mateen's ex-wife says he had 'gay tendencies' as Pulse patron describes attacker as 'a regular']<br /> :::::* [http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/news/orlando-shooter-omar-mateen-was-gay-former-classma/nrfwW/ The FBI is investigating reports that Orlando nightclub shooter Omar Mateen used gay dating apps and regularly visited Pulse before he shot more than 100 people inside, killing 49. One man said Mateen had asked him out, while another said they had chatted on a dating app].<br /> :::::Hardly your average Islamist terrorist... [[User:Bastun|&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Verdana, sans-serif&quot;&gt;Bastun&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Bastun|Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!]]&lt;/sup&gt; 19:11, 20 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::::Are you saying a gay person can't be a terrorist? Read the news today, there is no mention of his sexuality in the 911 transcripts, only Islam and terrorism related information was in the 911 call. [[User:Sir Joseph|Sir Joseph]] &lt;sup&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;Green&quot;&gt;[[User_talk:Sir Joseph|(talk)]]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/sup&gt; 19:40, 20 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::::I am saying the issue is a lot more complicated than &quot;He phoned 911 and said he was an Islamist terrorist&quot;. [[User:Bastun|&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Verdana, sans-serif&quot;&gt;Bastun&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Bastun|Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!]]&lt;/sup&gt; 19:48, 20 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::::::Then start to remove many of the items on the list where the &quot;terrorist claimed allegiance to ISIS.&quot; The DOJ just released the full transcript and again, no mention of gays, only Islam. [[User:Sir Joseph|Sir Joseph]] &lt;sup&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;Green&quot;&gt;[[User_talk:Sir Joseph|(talk)]]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/sup&gt; 20:04, 20 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::::::Er... why would you expect a mention of gays?! [[User:Bastun|&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Verdana, sans-serif&quot;&gt;Bastun&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Bastun|Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!]]&lt;/sup&gt; 20:07, 20 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::::::::From the 911 call from the gay club? Isn't it surprising that the killer didn't mention gays once, yet spoke about Islam? Again, he self-identified as a muslim terrorist, I fail to see the need to bend over backwards to have this labeled as a regulr shooting and not Islamic Terror. [[User:Sir Joseph|Sir Joseph]] &lt;sup&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;Green&quot;&gt;[[User_talk:Sir Joseph|(talk)]]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/sup&gt; 20:22, 20 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::::::::Once again - Islam'''ist''', not Islamic. I think your POV is showing... Still not sure why you think the 911 call needs to have mentioned gays, and I think it's irrelevant. What is relevant is that the person who murdered multiple gay people at a gay nightclub appears to have been a regular customer and was apparently gay himself. Which is not common among Islamist terrorists... [[User:Bastun|&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Verdana, sans-serif&quot;&gt;Bastun&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Bastun|Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!]]&lt;/sup&gt; 20:38, 20 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::::::::::Yes, but we cannot SYNTH one way or the other. RS reported it as Islamist terrorist at first. They're starting to question that (e.g., [http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2016/06/18/482621690/investigators-say-orlando-shooter-showed-few-warning-signs-of-radicalization]). As I said before, I can see a reason for inclusion here based on initial reporting, but we need to be prepared to remove or alter based on future reporting and investigation. If it comes to light that Mateen only used ISIL as a cover or excuse for his actions, but investigators find that this was a &quot;typical&quot; mass shooting, we need to remove it from here. That it's being questioned also justifies exclusion from the list until we have a firmer understanding of events and, more importantly, motive. [[User:EvergreenFir|'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:#8b00ff;&quot;&gt;Eve&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#6528c2;&quot;&gt;rgr&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#3f5184;&quot;&gt;een&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#197947;&quot;&gt;Fir&lt;/span&gt;''']] [[User talk:EvergreenFir|(talk)]] &lt;small&gt;Please &amp;#123;&amp;#123;[[Template:re|re]]&amp;#125;&amp;#125;&lt;/small&gt; 20:48, 20 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::::::::::::normally reliable but it's totally dependent on anonymous sources that contradict official statements. As a primary source it's quality is low.[[Special:Contributions/126.155.46.56|126.155.46.56]] ([[User talk:126.155.46.56|talk]]) 22:47, 20 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::::::::::::A primary source backed by unnamed claims of sources is not reliable. There are no reliable sources claiming he was not an islamist. [[User:Mrdthree|Mrdthree]] ([[User talk:Mrdthree|talk]]) 05:03, 21 June 2016 (UTC) <br /> ::::::::::::PS - please avoid mental illness labels. We do not know if Mateen was ill or not, and using things like &quot;psychotic&quot; to describe him and other shooters is unwarranted and, in this case, a violation of BDP. [[User:EvergreenFir|'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:#8b00ff;&quot;&gt;Eve&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#6528c2;&quot;&gt;rgr&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#3f5184;&quot;&gt;een&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#197947;&quot;&gt;Fir&lt;/span&gt;''']] [[User talk:EvergreenFir|(talk)]] &lt;small&gt;Please &amp;#123;&amp;#123;[[Template:re|re]]&amp;#125;&amp;#125;&lt;/small&gt; 20:50, 20 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::::::::::::You're correct, of course, about my use of the mental illness label - apologies. [[User:Bastun|&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Verdana, sans-serif&quot;&gt;Bastun&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Bastun|Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!]]&lt;/sup&gt; 21:34, 20 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::::::::::whether or not he was a member of ISIS is a red herring. He was investigated by the FBI as a radical Islamist twice before. Public statements made by named government sources in multiple primary sources say he was radicalized.[[Special:Contributions/126.155.46.56|126.155.46.56]] ([[User talk:126.155.46.56|talk]]) 22:47, 20 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::::::::::Not quite. &quot;[http://time.com/4368439/orlando-shooting-omar-mateen-fbi-investigation-dropped/ ...the bureau had investigated and interrogated Omar Mateen on three occasions over the last three years on '''''suspicion''''' he '''''might''''' have been a radicalized Islamic terrorist.&quot;] Of course, the FBI didn't pursue it because no crimes had been committed, and our system of justice is based on [[presumption of innocence]]. Saying that Mateen might have been &quot;radicalized&quot; is not the same as saying that the nightclub shooting was an &quot;Islamist terrorist attack&quot;. Wikipedia does not permit [[WP:OR]].- [[user: MrX|Mr]][[user talk:MrX|X]] 23:43, 20 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::::::::::::The conclusion of the FBI was that he was a radical muslim but not a criminal. He came under investigation because his extremism alarmed fellow muslims https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2016/06/20/i-reported-omar-mateen-to-the-fbi-trump-is-wrong-that-muslims-dont-do-our-part/ [[User:Mrdthree|Mrdthree]] ([[User talk:Mrdthree|talk]]) 04:54, 21 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::::::::::::Good context, but not RS in terms of use in article. [[User:EvergreenFir|'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:#8b00ff;&quot;&gt;Eve&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#6528c2;&quot;&gt;rgr&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#3f5184;&quot;&gt;een&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#197947;&quot;&gt;Fir&lt;/span&gt;''']] [[User talk:EvergreenFir|(talk)]] &lt;small&gt;Please &amp;#123;&amp;#123;[[Template:re|re]]&amp;#125;&amp;#125;&lt;/small&gt; 05:08, 21 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::::::::::::::The article has an FBI official confirm his story-- why isnt it an RS? In particular as evidence for his sympathies and beliefs shared with Anwar Alawaki[[User:Mrdthree|Mrdthree]] ([[User talk:Mrdthree|talk]]) 22:15, 21 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::::::::::::::Because things categorized as opinion pieces (which that is) are not [[WP:RS]]. We can attribute statements directly to the author if we think they're an authority on a certain issue. But better to use [[WP:SECONDARY]] sources. [[User:EvergreenFir|'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:#8b00ff;&quot;&gt;Eve&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#6528c2;&quot;&gt;rgr&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#3f5184;&quot;&gt;een&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#197947;&quot;&gt;Fir&lt;/span&gt;''']] [[User talk:EvergreenFir|(talk)]] &lt;small&gt;Please &amp;#123;&amp;#123;[[Template:re|re]]&amp;#125;&amp;#125;&lt;/small&gt; 22:18, 21 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> So suppose he had a gay affair (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3653734/Puerto-Rican-man-claiming-Orlando-shooter-s-gay-lover-describes-friends-benefits-relationship-says-attack-revenge-Omar-Mateen-discovered-one-men-d-threesome-HIV-positive.html) became concerned about having AIDS and then in a fit of revenge and reactionary religious fervor (saw his condition as the fulfillment of religious law) he attacked the nightclub. Does this rule in or rule out? (Speculating now so prob done for while) [[User:Mrdthree|Mrdthree]] ([[User talk:Mrdthree|talk]]) 07:20, 22 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :I think perhaps you may need to read policies such as [[WP:RS]], [[WP:V]], [[WP:NPOV]] and [[WP:NOR]], for starters... [[User:Bastun|&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Verdana, sans-serif&quot;&gt;Bastun&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Bastun|Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!]]&lt;/sup&gt; 20:03, 22 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> I have opened an RfC to cut the useless bickering. [[User:Kingsindian|Kingsindian]]&amp;nbsp;[[User Talk: Kingsindian|&amp;#9821;]]&amp;nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Kingsindian|&amp;#9818;]] 00:44, 23 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> <br /> EDIT: Didn't see survey. PS: I guess we should have survey about whether 9/11 or 7/7 was an Islamist attack. In fact, let's debate obvious facts until the cows come home. [[User:R00b07|R00b07]] ([[User talk:R00b07|talk]]) 23:46, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == RfC: Should the Orlando shooting be included in this list? ==<br /> <br /> {{rfc|pol|rfcid=EC3234A}}<br /> {{not a vote}}<br /> Should the [[2016 Orlando nightclub shooting]] be included in this list? 00:44, 23 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> === Survey ===<br /> * '''Strong Yes''': The act itself is an act of terrorism. This much is undisputed. Omar was a Muslim. This much is undisputed. We have official recordings and transcripts from Reliable Sources (911, police, district atty) of Omar pledging allegiance to ISIL. This is also undisputed. To say that this act of muslim terror is somehow excused because there is a rumor Omar was gay is simply against all common sense. <br /> * '''Strong Yes''': A self-proclaimed ISIS sympathizer, reported to the FBI on multiple occasions, kills dozens of people and injures dozens more...and we're debating if it had anything to do with Islamic terrorism? Have we lost our minds? I don't buy into the far-right narrative that says Wikipedia is a liberal thinktank...but this is sure playing into that. I challenge anything vote &quot;no&quot; to explain what could Omar Marteen have said or done, over what he already did, to convince you this was an Islamic terror attack? If you can't think of an answer, or have to go to great lengths to invent one, then consider you're letting your bias control you. Occam's razor makes this pretty simple... &lt;!-- Template:Unsigned --&gt;&lt;small&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—&amp;nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Ceran|Ceran]] ([[User talk:Ceran|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Ceran|contribs]]) 18:14, 30 June 2016 (UTC)&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/small&gt; &lt;!--Autosigned by SineBot--&gt;<br /> {{User:EvergreenFir/Zombie|Ceran|11 months}}&lt;font face=&quot;#&quot; color=&quot;#35b794&quot;&gt;[[User:Dschslava|'''Dsch'''slava]]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;#3558b7&quot;&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contribs/Dschslava|'' Δx '']]&lt;/sup&gt;[[User talk:Dschslava|parlez moi]]&lt;/font&gt; 04:57, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> ** Wikipedia has an obvious bias to the left. That this is even under debate is absurd, and clearly part of a liberal ideology to avoid associating Islam with terror and violence. Now that you've seen, look at other political issues on Wikipedia with new eyes. [[Special:Contributions/24.218.115.184|24.218.115.184]] ([[User talk:24.218.115.184|talk]]) 19:51, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::: Remember to [[WP:AGF]] or you will get in trouble. [[User:R00b07|R00b07]] ([[User talk:R00b07|talk]]) 02:08, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> * '''No''': At the moment, the motives remain unclear. It seems he did not have any links to foreign organizations like ISIS. See discussion [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:List_of_Islamist_terrorist_attacks#Orlando_shooting here] for various sources. [[User:Kingsindian|Kingsindian]]&amp;nbsp;[[User Talk: Kingsindian|&amp;#9821;]]&amp;nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Kingsindian|&amp;#9818;]] 00:44, 23 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> **You don't have to have any links in order to support the cause and implement an agenda. [[Special:Contributions/203.30.95.21|203.30.95.21]] ([[User talk:203.30.95.21|talk]]) 00:18, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> ***But you do have to have links to reliable sources to report it on Wikipedia. We are not a news outlet, we don't report what hasn't been reliably and widely reported. [[User:Mr rnddude|Mr rnddude]] ([[User talk:Mr rnddude|talk]]) 00:23, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> ****Right, we are an information hub and we use sources given by news outlets to provide accurate information to the public. [[User:R00b07|R00b07]] ([[User talk:R00b07|talk]]) 02:09, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> * '''Strong yes''': The attacker was reported by innumerable sources, including law enforcement agencies as well as numerous media outlets, as pledging allegiance to Islamist terror organizations and leaders and repeatedly stating that he was carrying out the attack in the name of Islam. Political considerations, such as those that led the FBI to attempt to redact mentions of Islam or ISIS from the transcripts of his calls, can and must not be taken into account when compiling data for an impartial encyclopedia. [[Special:Contributions/2601:602:9802:99B2:B5B0:510C:53AF:F763|2601:602:9802:99B2:B5B0:510C:53AF:F763]] ([[User talk:2601:602:9802:99B2:B5B0:510C:53AF:F763|talk]]) 02:19, 23 June 2016 (UTC) &lt;small&gt;— [[User:2601:602:9802:99B2:B5B0:510C:53AF:F763|2601:602:9802:99B2:B5B0:510C:53AF:F763]] ([[User talk:2601:602:9802:99B2:B5B0:510C:53AF:F763|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/2601:602:9802:99B2:B5B0:510C:53AF:F763|contribs]]) has made [[Wikipedia:Single-purpose account|few or no other edits]] outside this topic. &lt;/small&gt;<br /> :: '''Comment''': &quot;Political considerations...can and must not be taken into account...&quot; What do you mean to imply here? That sentence not only makes no sense, but you are also suggesting that an independent, impartial encyclopedia should presume that the official statements of law enforcement agencies should be completely disregarded when documenting an ongoing event involving [[WP:BLP]]s. Your &quot;political considerations&quot; are nothing more than conspiratorial nonsense. &lt;&gt; [[User:Alt lys er svunnet hen|Alt lys er svunnet hen]] ([[User talk:Alt lys er svunnet hen|talk]]) 08:34, 28 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> *'''No''' Today's news brought [http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/pulse-orlando-nightclub-shooting/omar-mateen/os-omar-mateen-lover-talks-20160622-story.html reports] that the gunman's male lover, who has been interviewed by the FBI, says the attack was motivated by revenge for mistreatment at the nightclub and fear of contracting HIV from gay Latinos. Read [[WP:NOTNEWS]] and [[WP:NODEADLINE]]. Let's wait for the dust to settle before we declare this Islamist terrorism. —&amp;nbsp;[[User:Malik Shabazz|Malik Shabazz]]&amp;nbsp;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Malik Shabazz|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt;/&lt;sub&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Malik Shabazz|Stalk]]&lt;/sub&gt; 02:36, 23 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ** The problem is that the dust did settle, and the FBI made it clear that it was Islamic Terror. [[User:R00b07|R00b07]] ([[User talk:R00b07|talk]]) 02:11, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> &lt;s&gt;*'''Too early to vote''' There is evidence for the position but there are developing stories that make it a mistake to commit to a particular conclusion now. As it is hard to undo these votes I would rather just leave the issue on hold and wait for evidence to develop. [[User:Mrdthree|Mrdthree]] ([[User talk:Mrdthree|talk]]) 03:30, 23 June 2016 (UTC)&lt;/s&gt;<br /> :: '''Comment''': The FBI has further investigated and found that there was no evidence Mateen was gay. http://www.nola.com/crime/index.ssf/2016/06/orlando_shooter_gay_omar_matee.html &lt;!-- Template:Unsigned --&gt;&lt;small&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—&amp;nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Marquis de Faux |Marquis de Faux ]] ([[User talk:Marquis de Faux |talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Marquis de Faux |contribs]]) 17:15, 30 June 2016&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/small&gt;<br /> *'''Yes''' Omar Mateen pledged allegence to ISIS https://www.fbi.gov/tampa/press-releases/2016/investigative-update-regarding-pulse-nightclub-shooting. ISIS has a strategy of encouraging lone wolf attacks in Western countries for more than two years https://www.fbi.gov/news/testimony/isil-in-america-domestic-terror-and-radicalization http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/jun/16/isis-promoting-lone-wolf-attacks-scheming-to-infil/ http://edition.cnn.com/2014/09/22/world/meast/isis-threatens-west/ Mateen voiced his motives to victims (saying it wasnt a racist attack it was to stop bombings of ISIL) http://www.democracynow.org/2016/6/15/headlines/orlando_survivor_says_shooter_wanted_us_to_stop_bombing_afghanistan and voiced his motives to officials which were to stop bombings of ISIL http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-06-15/orlando-gunman-wanted-to-stop-us-bombing-afghanistan/7511586 and posted the same motivations on facebook while the crime was in progress http://www.thehindu.com/news/international/stop-bombing-is-mateen-wrote-on-facebook/article8737808.ece. Official investigators and other press outlets discount gay revenge story http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-orlando-gay-fbi-20160623-snap-story.html, http://www.rollingstone.com/culture/news/authorities-no-evidence-orlando-shooter-omar-mateen-was-gay-20160624--[[User:Mrdthree|Mrdthree]] ([[User talk:Mrdthree|talk]]) 23:39, 27 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> There isn't a vote to be had here. http://www.cnn.com/2016/06/20/us/orlando-nightclub-shooting/ He pledged allegiance to ISIL's leader and ISIL in his 911 call. It shuold obviously included. Anyone saying no needs to have hteir head examined.[[Special:Contributions/65.29.77.61|65.29.77.61]] ([[User talk:65.29.77.61|talk]]) 05:24, 23 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::[[User:65.29.77.61]], no one is trying to suppress or exclude info about his 'allegiance calls'. But investigation is still unclear as to how much this was a conscious terrorist attack, how much homophobia, how much a disturbed individual best compared with a school-shooter. The true picture is that we don't know yet which it truly was. [[User:Pincrete|Pincrete]] ([[User talk:Pincrete|talk]]) 16:32, 23 June 2016 (UTC) <br /> :::::: Taking a gander at the other Islamist attacks, it's fairly obvious common-sense-wise why he did what he did. The tricky part is getting good sources to back up that what he did is inline with the THOUSANDS of other Islamist attacks that have happened across the globe. [[User:R00b07|R00b07]] ([[User talk:R00b07|talk]]) 02:07, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> *'''Yes''', he pledged allegiance to ISIS, on the 911 call, he mentioned Islam and did not mention gays at all. It clearly is the same as other terror attacks where &quot;pledged allegiance to ISIS.&quot; [[User:Sir Joseph|Sir Joseph]] &lt;sup&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;Green&quot;&gt;[[User_talk:Sir Joseph|(talk)]]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/sup&gt; 13:46, 23 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> *'''No'''. The fact that he &quot;did not mention gays at all&quot; is a somewhat bizarre [[non sequitur]]. If someone dressed as Napoleon or claiming allegiance to Mars attacked somewhere, we would not attribute it to the [[French Empire]] or add it to a [[List of interplanetary attacks]]. [[User:Bastun|&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Verdana, sans-serif&quot;&gt;Bastun&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Bastun|Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!]]&lt;/sup&gt; 15:12, 23 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :*And yet this same article had entries where the terrorist &quot;claimed allegiance&quot; to ISIS so is therefore included on the list. Same here. [[User:Sir Joseph|Sir Joseph]] &lt;sup&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;Green&quot;&gt;[[User_talk:Sir Joseph|(talk)]]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/sup&gt; 15:56, 23 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :*Somebody claiming to be Napoleon or from Mars is obviously wrong/lying though. So I don't think this is a valid argument. Somebody claiming allegiance to Napoleon and attacking a gay club would not act in allegiance to Napoleon because it does not align with Napoleon's goals. Somebody claiming allegiance with IS and attacking a gay club does act in allegiance with IS. It does not matter if he was radicalized abroad, domestic or on the internet. It does not matter if he acted by order of IS or not. So people arguing that this was not an islamist terrorist attack are basically saying it was a false flag operation to discredit IS? &lt;!-- Template:Unsigned IP --&gt;&lt;small class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—&amp;nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/212.202.124.186|212.202.124.186]] ([[User talk:212.202.124.186|talk]]) 10:07, 1 July 2016 (UTC)&lt;/small&gt; &lt;!--Autosigned by SineBot--&gt;<br /> :::Feel free to read this section to learn what people are saying. I don't think any of them are saying that. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#AAA;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 10:21, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> *'''Ambivalent''' - As pointed out above, other entries on this list have been made based on perpetrator claims. However, the current state of the investigator suggests other motives are possible (if not likely). I'm ambivalent because, on one hand, sources treated this as an Islamist terrorist attack. On the other hand, there's now doubt about that characterization. If it's included, we can always take it down should the investigation prove otherwise. The reverse is true too; we can always add it later. Our task is a bit like those of pollsters at fivethirtyeight predicting election outcomes: we must consider the trend and trajectory of the RS, and give weight based on recency, reputation, and depth. There's ample reason to include it based on older information, but sufficient reason to exclude it based on newer, better information. [[User:EvergreenFir|'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:#8b00ff;&quot;&gt;Eve&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#6528c2;&quot;&gt;rgr&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#3f5184;&quot;&gt;een&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#197947;&quot;&gt;Fir&lt;/span&gt;''']] [[User talk:EvergreenFir|(talk)]] &lt;small&gt;Please &amp;#123;&amp;#123;[[Template:re|re]]&amp;#125;&amp;#125;&lt;/small&gt; 16:22, 23 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> *'''Too early to say''' Therefore not yet. Whilst I respect EvergreenFir's we can add it or take it out assessment, I prefer the 'add it when clear' option. Alternatively make the text reflect that this is one of the theories being speculated about at present. We just don't know what the motive was yet. [[User:Pincrete|Pincrete]] ([[User talk:Pincrete|talk]]) 16:50, 23 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> * '''No need to [[Rush to Judgment]] here'''. This seems ([[opinion]]) to be more of a homophobic thing than a religious one. To me. At this time. [[User:Carptrash|Carptrash]] ([[User talk:Carptrash|talk]]) 18:16, 23 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> * '''No''': The more we learn about Omar Mateen, the more he seems to be a routine U.S. loner with a range of grudges against the world around him who jumped on the radical Islamic bandwagon after reading a few websites. At best it is too early to say what the motive was.--'''''[[User:ianmacm|&lt;span style=&quot;background:#88b;color:#cff;font-variant:small-caps&quot;&gt;♦Ian&lt;span style=&quot;background:#99c&quot;&gt;Ma&lt;span style=&quot;background:#aad&quot;&gt;c&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;M♦&lt;/span&gt;]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:ianmacm|(talk to me)]]&lt;/sup&gt;''''' 18:22, 23 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> *'''Strong No''' (and I think that's the first time in 3 years I've used the word &quot;strong&quot; in a !vote). This list, being almost entirely without context, should be limited to attacks specifically planned, manned, and/or financed by Islamic terrorist organizations (ISIL does not do that). No such link has been uncovered for Orlando, and not for lack of trying to find one. Mateen was a lone wolf with apparently a mix of motivations for his act, only one of which was propaganda he read on the Internet. It is unclear to what extent he subscribed to, or even understood, jihadist ideology. A witness said he said, &quot;I'm just tired of your people killing my people in Iraq,&quot; and that sort of thing is an extremely thin connection to Islamic terrorism. Our readers do not benefit from a broad-brush interpretation of the words &quot;Islamic terrorism&quot;. The predominance of reliable sources &lt;u&gt;do not&lt;/u&gt; state unequivocally that this was Islamic terrorism, and we do not cherry-pick our sources. The most applicable policies are [[WP:NOR]] and [[WP:NPOV]]. If that's not enough, an effective counter to most of the RS arguments is simple: [[WP:ONUS]]. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#AAA;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 20:25, 23 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::You've added the arbitrary requirement that lone wolf Islamist terrorist attacks cannot be included on this list. I don't see that restriction mentioned anywhere in the article and can imagine no justification for it. Do you have one? Same for the requirement that an attack cannot be included on the list unless it is determined there is only one motivation. If these are requirements, they should be spelled out in the main article: &quot;List of Islamist terrorist attacks planned or carried out by more than one person, and in which the attacker had only one motivation.&quot; Once we do that, then we can create another article that includes ALL Islamist terrorist attacks.[[User:Dansan99|Dansan99]] ([[User talk:Dansan99|talk]]) 01:32, 25 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::{{tq|You've added the arbitrary requirement that lone wolf Islamist terrorist attacks cannot be included on this list.}} Actually that is not an accurate characterization of my argument at all, on multiple points. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#AAA;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 03:44, 25 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::I apologize if I misinterpreted your saying that the list &quot;should be limited to attacks specifically planned, manned, and/or financed by Islamic terrorist organizations&quot; as precluding lone wolf terrorists. Instead of spending additional time analyzing your statement, I'll just ask you: Do you believe that lone wolf Islamist terrorists should be automatically excluded from the list?[[User:Dansan99|Dansan99]] ([[User talk:Dansan99|talk]]) 06:06, 25 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::::I reject the nuance-free premise that Mateen was a &quot;lone wolf Islamic terrorist&quot;. I did not call him that, you distorted my argument by adding that. This is an example of [[straw man]] argument, something to be avoided. I suppose it would be worth debating separately whether a lone wolf who clearly understood and subscribed to jihadist ideology, and who was clearly motivated by that alone, should be included in this list, but that is not the question being decided in this particular RfC. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#AAA;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 06:13, 25 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::::Whether or not he was a lone wolf Islamic terrorist is a separate question. I'm trying to establish a baseline of agreement on the requirements for inclusion of attacks in the list. Once there is agreement on that, it makes it easier to decide if this specific attack meets those requirements. It appears to me that the reason this discussion is so contentious is that we have not reached broad agreement on the requirements for inclusion in the list. One person way above used the first paragraph of the main article as a literal checklist of requirements. But, this immediately drew objections based on presumed requirements not in that list. Some examples that came up repeatedly were: 1. Should undirected, lone wolf attacks be included? 2. Should attacks with multiple motives be included? 3. Should attacks where the attacker has a confused understanding of his professed ideology be included? I think those decisions should be influenced by what reliable sources are saying. Once we decide the criteria, whether a particular attack fits is a separate discussion. But, whatever we decide this list is about should probably be included in the main article, so as not to create further confusion later on. In writing this, I've kind of concluded that this RfC is premature and will bow out of further discussion. When I have the time and energy, and if someone doesn't beat me to it, I'll start a separate topic or topics for discussing criteria for inclusion of attacks in the list.[[User:Dansan99|Dansan99]] ([[User talk:Dansan99|talk]]) 08:08, 25 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::::::I completely agree that this RfC is cart-before-horse if the developers of this article have failed to nail down the criteria for inclusion (which should have been the &lt;u&gt;first&lt;/u&gt; discussion here). But it doesn't work to change an RfC's question and scope midstream. If it were up to me, which it is not, we would abort this RfC as a waste of time and start over with the criteria question (which would also need an RfC). Barring that, we have no choice but to answer the question for Orlando alone, per the RfC's question, and that result could obviously be superseded by a later criteria result. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#AAA;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 08:34, 25 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::::::ISIL and AL Qaeda have had an explicit strategy of trying to recruit ''lone wolf'' terrorists for more than 2 years. Are you aware of this?http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/isis-official-calls-for-lone-wolf-attacks-in-us-and-europe-during-ramadan-a7042296.html http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/jun/16/isis-promoting-lone-wolf-attacks-scheming-to-infil/ http://edition.cnn.com/2014/09/22/world/meast/isis-threatens-west/ [[User:Mrdthree|Mrdthree]] ([[User talk:Mrdthree|talk]]) 23:29, 27 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::::::::I do draw a distinction between direct recruitment and publishing propaganda on the Internet for anyone to read. The last sentence of the article's lead reads: &quot;The Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) said it found no links between ISIL and Mateen.&quot; At the core of this question is whether it better serves our readers to be less selective or more selective in this list, a list that is necessarily without nuance, explanation, or context. My feeling is more selective, and I perceive a desire, conscious or otherwise, to blame as much violence as possible on Islamic terrorism, making Wikipedia a political tool. You are entitled to disagree, and there is probably no &quot;correct&quot; answer to this question. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#AAA;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 00:54, 28 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> *'''No''' per [[WP:V]]. Most reliable sources have not made any conclusive statements because they can't. It is unknown whether Mateen committed the shooting to &quot;further a perceived Islamic religious or political cause&quot;. Many sources speculate about other possible motives for the shooting, like homophobia, or anger about being exposed to HIV. Some sources say that Mateen ''may'' have been inspired by ISIL, but none that I have seen have unequivocally called the shooting an Islamist terrorist attack, so neither can we without committing [[WP:OR|original research]].- [[user: MrX|Mr]][[user talk:MrX|X]] 01:46, 24 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> *'''Strong Yes''', Frankly, I'm dumbfounded that there is any controversy about this at all. We have reliable sources for all the following: Officials have repeatedly referred to it as a terrorist attack. The perpetrator himself, during the attack, pledged allegiance to an Islamist terrorist organization. That organization sent out messages specifically encouraging lone wolf terrorist attacks by their followers on soft targets such as this. Perpetrator had been investigated in past by FBI for Islamist statements. Perpetrator during the attack said it was to influence government policy on bombing in Middle East. Despite reports by others, the FBI has said their investigations have found no credible evidence of a gay double life (and it wouldn't necessarily matter anyway). The evidence in favor of Islamic Terrorism is simply overwhelming. I see nothing but speculation to the contrary. Some people seem to be asking for evidence of ISIS being aware of and specifically directing the attack. That is not a requirement for this to be an Islamist terrorist attack. As stated above, the evidence is that this was a lone wolf attack of the type explicitly encouraged by ISIS.&quot;[[User:Dansan99|Dansan99]] ([[User talk:Dansan99|talk]]) 21:46, 24 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> *:You seem much more certain than the people officially investigating the shooting:<br /> :::{{talkquote|&quot;Comey said Mateen's statements added &quot;confusion&quot; about his inspiration for the attack, because Mateen had expressed loyalty to Islamist groups and figures that are opposed to each other. &quot;|source=''[http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-orlando-nightclub-shooting-live-fbi-director-mateen-claimed-loyalty-to-1465837231-htmlstory.html Los Angeles Times]''}}<br /> :::{{talkquote|&quot;&quot;I cannot tell you definitively that we will ever narrow it down to one motivation,&quot; U.S. Attorney General Loretta Lynch said.&quot;|source=''[http://www.cnn.com/2016/06/22/us/omar-mateen-timeline/ CNN]''}}<br /> :::{{talkquote|&quot;FBI Director James Comey said Monday that there was no evidence to indicate that Orlando mass shooter Omar Mateen was directed by an outside terror organization nor was he part of an international terror network.&quot;|source=''[http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2016/06/13/james-comey-fbi-orlando-shooting/85834956/ USA Today]''}}<br /> ::- [[user: MrX|Mr]][[user talk:MrX|X]] 22:20, 24 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::It's not at all unusual for a partisan to have a confused understanding of the group he is supporting. The question is what he believed (as indicated by what he said), not what makes sense to us. Besides, all the groups he declared allegiance to or affinity with are Islamist groups, so it doesn't change the answer to the question at hand. Regarding number of motivations, having one motivation is also not a requirement. We know he mentioned allegiance to an Islamist organization (he mentioned nothing else in the released transcript), and that's enough to make this list, even if secondary motivations are later determined. I already addressed the question of him being specifically directed by ISIS to carry out this particular attack. It's not a requirement. A lone wolf Islamist terrorist attack is still an Islamist terrorist attack.[[User:Dansan99|Dansan99]] ([[User talk:Dansan99|talk]]) 00:37, 25 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::Is a vote space a place to argue? If so Quote 1 regards a statement Mateen made in 2013. Quote 2 is irrelevant as all Official agree a primary motivation was islamic extremism. Quote 3 makes a distinction between domestic and international terrorism, not islamic and other terrorism[[User:Mrdthree|Mrdthree]] ([[User talk:Mrdthree|talk]]) 11:09, 25 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::It's not a vote space; it's a discussion to try to determine consensus. Quote 1 is directly related to his &quot;inspiration for the attack&quot;. Your comment about Quote 2 [[begs the question]]. Quote 3 doesn't make any distinction. It encompasses any outside terror organizations, which obviously includes Islamist terror organizations. It amplifies this by also stating that there is no evidence that he was part of &quot;an international terror network&quot;. The only thing it leaves unanswered is whether Mateen's apparently independent actions were motivated by Islamist extremism for furtherance of a political or religious agenda. His dubious pledge of allegiance is insufficient for making such a conclusion in Wikipedia's voice.- [[user: MrX|Mr]][[user talk:MrX|X]] 12:28, 25 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::::Its original research to claim that Quote 1 is in anyway related to the current attack. Please return to the article for context. Perhaps there are arguable elements in Q2 and Q3 but there is nothing dubious about his pledge of allegence to ISIS. It is an agreed fact. What you mean is that you doubt his capacity or honesty. However there is no record of insanity so his capacity is not at question. That means you doubt his honesty, correct? [[User:Mrdthree|Mrdthree]] ([[User talk:Mrdthree|talk]]) 11:16, 27 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::::{{tq|&quot;Its original research to claim that Quote 1 is in anyway related to the current attack&quot;}}. I guess you're saying the FBI Director used original research when he discussed Mateen's &quot;inspiration for the attack&quot;. Our [[WP:OR]] policy does not extend to reliable sources. I don't have an opinion about Mateen's &quot;honesty&quot; or state of mind, but the FBI director and several sources obviously do.- [[user: MrX|Mr]][[user talk:MrX|X]] 13:20, 27 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::::::OK I misunderstood the quote; I thought it was the 2013 reference. It is a reference to their current motivations. Here is Comeys statement about 'confusion': {{tq|&quot;During the calls he said he was doing this for the leader of ISIL, who he named and pledged loyalty to, but he also appeared to claim solidarity with the perpetrators of the Boston Marathon bombing, and solidarity with a Florida man who died as a suicide bomber in Syria for al Nusra Front, a group in conflict with Islamic State. The bombers at the Boston Marathon and the suicide bomber from Florida were not inspired by ISIL, which adds a little bit to the confusion about his motives.}} https://www.fbi.gov/news/speeches/update-on-orlando-terrorism-investigation [[User:Mrdthree|Mrdthree]] ([[User talk:Mrdthree|talk]]) 23:00, 27 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::::::The solidarity he expressed was in calling them homeboys, which is hardly a pledge of allegence (as he did to ISIS){{tq|During one of the 911 calls between the operator and Omar Mir Seddique Mateen, Mateen made a reference to the Tsarnaev brothers by calling them his “homeboys.” At this point in time, all evidence collected to date shows no connection between Mateen and the Tsarnaev brothers.&quot;}}https://www.fbi.gov/boston/press-releases/2016/statement-from-special-agent-in-charge-harold-h.-shaw-regarding-omar-mir-seddique-mateens-reference-to-the-tsarnaev-brothers. [[User:Mrdthree|Mrdthree]] ([[User talk:Mrdthree|talk]]) 23:12, 27 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::Exactly, all those quotes above can be perfectly true and coexist with Mateen's extremist motivation. In fact, that has been the affirmative motive of the attack according to investigators, from the article I posted below: &quot;He claimed the shooting was carried out in allegiance to the militant group Islamic State, as a message to halt U.S. bombing in Iraq and Syria.&quot; This isn't a &quot;process of elimination&quot; issue. &lt;small class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—&amp;nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/73.233.156.49|73.233.156.49]] ([[User talk:73.233.156.49|talk]]) 16:56, 25 June 2016 (UTC)&lt;/small&gt;&lt;!-- Template:Unsigned IP --&gt; &lt;!--Autosigned by SineBot--&gt;<br /> <br /> *'''Strong No'''. Need definite proof first. Unless declaring war and invading countries without evidence is back in vogue. &lt;small&gt;— [[User:2602:306:ce95:57b0:549d:5e23:e8eb:3703|2602:306:ce95:57b0:549d:5e23:e8eb:3703]] ([[User talk:2602:306:ce95:57b0:549d:5e23:e8eb:3703|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/2602:306:ce95:57b0:549d:5e23:e8eb:3703|contribs]]) has made [[Wikipedia:Single-purpose account|few or no other edits]] outside this topic. The preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment was added at 00:33, 25 June 2016‎ (UTC) (UTC).&lt;/small&gt;<br /> ::How much stronger evidence could there be than from the perpetrator's own lips?[[User:Dansan99|Dansan99]] ([[User talk:Dansan99|talk]]) 00:42, 25 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> *'''Strong Yes'''. I don't understand the argument that he may have had multiple motivations for the attack precluding the attack from being listed here; as long as one of the motivations was Islamist, then it ought to be included on this list and it certainly appears to be the main, if not only, motivation. I also don't see pledging allegiance to conflicting groups as an issue either since they are all, bottom line, Islamist groups or individuals. --[[User:Local hero|&lt;font color=&quot;blue&quot;&gt;Local hero&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Local hero|&lt;font color=&quot;dark yellow&quot;&gt;talk&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; 17:34, 25 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> *'''No'''. There is evidence that Mateen had pledged allegiance to both ISIS and Hezbollah, two groups which happen to be fighting against each other in the [[Syrian Civil War]]. His political and religious ideologies are confused, and his motivations for the shooting remain unclear as established by reliable sources. OT, how long is this article going to get before it gets broken up? &lt;&gt; [[User:Alt lys er svunnet hen|Alt lys er svunnet hen]] ([[User talk:Alt lys er svunnet hen|talk]]) 04:25, 27 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> *'''No'''. Needs to be stated in a source, rather than rumoured, for inclusion. [[Special:Contributions/PeterTheFourth|PeterTheFourth]] ([[User Talk:PeterTheFourth|talk]]) 12:40, 27 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::Here are sourced facts Omar Mateen pledged allegence to ISIS on the telephone and internet https://www.fbi.gov/tampa/press-releases/2016/investigative-update-regarding-pulse-nightclub-shooting. Mateen told his victims he was doing it to stop US bombing in Afghanistan/ISIL http://www.democracynow.org/2016/6/15/headlines/orlando_survivor_says_shooter_wanted_us_to_stop_bombing_afghanistan and he told police on the telephone he was doing it to stop US bombing in Afghanistan/ISIL http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-06-15/orlando-gunman-wanted-to-stop-us-bombing-afghanistan/7511586 and he posted the same motivations on facebook while the crime was in progress http://www.thehindu.com/news/international/stop-bombing-is-mateen-wrote-on-facebook/article8737808.ece. Official investigators and other press outlets discount gay revenge story http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-orlando-gay-fbi-20160623-snap-story.html, http://www.rollingstone.com/culture/news/authorities-no-evidence-orlando-shooter-omar-mateen-was-gay-20160624 [[User:Mrdthree|Mrdthree]] ([[User talk:Mrdthree|talk]]) 21:48, 28 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> *'''Of Course, YES''' - It would take some very strange reasoning not to include it. One of the reasons was radical Islamic belief. This is a slam dunk. [[User:Fyunck(click)|Fyunck(click)]] ([[User talk:Fyunck(click)|talk]]) 21:59, 28 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> *'''Definite Yes''' Same as San Bernardino, radicalized natural born turned Islamic homophobic terrorist. The FBI says claims he was gay are considered unsubstantiated. I don't care what nonsense Obama says about it and gun control, it's terrorism pure and simple especially considering his administration's been trying to scrub this fact from history as to partially censer recording of the calls the terrorist made. This shouldn't be up for debate when he's a Muslim extremist who has pledged allegiance to terrorist groups and states the political motive for the terrorist act.[[User:ShadowDragon343|ShadowDragon343]] ([[User talk:ShadowDragon343|talk]]) 13:04, 29 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> * '''Strong yes'''. It's absurd to armchair-quarterback Mateen's exact motivations, and claim that because there were more than one, he was not at least partially motivated by his religious views. In such cases, we should err on the side of what &lt;i&gt;the perpetrator's own stated motivation&lt;/i&gt; was. And with making decisions that involve suicide, religious views are typically a stronger motivating factor than others (how much more likely is someone to die for the promise of an afterlife than they are because they're conflicted about their sexuality?!) I've no doubt that at least some of the 9/11 attackers had multiple reasons for their involvement, but there's sufficient evidence that they were at least significantly motivated by their religious views. So too with Mateen. This comment is particularly absurd: &quot;&lt;i&gt;There is evidence that Mateen had pledged allegiance to both ISIS and Hezbollah, two groups which happen to be fighting against each other in the Syrian Civil War&lt;/i&gt;&quot;. And what is the commonality among ISIL and Hezbollah? &lt;u&gt;They're both Islamist groups&lt;/u&gt;. It's as ridiculous as claiming that because Osama bin Laden was Sunni Muslim who denounced Shiites, that he wasn't really an Islamist, because Shiites and Sunnis -- the two main sects of Islam -- are frequently in conflict. [[User:Bricology|Bricology]] ([[User talk:Bricology|talk]]) 19:24, 29 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :And I would add that it's irrelevant whether or not Mateen was directed by, authorized by, trained by or in any other way directly involved with, any outside group. One doesn't need any external influences to be to kill because of their religious views. It's straightforward enough to find motivation from the ideology itself. [[User:Bricology|Bricology]] ([[User talk:Bricology|talk]]) 19:40, 29 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> * '''NO. At least until confirmed by RS''' Most of !votes are are making arguments based on OR. It is basic policy that Wikipedia doesn't include material unless backed by multiple RS. The pertinent question is, do [[WP:RS|reliable sources]] commonly refer to this incident as a terrorist attack? If they do, then include it, if they don't then do not. Browsing news paper reports, it appears that they refer to it as the &quot;Orlando shooting&quot; or &quot;Orlando attack&quot;, but not as &quot;Orlando terrorism&quot; or &quot;Orlando terrorist attack&quot;. [[User:Lawrencekhoo|LK]] ([[User talk:Lawrencekhoo|talk]]) 02:49, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> *:You've noticed that this list is only for &lt;u&gt;Islamic&lt;/u&gt; terrorist attacks? There are other types of terrorism. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you just misspoke. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#AAA;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 04:26, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> *:: This makes my point even stronger. No RS has named the incident an &lt;u&gt;Islamic&lt;/u&gt; terrorist attack. [[User:Lawrencekhoo|LK]] ([[User talk:Lawrencekhoo|talk]]) 09:26, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> * '''Strong Yes''' The man himself stated what his motivations were. ISIS claimed credit. All other criteria are met. [[User:Evan1975|Evan1975]] ([[User talk:Evan1975|talk]]) 14:21, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> * '''Strong Yes''' I understand that points that this man may have been mentally ill and that this attack was not ''directed'' by ISIS, but those points are not relevant. ISIS intentionally targets those who are mentally ill, ISIS intentionally does not direct attacks in the United States where their communications can be intercepted, and ISIS intentionally congratulates and endorses lone gunman (or pairs/small groups) who attack in the United States. They intentionally release guides and propaganda encouraging these attacks to take place. Almost all Islamist terrorist attacks in the United States follow this same pattern. As far as a 'lack' of RS, the United States government has a vested interest in portraying ISIS as an organization with no physical presense in the United States and no support among American citizens and residents. The USA media protects the interests of the USA government. I don't think this is 'conspiratorial nonsense'. I would prefer if WP remained independent and did not become another arm of the USA propaganda machine. [[User:Brianbleakley|Brianbleakley]] ([[User talk:Brianbleakley|talk]]) 14:41, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> * '''Strong Yes''': The list says &quot;list of Islamist terrorist attacks,&quot; not &quot;list of terrorist attacks perpetrated by Islamic terrorist organizations.&quot; Omar Mateen was Islamic, he committed a terror attack, therefore the Orlando shooting was a terror attack by an Islamist. [[User:Vektor00|Vektor00]] ([[User talk:Vektor00|talk]]) 15:08, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> * '''Strong Yes''': Of course yes. It's not up to Wikipedia editors to figure out how they can twist the facts around to somehow conclude that there's not clear evidence it was a terror attack. If there's significant doubt (which I don't think there is) you can at least say that it's *widely claimed* to be a terror attack by [huge list of news organizations around the world whom have reported it as such.] I don't think that's even necessary, however. He was a Muslim and committed an Islamic-motivated act of terror by even the most stringent definition of the word. [[User:100DashSix|100DashSix]] ([[User talk:100DashSix|talk]]) 15:18, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::{{User:EvergreenFir/Zombie|100DashSix|2 years}} [[User:EvergreenFir|'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:#8b00ff;&quot;&gt;Eve&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#6528c2;&quot;&gt;rgr&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#3f5184;&quot;&gt;een&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#197947;&quot;&gt;Fir&lt;/span&gt;''']] [[User talk:EvergreenFir|(talk)]] &lt;small&gt;Please &amp;#123;&amp;#123;[[Template:re|re]]&amp;#125;&amp;#125;&lt;/small&gt; 00:17, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> * '''Strong yes''': Claims from the horses-mouth said are that he did it in accordance to his allegiance with ISIS and ISIS took credit. I don't care how prestigious and important a person's title is. Any third party investigators wanting to make sense of the attackers motivations, while ignoring statements made by the attacker, might as well just go home and twiddle their thumbs because they're doing nothing but wasting time.[[User:The Armchair General|The Armchair General]] ([[User talk:The Armchair General|talk]]) 15:27, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> * '''Strong yes''': He pledged allegiance to ISIS and Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, stated he was acting according to the will of Allah, and ISIS itself has claimed credit for the attack. Citations are too numerous to count. If this isn't an Islamic terror attack, nothing is. wikipedia's systemic bias is on full display in this ridiculous discussion. [[User:Jennyriarchi|Jennyriarchi]] ([[User talk:Jennyriarchi|talk]]) 15:41, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> * '''Comment''': Since this is picking up [http://www.breitbart.com/tech/2016/06/30/wikipedia-removes-orlando-shooting-islamist-terror-attack-list/ media coverage on Breitbart.com] and [[User:MrX]] is getting criticized, let's look at what happened. During the hostage situation, Omar Mateen called 911 and made a [[Bay'ah]] (pledge of allegiance) to ISIL. This isn't in dispute, and it has appeared in numerous reliable sources. What is in dispute is whether anyone in ISIL had ever heard of Mateen prior to the attack, which now seems unlikely. Mateen's knowledge of radical Islamic ideology seems to have been acquired from websites and was thin and confused at best. Investigators have moved away from the theory that this was a planned attack by a terrorist organization, such as the Bataclan theater attack in Paris in November 2015.--'''''[[User:ianmacm|&lt;span style=&quot;background:#88b;color:#cff;font-variant:small-caps&quot;&gt;♦Ian&lt;span style=&quot;background:#99c&quot;&gt;Ma&lt;span style=&quot;background:#aad&quot;&gt;c&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;M♦&lt;/span&gt;]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:ianmacm|(talk to me)]]&lt;/sup&gt;''''' 15:52, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :*And that lends to a YES. Nobody is saying that the attack was an ISIS attack, just that this attack was an Islamist terror attack. [[User:Sir Joseph|Sir Joseph]] &lt;sup&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;Green&quot;&gt;[[User_talk:Sir Joseph|(talk)]]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/sup&gt; 16:02, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :*I don't think the your second point is actually in dispute. No one is suggesting that ISIS had prior knowledge of this attack, or that it was planned in any way by ISIS. [[User:Brianbleakley|Brianbleakley]] ([[User talk:Brianbleakley|talk]]) 16:06, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :*What difference would it make if ISIL didn't know about him? How does that make it *not* a terrorist attack committed by an Islamist? [[User:Vektor00|Vektor00]] ([[User talk:Vektor00|talk]]) 16:18, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> * '''Yes.''' Regardless of Mateen's formal affiliation with any Islamist groups, during hostage negotiations he described himself as a &quot;soldier of Islam.&quot; If Wikipedia wants to define &quot;Islamist&quot; to not mean all &quot;Islamist extremists&quot;, as it currently is, then fine, but Mateen was an extremist acting in the name of Islam (regardless of what his &quot;true&quot; motivations were). [[User:JoshuaKGarner|Joshua Garner]] ([[User talk:JoshuaKGarner|talk]]) 16:39, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> * ''''Yes.'''' One does not need a &quot;Soldier Of Allah&quot; card in order to be a jihadist. The probable fact that he was self-deployed rather than formally allied with ISIL does not lessen the Islamist aspect of his act of terrorism. [[User:The Sanity Inspector|The Sanity Inspector]] ([[User talk:The Sanity Inspector|talk]]) 16:48, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> * '''Yes''': Strong support in sources. Attempts to introduce the spurious standard of affiliation with and/or direction from a recognized terrorist organization is OR, and disingenuous. [[User:D.Creish|D.Creish]] ([[User talk:D.Creish|talk]]) 17:04, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> * ''''Yes.'''' Agreeing with all above &quot;yes&quot; reasons while also mentioning that the FBI has found no evidence Mateen was gay. http://www.nola.com/crime/index.ssf/2016/06/orlando_shooter_gay_omar_matee.html &lt;!-- Template:Unsigned --&gt;&lt;small&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—&amp;nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Marquis de Faux |Marquis de Faux ]] ([[User talk:Marquis de Faux |talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Marquis de Faux |contribs]]) 17:15, 30 June 2016&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/small&gt;<br /> *'''Strong Yes.''': He declared his support for ISIS during the attack. Quote from Mateen: &quot;“America and Russia stop bombing the Islamic state..I pledge my alliance to [Islamic State leader] abu bakr al Baghdadi ..may Allah accept me,” -- No evidence found that he was even gay. https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/investigation-into-orlando-shooting-continues-no-impending-charges-expected/2016/06/15/c3eccf5e-3333-11e6-8758-d58e76e11b12_story.html<br /> *'''Yes''' That the shooter may have had other motivations does not outweigh explicit declarations of allegiance to Islamist causes committed in an act of terror. The debate about whether the incident was a hate crime or terrorism strikes me as rather silly—it's quite clearly both. --[[User:BDD|BDD]] ([[User talk:BDD|talk]]) 17:34, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> * ''''Yes.'''' Given all information available from media and police sources, refusal to include this attack in the list is highly suspect, and reduces confidence in the impartiality of the site. Thou doth protest too much. [[User:Tim Riches|Tim Riches, Mississauga, Ontario]] ([[User talk:Tim Riches|talk]]) 17:39, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::{{User:EvergreenFir/Zombie|Tim Riches|7 months}} [[User:EvergreenFir|'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:#8b00ff;&quot;&gt;Eve&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#6528c2;&quot;&gt;rgr&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#3f5184;&quot;&gt;een&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#197947;&quot;&gt;Fir&lt;/span&gt;''']] [[User talk:EvergreenFir|(talk)]] &lt;small&gt;Please &amp;#123;&amp;#123;[[Template:re|re]]&amp;#125;&amp;#125;&lt;/small&gt; 00:23, 1 July 2016 (UTC) <br /> * ''''Emphatic Yes'''' This was clearly an attack motivated by and perpetrated by a fundamentalist Islamic agenda. If its in line with true Islamic beliefs or not, if it was coordinated with ISIS/ISIL/Daesh are irrelevant, Mateen believed he was acting within those confines. [[User:AdamJacobMuller|AdamJacobMuller]] ([[User talk:AdamJacobMuller|talk]]) 18:22, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::{{User:EvergreenFir/Zombie|AdamJacobMuller|4 years 10 months}} [[User:EvergreenFir|'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:#8b00ff;&quot;&gt;Eve&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#6528c2;&quot;&gt;rgr&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#3f5184;&quot;&gt;een&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#197947;&quot;&gt;Fir&lt;/span&gt;''']] [[User talk:EvergreenFir|(talk)]] &lt;small&gt;Please &amp;#123;&amp;#123;[[Template:re|re]]&amp;#125;&amp;#125;&lt;/small&gt; 00:23, 1 July 2016 (UTC) <br /> :::: Not sure if this is just an automated bot, or whatever, but I'm obviously not a sock-puppet. I have a long history on Wikipedia (much longer than my absence which is primarily due to simply not having time to edit wikipedia anymore) and I obviously continue to use it extensively just not editing anymore. Moreover I'm using my real name for my account. I simply saw this issue and felt it was important enough to comment on as I would like Wikipedia to continue to be an agenda-free source of information. [[User:AdamJacobMuller|AdamJacobMuller]] ([[User talk:AdamJacobMuller|talk]]) 03:44, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> * '''Strong yes''' Until more evidence is released it is impossible to say whether this was an ISIL attack directed by the organization, however it is beyond doubt that, given the released statements made by the shooter during the attack, this was motivated by Islamism. The [[Charleston church shooting]] is currently in the category ''White supremacy in the United States'' despite the perpetrator having had no formal links to white supremacist groups. The motive was determined via consulting his manifesto and circumstantial evidence about which websites he had visited. The article itself features statements that cast doubt over the white supremacist element of the attack -- ''&quot;I don't think the church was his primary target because he told us he was going for the school. But I think he couldn't get into the school because of the security ... so I think he just settled for the church.&quot;'' Mateen's manifesto was transmitted via phone calls and the transcript features numerous mentions of Islamism and ideas frequently expressed by groups that are clearly Islamist. He then pledges allegiance to ISIL, a group that is widely recognized as committing violence in the name of its heretical brand of Islam. If we're going to cast aspersions over one manifesto, then it would only seem unbiased to call the motive on the other attack suspect, too. As far as I am aware, the assailant knows the motive for his own attack and in this case the authorities themselves have released evidence that Mateen's motive was Islamist in nature. --[[User:Toomanyaccountsargh|Toomanyaccountsargh]] ([[User talk:Toomanyaccountsargh|talk]]) 18:54, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> * ''''Yes'''' Back in 2013 he made inflammatory comments about radical islam to his colleagues. http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/orlando-nightclub-massacre/terror-hate-what-motivated-orlando-nightclub-shooter-n590496 [[User:Fangfufu|Fangfufu]] ([[User talk:Fangfufu|talk]]) 18:56, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> * ''''Strong Yes'''' A man claims to be an Islamic soldier. Kills people while claiming his support for Islamic terrorist groups. Somehow this isn't islamic terrorism. What the absolute hell is wrong with the world when you look at a duck and call it a chicken? [[User:Sethyre|Sethyre]] ([[User talk:Sethyre|talk]]) 19:03, 30 June 2016 (UTC) <br /> * '''Yes''' Even IF the shooter also had homophobic motives, does NOT suddenly make his public allegiance to ISIS void. The simple fact is that he claimed a clear as can be a connection to an Islamic terrorist group, and that that group also acknowledged him as 'one of theirs'. It is bizarre that some Wikipedians are trying to fall back on 'no reliable sources', when everyone knows full well that it is purely a matter of time before 'reliable sources' will acknowledge that this fits the criteria for a Islamist terrorist attack. The fact that this attack could also fit the criteria for a different kind of (lone wolf) terrorism does not matter one bit. It does not suddenly invalidate the ISIS connections. It simply makes the situation more complex. But it HAS to be listed as an Islamist terrorist attack as well. [[User:Omegastar|Omegastar]] ([[User talk:Omegastar|talk]]) 19:35, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> * '''Strong Yes''' There is insufficient evidence to state that it was an ISIS attack, but there is sufficient evidence to state it was an Islamist terrorist attack. The shooter specifically stated on a 911 call during the shootings that he pledged allegiance to Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi of the Islamic State, and made multiple other references to Islam. [[User:Patpend|Patpend]] ([[User talk:Patpend|talk]]) 19:42, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::{{User:EvergreenFir/Zombie|Patpend|6 months}} [[User:EvergreenFir|'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:#8b00ff;&quot;&gt;Eve&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#6528c2;&quot;&gt;rgr&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#3f5184;&quot;&gt;een&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#197947;&quot;&gt;Fir&lt;/span&gt;''']] [[User talk:EvergreenFir|(talk)]] &lt;small&gt;Please &amp;#123;&amp;#123;[[Template:re|re]]&amp;#125;&amp;#125;&lt;/small&gt; 00:23, 1 July 2016 (UTC) <br /> * '''Strong yes''': The attacker swore his allegiance to the [[Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant|Islamic State]]. There is little doubt, based on [[RS]]-provided evidence, that he had some sort of religious-linked political motivations. However, these doubts are not relevant to the criteria outlined for this article. [[User:NuclearWizard|Nuke]] ([[User talk:NuclearWizard|talk]]) 19:50, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> * '''Yes''' for reasons stated by others. Mateen declared Islamic motives and whether he was motivated by homophobia and/or self-hatred is ultimately irrelevant. --[[User:DrCruse|DrCruse]] ([[User talk:DrCruse|talk]]) 19:54, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> *''''Strong Yes'''' There has been no evidence of homosexual tendencies by Omar Mateen. The FBI has said that it has found nothing to show that Mateen was on gay dating apps with any of the 20 email addresses they had for him and consider the claim of a man having participated in homosexual activities with Mateen to not be credible. That combined with his pledge of allegiance to ISIS should be enough. If the shooter had called the police and and said he was Napoleon, obviously no one would blame the French, but if the shooter had pledged his allegiance to Hitler's ideals or said he was committing these acts in the name of God there would be no dispute of whether or not the attack was a white supremacist or a Christian extremist attack, respectively. We wouldn't say that we have to prove he was either a member of the SS or a Catholic priest in order to call it what it is. Why is Islamic extremism treated differently? &lt;ref&gt;http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/26/us/was-the-orlando-gunman-gay-the-answer-continues-to-elude-the-fbi.html?_r=0&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-orlando-gay-fbi-20160623-snap-story.html&lt;/ref&gt;<br /> * '''Strong Yes''': Wikipedia is not a place to argue what should be included in history, it is to document it. The attacker was Islamic and this was a terrorist attack. It passes the logic of being an Islamist terrorist attack at face value. I count at least 20 other attacks done by similar &quot;lone&quot; attackers on this list that do not have definite ties to a RS approved Islamist Terrorist organization. If this attack is not included, editors MUST remove those other attacks. Which is obviously obsurd. The fact that there is this much discussion is a reminder to the Wikipedia community that it is under attack by bad actors trying to rewrite history. We can not stand for this as unbiased editors. [[User:Iksnyrk|Iksnyrk]] ([[User talk:Iksnyrk|talk]]) 20:03, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> *'''Obvious Yes''' The sourcing is quite clear. [[User:Arkon|Arkon]] ([[User talk:Arkon|talk]]) 20:06, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> * '''Strong Yes''': I am disappointed by some of the arguments here from what sound like very smart people. The list is titled &quot;List of Islamist terrorist attacks,&quot; not &quot;List of ISIL terrorist attacks.&quot; Similarly, when you look at Christian terrorism like the Wisconsin Sikh Temple massacre, I would label it as such even though the Catholic Church or Southern Baptist Convention or the United Methodist Church neither ordered nor condoned the attacks. No religion can boast a perfect record, and as such, each needs to be called out on the issues when an attack is inspired by its ideology. True, homophobia was clearly a factor in Mateen's motive; each Abrahamic faith condemns homosexuality to some degree of another (Leviticus 20:13, Abu Dawud 4462). Furthermore, as a Christian, I see the church constantly struggle with these matters, as I have wrestled them in my own mind as well. Mateen is definitively a virulent homophobe according to his father's words; however, he was also driven by an ideology that necessitates the killing of homosexuals, among other groups. Many other arguments of mine have been enumerated here, and as such I will conclude by saying this: when we refuse to call an apple an apple, we run the risk of permitting what Orwell termed &quot;the ministry of truth.&quot; [[User:Jrcoyne99|Jrcoyne99]] ([[User talk:Jrcoyne99|talk]]) 20:07, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::{{spa|Jrcoyne99}} [[User:EvergreenFir|'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:#8b00ff;&quot;&gt;Eve&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#6528c2;&quot;&gt;rgr&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#3f5184;&quot;&gt;een&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#197947;&quot;&gt;Fir&lt;/span&gt;''']] [[User talk:EvergreenFir|(talk)]] &lt;small&gt;Please &amp;#123;&amp;#123;[[Template:re|re]]&amp;#125;&amp;#125;&lt;/small&gt; 00:17, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::: Just for the record, I have contributed to other articles before including historical topics, politics, and science fiction. I created an account specifically for this discussion. Also, someone's argument or point of view is not invalidated simply because expressing it is their first acti or one of few on the platform. It's just that for some of us this is an important matter. [[User:Jrcoyne99|Jrcoyne99]] ([[User talk:Jrcoyne99|talk]]) 02:27, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> * '''Yes''' For reasons already stated above. &lt;span style=&quot;background:#FF0000;font-type Monotype Corsiva&quot;&gt;[[User:Tills|&lt;font color=&quot;#FFFFFF&quot;&gt;Tills&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;background:#0000FF;font: Monotype Corsiva&quot;&gt;[[User_talk:Tills|&lt;font color=&quot;#FFFFFF&quot;&gt;Talk&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 20:25, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::{{User:EvergreenFir/Zombie|Tills|11 months}} [[User:EvergreenFir|'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:#8b00ff;&quot;&gt;Eve&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#6528c2;&quot;&gt;rgr&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#3f5184;&quot;&gt;een&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#197947;&quot;&gt;Fir&lt;/span&gt;''']] [[User talk:EvergreenFir|(talk)]] &lt;small&gt;Please &amp;#123;&amp;#123;[[Template:re|re]]&amp;#125;&amp;#125;&lt;/small&gt; 00:17, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::So what's the purpose for posting this? Is my opinion not relevant since I'm no longer an active editor? &lt;span style=&quot;background:#FF0000;font-type Monotype Corsiva&quot;&gt;[[User:Tills|&lt;font color=&quot;#FFFFFF&quot;&gt;Tills&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;background:#0000FF;font: Monotype Corsiva&quot;&gt;[[User_talk:Tills|&lt;font color=&quot;#FFFFFF&quot;&gt;Talk&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 05:56, 1 July 2016 (UTC) <br /> :::::It's the same as marking [[WP:SPA]]s. Given the canvassing occurring via Breitbart, such info can be useful to the closing admin when considering comments. [[User:EvergreenFir|'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:#8b00ff;&quot;&gt;Eve&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#6528c2;&quot;&gt;rgr&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#3f5184;&quot;&gt;een&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#197947;&quot;&gt;Fir&lt;/span&gt;''']] [[User talk:EvergreenFir|(talk)]] &lt;small&gt;Please &amp;#123;&amp;#123;[[Template:re|re]]&amp;#125;&amp;#125;&lt;/small&gt; 06:01, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> * '''Yes''' The list consist of terror attacks committed by Islamic extremists. Omar was an Islamic extremist, so surely the event should be added to the list. [[User:CoverMyIP|CoverMyIP]] ([[User talk:CoverMyIP|talk]]) 20:34, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::{{User:EvergreenFir/Zombie|CoverMyIP|8 months}} [[User:EvergreenFir|'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:#8b00ff;&quot;&gt;Eve&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#6528c2;&quot;&gt;rgr&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#3f5184;&quot;&gt;een&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#197947;&quot;&gt;Fir&lt;/span&gt;''']] [[User talk:EvergreenFir|(talk)]] &lt;small&gt;Please &amp;#123;&amp;#123;[[Template:re|re]]&amp;#125;&amp;#125;&lt;/small&gt; 00:17, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> * '''Strong Yes''' I believe the shooter himself qualifies as an RS, and he made his motivation for the attack clear in his public statements. It is not for us to second-guess his motivation. [[User:AlanSiegrist|AlanSiegrist]] ([[User talk:AlanSiegrist|talk]]) 20:54, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> * '''Strong Yes''': This clearly meets all criteria and there are countless sources. [[User:Singleiron|Singleiron]] ([[User talk:Singleiron|talk]]) 21:25, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::{{User:EvergreenFir/Zombie|Singleiron|7 months}} [[User:EvergreenFir|'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:#8b00ff;&quot;&gt;Eve&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#6528c2;&quot;&gt;rgr&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#3f5184;&quot;&gt;een&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#197947;&quot;&gt;Fir&lt;/span&gt;''']] [[User talk:EvergreenFir|(talk)]] &lt;small&gt;Please &amp;#123;&amp;#123;[[Template:re|re]]&amp;#125;&amp;#125;&lt;/small&gt; 00:23, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> * '''Yes''' - Meets the criteria for inclusion: It has been widely reported as a terrorist attack, the perpetrator [https://www.fbi.gov/tampa/press-releases/2016/investigative-update-regarding-pulse-nightclub-shooting identified himself as an Islamic soldier] to ''further a perceived Islamic religious or political cause'' (tell America to stop bombing Syria and Iraq and that is why he was “out here right now.”)--[[User:Isaidnoway|&lt;font face=&quot;Times New Roman&quot; color=&quot;blue&quot;&gt; '''''Isaidnoway''''' &lt;/font&gt;]][[User talk:Isaidnoway|&lt;font face=&quot;Times New Roman&quot; color=&quot;blue&quot;&gt;'''''(talk)'''''&lt;/font&gt;]] 21:26, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> *'''No'''. Imputing &quot;Islamic motivation&quot; to the Orlando shooter reminds me of the semi-hysterical tendency in the 1950s and 1960s to attribute all kinds of problems to Communist subversion. Comment below. ~ [[User:J. Johnson|J.&amp;nbsp;Johnson (JJ)]] ([[User_talk:J. Johnson#top|talk]]) 22:32, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> * '''Strong Yes''': I can't believe this is up for debate. Strong yes in agreement with all others' arguments. &lt;!-- Template:Unsigned --&gt;&lt;small&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—&amp;nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:24.164.94.198|24.164.94.198]] ([[User talk:24.164.94.198|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/24.164.94.198|contribs]]) &lt;/span&gt;&lt;/small&gt;<br /> * '''Yes''': We have multiple reliable sources which state that he pledged his allegiance to ISIS (an Islamist terrorist group) and mentioned the Boston Marathon bombers in a phone call to authorities. It was a terrorist attack, again as attested by multiple reliable sources, including the US government (President Obama himself called it such). It meets all the criteria for inclusion on this list. [[user:Titanium Dragon|&lt;span style=&quot;background-color:{{ trim | silver }}; color:{{ trim | }};&quot;&gt;{{ trim | '''Titanium Dragon''' }}&lt;/span&gt;]] ([[user talk:Titanium Dragon|talk]]) 23:40, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> *:{{ping|Titanium Dragon}} The title of this article is not [[List of terrorist attacks]]. If the US government or Obama have unequivocally labeled Orlando an Islamic terrorist attack, could you provide a link to that? &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#AAA;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 23:57, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> *::{{ping|Mandruss}}: &quot;So whatever the motivations of the killer, whatever influences led him down the path of violence and terror, whatever propaganda he was consuming from ISIL and al Qaeda, this was an act of terrorism but it was also an act of hate.&quot; Per [http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2016/06/19/lynch_partial_transcript_of_orlando_911_calls_will_have_references_to_isis_cut_out.html]. Obama does not use the term Islamist in relation to ISIS/ISIL/Islamic State or Al Qaeda for propaganda reasons, as he has noted previously: &quot;We are not at war with Islam. We are at war with people who have perverted Islam,&quot; Obama said during remarks at a summit on combating violent extremism in February. &quot;These terrorists are desperate for legitimacy. And all of us have a responsibility to refute the notion that groups like ISIL somehow represent Islam, because that is a falsehood that embraces the terrorist narrative.&quot; Per [http://www.cnn.com/2016/06/13/politics/islamic-terrorism-trump-obama-clinton/]. However, ISIS and Al Qaeda are undoubtedly Islamist groups, and are defined as such by Wikipedia and innumerable sources, and he himself acknowledges it as a perversion of Islam. Given that the perpetrator declared his allegiance to the Islamic State, and the attacks were driven by his Islamist beliefs, as supported by many sources provided, including the FBI's own transcript of the call, there's really no room for doubt from the RSs. [[user:Titanium Dragon|&lt;span style=&quot;background-color:{{ trim | silver }}; color:{{ trim | }};&quot;&gt;{{ trim | '''Titanium Dragon''' }}&lt;/span&gt;]] ([[user talk:Titanium Dragon|talk]]) 01:56, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> * '''Strong Yes''' The FBI, CNN, and CBS all stated the same thing. End of discussion. [[User:R00b07|R00b07]] ([[User talk:R00b07|talk]]) 23:42, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> *'''Yes''' Mateen clearly was an Islamist terrorist and stated as much in his 911 call. His support of other islamist terror is well established in reliable sources. His association with ISIL is more questionable but his islamist terror connection is not. Self-radicalized terrorism is still terrorism. --[[User:DHeyward|DHeyward]] ([[User talk:DHeyward|talk]]) 23:50, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> *'''No'''. Maybe he was gay. Maybe he was just a schizophrenic who escaped everyone's notice until it was too late. Maybe he actually was a jihadist. But on something this raw, something so high-profile, something being used as political ammunition so readily by non-victims, it seems imprudent to slap an &quot;Islamist terrorist attack&quot; tag on it and call it a day when errors in reporting tend to be accompanied by widely-ignored and slightly discreet retractions, if there are any at all. And since we are the 'de facto' source for so much of the English-speaking world, it is imperative that we make no mistake on the accuracy of this. There is no [[WP:DEADLINE]]. I urge that it be not added, as if it is added in error, more people stand to lose, to be hurt, to be discriminated against, than if it were to be added later, when the smoke has cleared and tempers cooled, without error, if at all. &lt;font face=&quot;#&quot; color=&quot;#35b794&quot;&gt;[[User:Dschslava|'''Dsch'''slava]]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;#3558b7&quot;&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contribs/Dschslava|'' Δx '']]&lt;/sup&gt;[[User talk:Dschslava|parlez moi]]&lt;/font&gt; 00:05, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> **Why stop with your speculation there? Maybe he was angry about the Treaty of Ghent, or the cancellation of Firefly. Who can say? If we're willing to go so far as to ignore the terrorist's ''own statements on the matter'', we might as well just make up anything we please. [[Special:Contributions/2601:602:9802:99B2:F1DB:D95B:C7B2:2EE0|2601:602:9802:99B2:F1DB:D95B:C7B2:2EE0]] ([[User talk:2601:602:9802:99B2:F1DB:D95B:C7B2:2EE0|talk]]) 04:55, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> **Then we should probably rename the page to &quot;List of Islamist terrorist attacks by clinically-sane heterosexuals.&quot; What difference does it make if he was gay or schizophrenic? He's still an Islamist, he still committed an act of terror, so doesn't that make the shooting an Islamist terror attack? The term &quot;Islamist terrorist attack&quot; is the most accurate term we could possibly use to describe this event, and it really seems like you're saying we should put a hypothetical person's feelings above factual accuracy. [[User:Vektor00|Vektor00]] ([[User talk:Vektor00|talk]]) 03:04, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::I'll reply to both of the IPs' comments here, for brevity's sake. I never said that it should never be added. I never said that it should either. The key part of my reasoning is {{tq|I urge that it be not added, as if it is added in error, more people stand to lose, to be hurt, to be discriminated against, than if it were to be added later, '''when the smoke has cleared and tempers cooled''', without error, if at all}}. Seeing as the markedly increased activity present in part caused by certain media attention is certainly not working in anyone's favor, I'm advising that we leave it alone for now and come back later when, say, all this furor has dissipated. To do otherwise could cause even more media attention, resulting in scores more flocking to this RfC with politically motivated reasons blatant and not-so-blatant, which is the exact opposite of what we want. Look at the problems that we are facing right now, in comparison. &lt;font face=&quot;#&quot; color=&quot;#35b794&quot;&gt;[[User:Dschslava|'''Dsch'''slava]]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;#3558b7&quot;&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contribs/Dschslava|'' Δx '']]&lt;/sup&gt;[[User talk:Dschslava|parlez moi]]&lt;/font&gt; 06:38, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::: &quot;I urge that it be not added, as if it is added in error, more people stand to lose, to be hurt, to be discriminated against, than if it were to be added later, when the smoke has cleared and tempers cooled&quot; The purpose of Wikipedia is not to eliminate discrimination or protect people's feelings, noble as those causes are; the purpose of Wikipedia is to disseminate accurate information. Whether or not such accurate information causes discrimination or hurt is completely irrelevant. [[Special:Contributions/2601:602:9802:99B2:F1DB:D95B:C7B2:2EE0|2601:602:9802:99B2:F1DB:D95B:C7B2:2EE0]] ([[User talk:2601:602:9802:99B2:F1DB:D95B:C7B2:2EE0|talk]]) 06:47, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::::I am fully aware of that. Perhaps I shouldn't have included that part; it's not really part of my argument anyways. The bolded part, however, is. This is a huge mess, and I have half a mind to file another ANI thread while at it. Who knows, maybe we'll all be dragged to ARBCOM. &lt;font face=&quot;#&quot; color=&quot;#35b794&quot;&gt;[[User:Dschslava|'''Dsch'''slava]]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;#3558b7&quot;&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contribs/Dschslava|'' Δx '']]&lt;/sup&gt;[[User talk:Dschslava|parlez moi]]&lt;/font&gt; 07:03, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> ** Since he pledged allegiance to ISIS, how about we look at that as a small, minor, potential motivation for killing 50 gay people? Maybe, just maybe? [[User:R00b07|R00b07]] ([[User talk:R00b07|talk]]) 00:23, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::{{u|Rb00b7}}, I'm very sure that I addressed that in my original !vote already. &lt;font face=&quot;#&quot; color=&quot;#35b794&quot;&gt;[[User:Dschslava|'''Dsch'''slava]]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;#3558b7&quot;&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contribs/Dschslava|'' Δx '']]&lt;/sup&gt;[[User talk:Dschslava|parlez moi]]&lt;/font&gt; 00:38, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::: Rb00b7? That is the most subtle insult ever. [[User:R00b07|R00b07]] ([[User talk:R00b07|talk]]) 01:43, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::::{{u|R00b07}}, I'm sorry. My eyes got crossed with those number-letter lookalikes. No harm intended. Actually, how about [[WP:AGF]], seeing as you espouse it so prominently on your userpage? &lt;font face=&quot;#&quot; color=&quot;#35b794&quot;&gt;[[User:Dschslava|'''Dsch'''slava]]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;#3558b7&quot;&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contribs/Dschslava|'' Δx '']]&lt;/sup&gt;[[User talk:Dschslava|parlez moi]]&lt;/font&gt; 04:59, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::::::: I was assuming Good Faith, just making a bad joke. Sorry [[User:R00b07|R00b07]] ([[User talk:R00b07|talk]]) 06:04, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> *'''Yes''' I can't believe we're even arguing this. --[[User:Harizotoh9|Harizotoh9]] ([[User talk:Harizotoh9|talk]]) 00:42, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> *'''Yes''' Mateen connected the attack to ISIS. (Of course there are also other dimensions.) [[User:Jason from nyc|Jason from nyc]] ([[User talk:Jason from nyc|talk]]) 02:08, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> *'''Yes''': I tend not to get involved in political arguments, as pop culture and other less-sensitive subjects are more my specialty. However, with the evidence available at the present time from credible sources, I find that it is fairly clear that the Orlando attack should be included in the list. Of course, Islamic terrorism may not have been the sole cause for the attack, but it certainly appears to have been an ingredient. --'''&lt;span style=&quot;background-color:white;color:#2929EE;&quot;&gt; Matthew&lt;/span&gt;''' - ([[User_talk:MatthewHoobin|talk]] · [[User:MatthewHoobin|userpage]] · [[Special:Contributions/MatthewHoobin|contributions]]) 05:49, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> * '''Strong Yes''': Not only do we have the killer's own statement, but cited sources from the FBI, CNN and a ton of other places that overwhelmingly qualify as WP:RS. This attack has more reliable sources supporting this claim than pretty much any other attack on this list. The fact that this is even up for debate is asinine and shows a ridiculous bias by some editors here seemingly desperate to defend the good name of Islamic terrorism. --[[User:TheTruthiness|TheTruthiness]] ([[User talk:TheTruthiness|talk]]) 07:55, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> * '''Strong Yes''': For reasons cited by others. Briefly, killer cited allegiance to ISIS but more importantly, but more importantly, the entity in question has an explicit policy of encouraging and inciting such individual actions and has, similarly, explicitly taken credit. [[User:Muldrake|Muldrake]] ([[User talk:Muldrake|talk]]) <br /> *'''Yes''' per sourced statements from FBI and others. Really a no brainer here. [[User:Mr Ernie|Mr Ernie]] ([[User talk:Mr Ernie|talk]]) 12:28, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> *'''Yes''' If the FBI and CNN says so. They are reliable sources. [[User:Supergodzilla2090|Supergodzilla2090]] ([[User talk:Supergodzilla2090|talk]]) 18:03, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ====Call for [[WP:SNOW]] close====<br /> Could someone (preferably someone with experience closing contentious RfCs and no strong feeling on the issue at hand) please apply [[WP:SNOW]] and close this RfC? --[[User:Guy Macon|Guy Macon]] ([[User talk:Guy Macon|talk]]) 22:46, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :There is no SNOW here. Articulate arguments have been made on both sides. &lt;s&gt;That said, consensus is not about numbers, and I can't imagine that there are any significant new arguments to be made, so I wouldn't oppose an early close.&lt;/s&gt; &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#AAA;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 22:54, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::Agree. {{U|Guy Macon}}, this got flooded by Breitbart readers. Just because a ton of people showed up today to !vote yes doesn't mean there's consensus. [[User:EvergreenFir|'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:#8b00ff;&quot;&gt;Eve&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#6528c2;&quot;&gt;rgr&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#3f5184;&quot;&gt;een&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#197947;&quot;&gt;Fir&lt;/span&gt;''']] [[User talk:EvergreenFir|(talk)]] &lt;small&gt;Please &amp;#123;&amp;#123;[[Template:re|re]]&amp;#125;&amp;#125;&lt;/small&gt; 23:18, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::(edit conflict) This is not a [[WP:SNOW]], and even less so because there are serious [[WP:CANVASSING]] issues raised by the Breitbart article, and the fact that this seems to have blown up with new and dormant accounts after it was published. <br /> ::I would oppose an early close. I don't care which way it goes, but I think it's a serious [[WP:POV]] issue to rush to a conclusion after another website makes a decision on what they think WP should say, and apparently sends a mob here. It's not going to be the end of the world if this sits for a day or two. [[User:Timothyjosephwood|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#a56d3f;font-family:Impact;&quot;&gt;Timothy&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#6f3800;font-family:Impact;&quot;&gt;Joseph&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#422501;font-family:Impact;&quot;&gt;Wood&lt;/span&gt;]] 23:23, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::Withdraw my non-opposition to early close, pending a resolution at [[Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard#More eyes on List of Islamist terrorist attacks]]. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#AAA;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 23:31, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :We don't run an RfC for 8 days, and then quickly close the RfC after multiple sleeper accounts have been canvased by a radical right wing blog. - [[user: MrX|Mr]][[user talk:MrX|X]] 23:30, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::Agreed. Just like we didn't close it even earlier when more of the radical left wings were saying no. We let it run it's course like most RfC's. [[User:Fyunck(click)|Fyunck(click)]] ([[User talk:Fyunck(click)|talk]]) 00:44, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::Staying open simply to accumulate more &quot;me too&quot; !votes is counter to the principle that consensus is not about numbers. If you can show evidence that a large number of &quot;radical left wing&quot; !votes are from single-purpose accounts solicited from off-wiki, please do. Barring that, you have presented a false equivalence. Anyway, if it's true that it's not about numbers, I don't know that the Breitbart invasion can do much damage. Hopefully the closer will have the wisdom to look beyond the numbers and, to the extent they consider them at all, will also look at the !voters' contribs. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#AAA;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 01:01, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::I'd say there's little hope in gauging a consensus until the sleepers go back to sleep. I wouldn't even bother arguing the point until tomorrow. Partisan arguments will only encourage those brought here for partisan reasons. [[User:Timothyjosephwood|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#a56d3f;font-family:Impact;&quot;&gt;Timothy&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#6f3800;font-family:Impact;&quot;&gt;Joseph&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#422501;font-family:Impact;&quot;&gt;Wood&lt;/span&gt;]] 01:44, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::::::Those that are here for partisan reasons were here before the article even came out. In my opinion, that's why the articles were written in the first place. [[User:R00b07|R00b07]] ([[User talk:R00b07|talk]]) 01:48, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::::The accounts you dismiss as &quot;sleepers&quot; appear to be more cognizant—or more able to find sources for their arguments—than many of the no voters, who have relied upon now superseded evidence about &quot;gay lovers&quot; and a particularly bizarre argument about aliens. That users are attempting to blithely dismiss the ''yes'' cohort as &quot;canvased by radical right wing blog&quot; seems to suggest a number of accounts on the ''no'' side have an agenda just as transparent. As far as I'm concerned, any doubts over motive could have been mentioned in the description of the attack, and if the no vote succeeds then there will appear to be a false consensus, which will be argued over endlessly by users citing a significant number of quality sources to support the inclusion of the attack. --[[User:Toomanyaccountsargh|Toomanyaccountsargh]] ([[User talk:Toomanyaccountsargh|talk]]) 05:49, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::::It's funny you should mention that; I took the time to go back through the entire RFC (and indeed this talk page X_x) to examine the argument from the side of the nays - and except for some quotes from MrX in an early statement above there actually isn't a single linked piece of evidence from any RS to rebut the statement &quot;The Orlando shooting was a terrorist display of Islamic Fundamentalism.&quot; The quotes from MrX are wrong in twofold; one from early in the case when information was scarce and motivation unclear, and another stating that Mateen was not a full member of a terror organization - which while apparently true does not mean this wasn't a Islamist terror attack (you don't need to join ISIL to kill for Islam). Every single other argument I can find is either completely OR or a statement of neutrality or confusion over motivations, quote possibly due to editors not having read the new official FBI information. Just to sum this up cogently; there isn't a single Wiki-essentials based argument as to the nays here, and very much many for the ayes with all the requisite sources and weight. EDIT: Or rather, no '''new''' information to rebut the ayes. There's plenty of older articles and sources that ponder and report on several rumors and fallacies that have been stated officially by the FBI as false as of this point, which I don't feel bear repeating or applying due to the new given information - unless someone wants to make a case that the original rumor mills are more reliable and weighty then the recent official FBI releases and the news coverage thereof? [[Special:Contributions/69.114.53.16|69.114.53.16]] ([[User talk:69.114.53.16|talk]]) 06:22, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> There is only one way this RfC is going to turn out. Better to cut the drama and close it right now. Even if you remove the &quot;sleepers&quot;, there are plenty of other Yes votes. [[User:Kingsindian|Kingsindian]]&amp;nbsp;[[User Talk: Kingsindian|&amp;#9821;]]&amp;nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Kingsindian|&amp;#9818;]] 07:18, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> :There is a risk that following Breitbart getting its panties in a bunch over this, the article is going to exactly what Omar Mateen wanted, which is to describe the work of a deranged loner who wanted attention as an Islamic terrorist attack.--'''''[[User:ianmacm|&lt;span style=&quot;background:#88b;color:#cff;font-variant:small-caps&quot;&gt;♦Ian&lt;span style=&quot;background:#99c&quot;&gt;Ma&lt;span style=&quot;background:#aad&quot;&gt;c&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;M♦&lt;/span&gt;]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:ianmacm|(talk to me)]]&lt;/sup&gt;''''' 07:24, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::See, I have a problem with that reasoning - it's completely unsubstantiated OR. There's no problem with editors believing that, but that's not a Wiki-appropriate argument towards nay (though it's been repeated a few times). Mateen himself, the FBI, news organizations reporting on the FBI findings and plenty of talking head quotes all agree that this was indeed an Islamist terrorist attack. Even regardless of whether or not Mateen wanted it as such, it still clearly fulfills those stipulations both as an event and as a Wikipedia article that should be listed here, due to weight and sources. It's been great that people were protecting this page when everything was fuzzy as I said below (this is 69.114.53.16, bit the bullet made an account) but clearly things have changed. To continue and deny this to be listed as an Islamist attack without several supporting RS's - following the new information beyond the rumor mills - would be very strange, in my opinion. [[User:SpeakerOfReason|SpeakerOfReason]] ([[User talk:SpeakerOfReason|talk]]) 07:38, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::As I've said over at [[Talk:2016 Orlando nightclub shooting]], many people are making the assumption that Mateen was of sound mind when he carried out the attack. He may or may not have been legally insane, but there are numerous reports that he was mentally unstable and had expressed hatred of gays etc. This makes the motive less clear cut than a straightforward terrorist attack. The problem with categories and lists is that they do not allow for any nuances and end up with a [[false dichotomy]] (black/white, yes/no) when things are more complicated than this simplistic version.--'''''[[User:ianmacm|&lt;span style=&quot;background:#88b;color:#cff;font-variant:small-caps&quot;&gt;♦Ian&lt;span style=&quot;background:#99c&quot;&gt;Ma&lt;span style=&quot;background:#aad&quot;&gt;c&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;M♦&lt;/span&gt;]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:ianmacm|(talk to me)]]&lt;/sup&gt;''''' 07:42, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::And I completely agree with everything you just said personally; the dismantling of our mental health care system and the silence of America on the topic is horrendous as a general point of information - but that doesn't apply to Wikipedia. I'm of the opinion that anyone who decides to bomb/shoot a crowd of people is most definitely not of sound mind; but not being all there mentally doesn't mean he wasn't doing it for Islam as well. Having mental health issues and being a terrorist aren't mutually exclusive, and while reports speaking of his mental health are also important information there's a huge amount of weight of sources also claiming as fact that he was an Islamist terrorist. Almost nothing in life is straightforward, and the same could be said about any bomber/shooter on this list as well as Mateen. None of this precludes the Orlando shooting from being added to this list, and anyone who reads that article (whether found through the list or otherwise) will be able to attain the more detailed information that surrounds it. Speaking of working on the Orlando article, I don't know if the sources quoted all around were actually taken from the Orlando page or if they're new but all the stuff linked around would be helpful to mine for it, if they weren't there already - just in case anyone was interested and hadn't considered it. [[User:SpeakerOfReason|SpeakerOfReason]] ([[User talk:SpeakerOfReason|talk]]) 07:56, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::While RS is essential, it is not everything. [[WP:ONUS]]: ''While information must be verifiable in order to be included in an article, this does not mean that all verifiable information must be included in an article. Consensus may determine that certain information does not improve an article, and that it should be omitted or presented instead in a different article.'' I'd suggest that the yeas stop implying that nays, established editors in good standing, are policy-ignorant bozos and/or POV zealots. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#AAA;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 07:57, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::No, I've totally been on your side in regards to protecting the article (and never did/meant to call anyone a POV zealot - unless you aren't referring to me?), but things have changed with more recent information - specifically the FBI statements and news/talking head coverage of. [[WP:DUE]] and [[WP:WEIGHT]], and I'd say the weight of discussion here and the due of the new information makes it pretty clear this is information starkly relevant and necessary for the article regarding it - the side effect of which ends up with the article being listed here, due to RS's attributing and confirming Islamist motivations. The fact that there is a large conflict of information at all from the rumor mills beforehand and the new information now is pretty important as well - I've said several times that that article is rife for a subsection specifically on that subject - but there's every reason (from onus, due, and weight) that the information should be included, and no Wikipedia reason it should not. [[User:SpeakerOfReason|SpeakerOfReason]] ([[User_talk:SpeakerOfReason|be gentle!]]) 08:27, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::::No, I wasn't referring to you. But I question the value of more circular discussion, which is accomplishing little but creating more for the closer to read. I've stated my argument as concisely as I can in my !vote (updating it as my thinking has crystalized), and I'm going to try to sit it out from here on. I wouldn't presume to insist that others do the same, but I hope most of them will. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#AAA;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 08:37, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::::I mean I totally understand your point of view on the matter with regards to how closely we define acts of terror in context with links to actual terror groups - I think if there's even the slightest reason why the Orlando shooting shouldn't be on this list, it would be yours - I just don't think we can quibble regarding the details when there's so many places in the new information where &quot;Islamic/Islamist Terrorist&quot; is confirmed by RS. I just don't agree completely with your point because this isn't a list of &quot;Official Terrorist Group Attacks&quot; but &quot;List of Islamist terrorist attacks&quot; and sole gunman/bombers (in that context) should qualify. [[User:SpeakerOfReason|SpeakerOfReason]] ([[User_talk:SpeakerOfReason|be gentle!]]) 08:46, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::::::I get it. I understand and respect your position. But the point of an RfC is to convince the closer, not each other. I have VERY rarely seen an editor change their mind as a result of RfC discussion, and the majority of those few times it was me. Ergo, extended discussion is largely a waste of time, and I've felt this way in every long RfC I've ever seen. We convince the closer, or not, mostly in our !votes and perhaps a bit of discussion immediately following them. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#AAA;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 08:55, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> * I support the call for a SNOW close. [[User:D.Creish|D.Creish]] ([[User talk:D.Creish|talk]]) 14:26, 1 July 2016 (UTC)f<br /> <br /> === Discussion ===<br /> See discussion [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:List_of_Islamist_terrorist_attacks#Orlando_shooting here]. Further comments can be added below. [[User:Kingsindian|Kingsindian]]&amp;nbsp;[[User Talk: Kingsindian|&amp;#9821;]]&amp;nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Kingsindian|&amp;#9818;]] 00:44, 23 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> I have left a message on the talk page [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:2016_Orlando_nightclub_shooting#RfC_input_welcomed here]. [[User:Kingsindian|Kingsindian]]&amp;nbsp;[[User Talk: Kingsindian|&amp;#9821;]]&amp;nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Kingsindian|&amp;#9818;]] 15:53, 23 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> *Comment - The info regarding Mateen's alleged lover is currently just a rumor and a claim made by one person (to the best of my knowledge). We cannot treat it as anything but that. Should investigators corroborate that he was indeed his lover, that would be different. But afaik, we don't have that corroboration yet. [[User:EvergreenFir|'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:#8b00ff;&quot;&gt;Eve&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#6528c2;&quot;&gt;rgr&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#3f5184;&quot;&gt;een&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#197947;&quot;&gt;Fir&lt;/span&gt;''']] [[User talk:EvergreenFir|(talk)]] &lt;small&gt;Please &amp;#123;&amp;#123;[[Template:re|re]]&amp;#125;&amp;#125;&lt;/small&gt; 16:24, 23 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> *:Right. It's about as credible as ISIL taking credit for the shooting.- [[user: MrX|Mr]][[user talk:MrX|X]] 01:47, 24 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::: A more cogent point I have yet to see regarding this travesty. Thank you, MrX. &lt;&gt; [[User:Alt lys er svunnet hen|Alt lys er svunnet hen]] ([[User talk:Alt lys er svunnet hen|talk]]) 08:51, 28 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::It is important to bear in mind that the authorities have had a significant rethink about the motives since the first 24 hours after the shooting. Immediately afterwards, it seemed plausible that this was a rerun of the Bataclan theatre shooting. While the Orlando shooting was similar in its style, Omar Mateen was a lot like previous U.S. mass shooters and may have added radical Islam into the mix after reading some online propaganda material. He may have been trying to big it up when all he really wanted was notoriety, like many previous mass shooters.--'''''[[User:ianmacm|&lt;span style=&quot;background:#88b;color:#cff;font-variant:small-caps&quot;&gt;♦Ian&lt;span style=&quot;background:#99c&quot;&gt;Ma&lt;span style=&quot;background:#aad&quot;&gt;c&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;M♦&lt;/span&gt;]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:ianmacm|(talk to me)]]&lt;/sup&gt;''''' 04:57, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::::Let's say this is true; does this automatically mean that the fact he claimed allegiance to the Islamic terrorist groups null and void? Are we to dismiss the fact he said &quot;I'm committing these acts in the name of Islam&quot;? (not actual quote but you get what I mean) I'd argue that it's just more information on top of what we already know, which is that this is an self-described Islamic terrorist attack. New evidence does not make it any more or less of a terrorist attack. [[User:Sethyre|Sethyre]] ([[User talk:Sethyre|talk]]) 19:24, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::::To further what Sethyre has said, Mateen claimed it as an Islamic attack himself - to the authorities directly, disregarding the other supporting facts - the Islamic terror group in question claimed responsibility (or more pertinent perhaps, their approval) and the FBI themselves, primary authorities investigating the matter, also stated it was driven at least in large part by Mateens Islamic beliefs. Many reliable sources - repeatedly quoted and linked in different places in this RfC - have quoted this language directly, and several even reporting it in their own voices. Regardless of statements of &quot;confusion&quot; made by third parties and other talking heads, is not any form of action other then directly recording the news and these statements (perhaps with a conflict section specifically on this matter, if such is still opined by others as somehow incorrect with good sources) given their weight on this issue anything more then OR or POV? As I stated in the edit request further down, I don't normally comment on Wikipedia, and as such shall remain an IP - whether you feel that takes credibility away from my reasoning or not is up to you, but the reporting on this case is pretty clear cut from where I'm sitting. [[Special:Contributions/69.114.53.16|69.114.53.16]] ([[User talk:69.114.53.16|talk]]) 20:33, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::::::It is completely irrelevant whether or not he also had other motives for his attack - many Islamist terrorist attacks are also hate crimes, or are enacted to gain revenge for some real or imagined slight. The fact that he actively pledged allegiance to ISIS, had a history of sympathizing with radical Islamist beliefs, that the US government has agreed that his Islamist beliefs played a role in the attack, and that ISIS took credit for it all points towards it being an Islamist attack. If he had other motives as well, that doesn't change the fact that he still belongs on this list. [[user:Titanium Dragon|&lt;span style=&quot;background-color:{{ trim | silver }}; color:{{ trim | }};&quot;&gt;{{ trim | '''Titanium Dragon''' }}&lt;/span&gt;]] ([[user talk:Titanium Dragon|talk]]) 23:47, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> *'''Yes''' The fact that we are discussing this shows some of the fundamental flaws in Wikipedia (much as I love it) that are disappointing. We are not required to give both sides equal time, this isn't a 24 hour news program where 1 outlier who believes aliens gave us technology gets to debate 1 professor who says they didn't. The terrorist left a claim, it's been reported many times, there should be no dispute - and yet - here we are :sigh:. [[User:BHC|BHC]] ([[User talk:BHC|talk]]) 20:37, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> *: Your vote is in the wrong place {{ping|BHC}} I suggest you move it to the appropriate subsection (in this case 6.1 Survey). [[User:Mr rnddude|Mr rnddude]] ([[User talk:Mr rnddude|talk]]) 23:26, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> * For all of you &quot;strong yes&quot;-ers: if someone, in the course of committing an extravagant outrage, proclaimed &quot;allegiance&quot; to extra-terrestial aliens, would that prove he was an extra-terrestial alien? ~ [[User:J. Johnson|J.&amp;nbsp;Johnson (JJ)]] ([[User_talk:J. Johnson#top|talk]]) 22:35, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::: If other attacks on this page have been listed for just the attacker pledging their allegiance to Islamist groups, what is the reasoning for not allowing the Orlando Shooting on the list? &lt;!-- Template:Unsigned --&gt;&lt;small&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—&amp;nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:2601:40d:8100:e810::2|2601:40d:8100:e810::2]] ([[User talk:2601:40d:8100:e810::2|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/2601:40d:8100:e810::2|contribs]]) &lt;/span&gt;&lt;/small&gt;<br /> ::: Have these theoretical extra-terrestiral aliens promoted lone wolf attacks, and have they acknowledged the actions of this person? In other words, your strawman is bunk. [[Special:Contributions/206.190.75.9|206.190.75.9]] ([[User talk:206.190.75.9|talk]]) 23:41, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::: To copy from below: The [[Charleston church shooting]] is currently in the category ''White supremacy in the United States'' despite the perpetrator having had no formal links to white supremacist groups. The motive was determined via consulting his manifesto and circumstantial evidence about which websites he had visited. The article itself features statements that cast doubt over the white supremacist element of the attack -- ''&quot;I don't think the church was his primary target because he told us he was going for the school. But I think he couldn't get into the school because of the security ... so I think he just settled for the church.&quot;'' Mateen's manifesto was transmitted via phone calls and the transcript features numerous mentions of Islamism and ideas frequently expressed by groups that are clearly Islamist. If we're going to cast aspersions over one manifesto, then it would only seem unbiased to call the motive on the other attack suspect, too. In fact, this would require every manifesto to be treated, as you say, like a person &quot;pledging allegiance to aliens&quot; and of no relevance to the motive for the attack. --[[User:Toomanyaccountsargh|Toomanyaccountsargh]] ([[User talk:Toomanyaccountsargh|talk]]) 05:31, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::: If we had a list of &quot;Terrorist attacks by UFO conspiracy theorists&quot;, yeah, we'd include him on that list. It is irrelevant whether or not the guy is a member of ISIS, though; this is about Islamist terrorist attacks, not ISIS terrorist attacks. [[user:Titanium Dragon|&lt;span style=&quot;background-color:{{ trim | silver }}; color:{{ trim | }};&quot;&gt;{{ trim | '''Titanium Dragon''' }}&lt;/span&gt;]] ([[user talk:Titanium Dragon|talk]]) 23:42, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> <br /> I disagree. There is more evidence that 9/11 wasn't an Islamist attack when compared to Orlando. Bin Laden originally stated he didn't do it. He retracted his statements, and CIA and FBI intel makes it undeniable that Bin Laden caused 9/11.<br /> <br /> Meanwhile, The Orlando shooter made his motives clear from day 1. [[User:R00b07|R00b07]] ([[User talk:R00b07|talk]]) 23:54, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> <br /> I also don't care what Breitbart said. A fact is a fact. He pledged allegiance to ISIS. That's like if during the Troubles someone pledged allegiance to the IRA and shot British people. It's clear what the motive is. If Breitbart said 2+2=4 would we change it just to spite Breitbart? [[User:R00b07|R00b07]] ([[User talk:R00b07|talk]]) 00:06, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> :That is the most ridiculous argument I have ever heard (on this page so far). &quot;He said it, therefore it is&quot;, no sir, the motivations are not clear and that's why we're having this discussion. I could pledge allegiance to Black Lives Matter and go on a rampage against the white community, that doesn't necessarily mean that that was my real motive. Maybe I just don't care anymore or am actually a psycho. The point is, you don't know his motivations, we don't know his motivations, we only know what sources are suggesting are his motivations and what he has claimed are his motivations. There's reason to believe that he's covering up his real motivations, and that's why we're discussing this. [[User:Mr rnddude|Mr rnddude]] ([[User talk:Mr rnddude|talk]]) 00:12, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::{{tq|we only know what sources are suggesting are his motivations and what he has claimed are his motivations.}} And that's all we need to know to include, list, and edit articles on subjects for Wikipedia - indeed, that's all we're '''allowed''' to use when doing such. We report NPOV what the reliable sources say, which in this case the shooter himself, the FBI investigating and releasing information and the news organizations consequently writing articles about those findings all qualify as such. Going further is OR and it definitely wouldn't be the first, or last article on Wikipedia that; for reasons of credibility, NPOV, and BLP - isn't allowed to dig deeper into mysterious motivations when we have due weight sources '''not''' reporting on them to any effective degree. [[Special:Contributions/69.114.53.16|69.114.53.16]] ([[User talk:69.114.53.16|talk]]) 00:27, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::You are quite correct, and the predominance of reliable sources do not state unequivocally (the appropriate bar for a list that is without explanation or context) that this was an Islamic terrorist attack. The original research is to place it in this list based on the ambiguous connections that ''have'' been made. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#AAA;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 00:31, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::The reliable sources are still out on the discussion (is he islamist, gay, schizophrenic, etc). The investigation is still going on, when the investigation ends, when we have undeniable/conclusive evidence, we'll make the report. The point being, we are not reporting anything until we have substantiated facts. Reporting nothing fits well within NPOV, reporting something controversial not so much. [[User:Mr rnddude|Mr rnddude]] ([[User talk:Mr rnddude|talk]]) 00:32, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::You're both correct that there is conflict between news services regarding exactly what Mateen's motivations are, and there are just as many that don't state it was Islamic terrorism in their own voice and quote others who also refuse to label it as such - but there's also many places that do (plenty of which are linked around the RFC above). While the news services are still bumbling around this and perhaps need to be taken with a grain of salt - or two - I'd posit that the statements made by Mateen himself and the information and conclusions so far discussed and released by the FBI are perhaps at this moment, until given evidence otherwise, more weighty themselves - and these are sources that unequivocally '''do''' include the attack under Islamic fundamentalism. I did suggest earlier in one of the edit requests that perhaps the best result for now would be to include the Orlando shooting in this list, but also add a strong conflict subsection explaining the currently ongoing nature of the case and the disputation of facts currently presented, focusing on refuting the possible Islamic involvement in such. [[Special:Contributions/69.114.53.16|69.114.53.16]] ([[User talk:69.114.53.16|talk]]) 00:52, 1 July 2016 (UTC) <br /> :::::::::: &quot;and there are just as many that don't state it was Islamic terrorism in their own voice &quot; Can I have a list of those sources? I'm really curious on who states that. [[User:R00b07|R00b07]] ([[User talk:R00b07|talk]]) 02:00, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::::::::::There's several up above (most famously MrX's response near the top) but take heed - I'm not saying they definitively stated it was '''not''' an Islamic attack, but that they didn't state it was, or at the very least offered quotes saying the same and avoiding the issue in their own words entirely. Which, in contrast - to me, anyway - lends more credence and weight to the official statements from the FBI as they have definitively stated a conclusion as far as Mateen's motivations go (and aligning with Mateen's statements) while the news organizations opposed to this are making no claims other than a paraphrased &quot;We can't know for sure!&quot; which is a definitive cloud of nebulous indecision and without any sort of supported substantiated evidence - unlike the FBI. [[Special:Contributions/69.114.53.16|69.114.53.16]] ([[User talk:69.114.53.16|talk]]) 02:25, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> :{{tq|Anyone saying it wasn't an Islamic attack is being intentionally dishonest.}} Right, we're all just ISIL sleeper agents, placed in the West and raised as Westerners to represent jihadism at en-Wikipedia. Or, just maybe, we have a different viewpoint from you as to the proper use of a list that is devoid of explanation or context. I'd suggest you have a read of [[WP:AGF]] and avoid any further such comments. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#AAA;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 00:13, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> :: This is the most ironic comment I have ever seen, as it was assumed that I was in bad faith. Also, do you have a more logical reason why he did what he did?[[User:R00b07|R00b07]] ([[User talk:R00b07|talk]]) 01:20, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::There is a substantial lack of irony in the comment, there is no strawman just a bit of sarcasm. The point being delivered is that we have differing opinions to you, there is controversy surrounding the motives of the attacker and so some of us are opposed to their inclusion in this article. It's quite that simple. [[User:Mr rnddude|Mr rnddude]] ([[User talk:Mr rnddude|talk]]) 01:26, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::Sub comment; A more logical reason? you realize that we're discussing human motives, the epitomy of the illogical (slight hyperbole as it were). I can suggest other reasons (logical or otherwise); his religious beliefs conflicting with his own self (this does not mean a connection with the Daesh), shame for his own sexuality, schizophrenia (mentioned somewhere above, wasn't even aware of it to be honest), delusions and so forth. [[User:Mr rnddude|Mr rnddude]] ([[User talk:Mr rnddude|talk]]) 01:31, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::::::: If that's the case, I honestly and seriously recommend making a List of Schizophreniac attacks, and adding the Orlando shooting to it.[[User:R00b07|R00b07]] ([[User talk:R00b07|talk]]) 01:36, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::::::::For clarity, I'm not saying it is or isn't, only suggesting that it ''could be'', and because it ''could be'', that qualifies the argument that ISIL inspired attack ''might not be'', because it ''might not be'', we shouldn't include it in this article until we can qualify that it ''is'' or ''isn't''. [[User:Mr rnddude|Mr rnddude]] ([[User talk:Mr rnddude|talk]]) 01:40, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::::::::::I'm not stating that ISIL caused the attack. This isn't a list of ISIL attacks. What every major news outlet (CBS, NBC, ABC, and hell before the FBI censored the phone call) reported was that the Orlando Massacre was an Islamic Terror attack. If we can't classify it as an Islamic Terror Attack, what are we going to classify it as instead? Because removing the Massacre and not giving a new place would be not good. [[User:R00b07|R00b07]] ([[User talk:R00b07|talk]]) 01:56, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::::::::Must everything be placed into a nice, simple category? Is that what we're here for, to encourage simple-minded worldviews, sort of like Hollywood movies? I hope not. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#AAA;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 01:49, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::::::::::: Yes, everything should be placed into an appropriate list. If it doesn't fit one list, it should fit into another. I thought the point of Wikipedia was to &quot;collect and develop educational content under a free license or in the public domain, and to disseminate it effectively and globally&quot;. [[User:R00b07|R00b07]] ([[User talk:R00b07|talk]]) 01:59, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::::::::::::Key words; &quot;appropriate list&quot;, this might not be the appropriate list, we might not have a list that is appropriate, we might not need one. [[User:Mr rnddude|Mr rnddude]] ([[User talk:Mr rnddude|talk]]) 02:01, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::::::::::::Fair enough, good point. [[User:R00b07|R00b07]] ([[User talk:R00b07|talk]]) 02:17, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::::::::::::{{tq|Yes, everything should be placed into an appropriate list.}} Strongly disagree, for the reason I stated. But I'm open to seeing the Wikipedia policy or guideline that says that. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#AAA;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 02:04, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> {{outdent}} ((&quot;But I'm open to seeing the Wikipedia policy or guideline that says that.&quot;)) It's not a guideline, it's common sense that if Wikipedia's mission is to &quot;collect and develop educational content&quot; and &quot;to disseminate it effectively and globally&quot;, that having attacks in an organized list makes it easier to collect and share to the public. But I'm open to seeing something instead of an organized list that would better &quot;disseminate it effectively and globally&quot;. [[User:R00b07|R00b07]] ([[User talk:R00b07|talk]]) 02:17, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> :{{User:Cyclopia/Ubx common sense}} &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#AAA;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 02:26, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> :: Regardless if it's common sense or reason, my point remains and you haven't addressed it. [[User:R00b07|R00b07]] ([[User talk:R00b07|talk]]) 02:28, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::Well there's no addressing the logical long-jump from &quot;collect and develop educational content&quot;, and &quot;to disseminate it effectively and globally&quot;, to &quot;include Orlando in a list of Islamic terrorism attacks&quot;. So I won't try to. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#AAA;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 02:31, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::You seem to be missing my point. I NEVER SAID that &quot;collect and develop educational content&quot; and &quot;to disseminate it effectively and globally&quot; means that you must &quot;include Orlando in a list of Islamic terrorism attacks&quot;. I said that &quot;having attacks in an organized list makes it easier to collect and share to the public&quot; and that's what Wikipedia is all about. Adding Orlando to the list of attacks should only be done if there are enough sources, and the sources have been laid out a million times. I can provide links to the sources if you want. [[User:R00b07|R00b07]] ([[User talk:R00b07|talk]]) 02:44, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::::We are beyond circular argument here, so I refer you to my !vote and previous comments for my response. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#AAA;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 03:15, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::Per [[WP:AGF]], do not accuse others of being intentionally dishonest (your words, no &quot;straw man&quot; there) ''without clear evidence.'' The only reason we're not at [[WP:ANI]] now is that you didn't make the accusation against a specific editor (but that line could be moved if you persist). &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#AAA;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 01:27, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::::Edited my comment per [[WP:AGF]]. Also, I understand that being passive aggressive is allowed. [[User:R00b07|R00b07]] ([[User talk:R00b07|talk]]) 01:32, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::::I don't think your comment about the strawman was the issue being addressed by Mandruss, rather the insinuation that we're all being &quot;intentionally dishonest&quot; because we disagree. [[User:Mr rnddude|Mr rnddude]] ([[User talk:Mr rnddude|talk]]) 01:35, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::::::Edited my comment per [[WP:AGF]]. [[User:R00b07|R00b07]] ([[User talk:R00b07|talk]]) 01:39, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> We do know how to use the outdent template, right? I've applied it here for legibility reasons, by the way. I've also eliminated unnecessary indentations. Tell me if you feel I've made a mistake. &lt;font face=&quot;#&quot; color=&quot;#35b794&quot;&gt;[[User:Dschslava|'''Dsch'''slava]]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;#3558b7&quot;&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contribs/Dschslava|'' Δx '']]&lt;/sup&gt;[[User talk:Dschslava|parlez moi]]&lt;/font&gt; 06:25, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ===Real Talk===<br /> * Obama said that &quot;So whatever the motivations of the killer, whatever influences led him down the path of violence and terror, whatever propaganda he was consuming from ISIL and al Qaeda, this was an act of terrorism but it was also an act of hate.&quot; per [https://www.whitehouse.gov/blog/2016/06/12/president-obama-tragic-shooting-orlando]<br /> *The FBI released a transcript of the attacker's phone call to 911 that included him pledging allegiance to ISIS and identifying himself as an Islamic soldier: [http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2016/06/20/fbi-release-orlando-911-transcripts/86130520/]<br /> * Reuters notes the shooter expressed support for multiple Islamist groups, and the FBI said that he pledged his support to Islamist extremists and referred to him being radicalized: [http://www.reuters.com/article/us-florida-shooting-nightclub-idUSKCN0YY08B]<br /> * Hillary Clinton referred to it as &quot;radical Islamism&quot;: [http://www.politico.com/story/2016/06/hillary-clinton-radical-islam-224255] Donald Trump did as well.<br /> That's the terrorist himself, the president, both of the major presidential candidates, the FBI, and Reuters all referring to him pledging allegience to an Islamist group, being an Islamist, radicalization, radical islamism, it being a terrorist attack, ect. What exactly are people complaining about here? Wikipedia itself classifies ISIS/ISIL/Islamic State as an Islamist group. [[user:Titanium Dragon|&lt;span style=&quot;background-color:{{ trim | silver }}; color:{{ trim | }};&quot;&gt;{{ trim | '''Titanium Dragon''' }}&lt;/span&gt;]] ([[user talk:Titanium Dragon|talk]]) 02:14, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :Thank you. You have created a separate section for your argument, it being obviously more important than the rest. Can the rest of us do that, resulting in over a hundred !vote subsections? &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#AAA;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 02:19, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::: Why do you feel the need to be hostile in order to make your point? Remember to [[WP:AGF]]. [[WP:ANI]] applies to everyone. Maybe he is new and made a new section because he doesn't know any better. Assume Good Faith. [[User:R00b07|R00b07]] ([[User talk:R00b07|talk]]) 02:25, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::::Holy crap, why are people SO ADAMANT on keeping the Orlando shooting off the list? It's like people are trying to avoid coming to terms with reality, and the more evidence and arguments FOR keeping it on the list pop up, the more frustrated and angry they get. Just look at the comment in response to this, it's completely avoiding the point and instead attacks Titanium Dragon for making a separate space. [[User:Sethyre|Sethyre]] ([[User talk:Sethyre|talk]]) 02:30, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::::: (&quot;Holy crap, why are people SO ADAMANT on keeping the Orlando shooting off the list?&quot;) You know why. ;) But yeah, it's sad when people who speak against the stream get replied with sarcastic comments. (Assume Good Faith doesn't work here, since it was already admitted)[[User:R00b07|R00b07]] ([[User talk:R00b07|talk]]) 02:33, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::::{{tq|Holy crap, why are people SO ADAMANT on keeping the Orlando shooting off the list?}} If you actually don't understand the arguments, you haven't read much of them. I understand it's a ton of reading, but it beats endless redundant repetition. And speaking only for myself, I'm neither frustrated nor angry, although I do object to a separate subsection for the argument that could have been made in a !vote. It's the same reasoning as is applied to extensive use of boldfacing or underscoring. If no one else shares that view, fine. I'm capable of deferring to consensus on this as much as anything else. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#AAA;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 02:48, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::::: Let's dissect this one again. &quot;If you actually don't understand the arguments, you haven't read much of them.&quot; I'm assuming you mean well by this comment, but it's really hard to. To me it seems like another insult. [[User:R00b07|R00b07]] ([[User talk:R00b07|talk]]) 02:53, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::::::Given the wall-of-text effect, it's anything but an insult to suggest that someone may not have read much of it. Being a very slow reader, I am myself forced to skip much of that when I arrive at an RfC late, and I wouldn't feel insulted if someone pointed that out to me after I had implied that I don't understand the opposition's arguments. My comments are clearly not in violation of AGF, so I'd ask that you take any further discussion about my tone to my talk page. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#AAA;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 02:59, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> ** When Hillary Clinton, Donald Trump, (I know not reliable sources, just making a point) CNN, NBC, CBS, ABC, and The FBI (Reliable Sources) agree that the motivation was Islamic Terror, that sounds like a consensus to me. However, somehow the argument manages to devolve into talks about schizophrenia and self hatred. [[User:R00b07|R00b07]] ([[User talk:R00b07|talk]]) 02:25, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> ***I personally have no stakes in this, I only care that we wait until either we have unequivocal evidence of such (which seems to be well documented above) or that we come to a consensus. I mentioned the alternate arguments because I'd noted them in some places. [[User:Mr rnddude|Mr rnddude]] ([[User talk:Mr rnddude|talk]]) 02:37, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> ****The thing that is confusing me is that we have a ton of reliable sources, and people are talking about extraterrestrials and stuff. Wikipedia relies on reliable sources and [[WP:COMMONNAME]] to name/identify stuff. Given that there seem to be an overwhelming number of RSes aligned on this point, I'm not sure what the argument is really about at this point. What else could we possibly be looking for? When the terrorist, a terrorist group, the US government, a variety of news sources, and competing presidential candidates all agree on something, it seems like that's about as much agreement as you can reasonably hope for. [[user:Titanium Dragon|&lt;span style=&quot;background-color:{{ trim | silver }}; color:{{ trim | }};&quot;&gt;{{ trim | '''Titanium Dragon''' }}&lt;/span&gt;]] ([[user talk:Titanium Dragon|talk]]) 04:23, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> *****What you're essentially saying (correct me if I'm wrong) is that the arguments for inclusion are clearly stronger than those against. If you're right, any competent closer will see that and close in your favor. A new separate subsection doesn't get us any closer to that end, and only serves to give undue &lt;u&gt;emphasis&lt;/u&gt; to your argument—and create yet more redundancy for the closer to slog through. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#AAA;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 04:37, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> ******Yelling at people to shut up does not actually reduce the volume in the room, you know. [[Special:Contributions/2601:602:9802:99B2:F1DB:D95B:C7B2:2EE0|2601:602:9802:99B2:F1DB:D95B:C7B2:2EE0]] ([[User talk:2601:602:9802:99B2:F1DB:D95B:C7B2:2EE0|talk]]) 05:04, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> *******{{Ping|Mandruss}} I was hoping for an explanation of why we should disregard all of those sources and not list it as an Islamist terrorist attack. Wikipedia isn't about voting, its about consensus, and I'm trying to understand what it is that you disagree with here. MrX's original objection was simply that there weren't sources which said that this was an Islamist terrorist attack, but it is clear that there are tons of such sources, so I was wondering if there was some other objection. If there isn't, there's not much of a point to any of this. The only other argument I'm seeing is people speculating that he was gay, but we don't know that he was, and in any case, there's nothing that prevents an Islamist from being gay. There have been many instances of conservatives who were very strongly opposed to homosexuality due to their religious beliefs themselves being homosexual, so it isn't really a counter-argument - doubly so given that the shooter told the police themselves that they were acting on behalf of ISIS (whether ISIS knew about it or not). [[user:Titanium Dragon|&lt;span style=&quot;background-color:{{ trim | silver }}; color:{{ trim | }};&quot;&gt;{{ trim | '''Titanium Dragon''' }}&lt;/span&gt;]] ([[user talk:Titanium Dragon|talk]]) 05:35, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> ********It's a wonder that there's a RfC at all. There's far more attacks that have vauger connections to Islam than the Orlando shooting, so why is THIS PARTICULAR event so contested here on Wikipedia? And what does it say about Wikipedia in general if things like this continue to happen despite clear evidence that it isn't necessary? [[User:Sethyre|Sethyre]] ([[User talk:Sethyre|talk]]) 05:41, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> *********I don't believe that this particularly says anything about Wikipedia in general, beyond possibly a few tendentious editors - I mean, let's be clear here, the series of events were extremely muddled and conflicting information tossed all about originally and the very points against the Orlando's inclusion as an Islamic attack were well applied at that point. It is however fair (and safe) at this point to say this has changed. All the more recent information (news articles/FBI/talking heads) have given full and due weight to the information that yes; indeed - this attack was a demonstration of Islamic fundamentalism. The editors who have up to this point protected this article (and it's inclusion to this list) in the meantime have done well by doing so, and deserve every chance to review all the new articles and sources (posted here and any in an edit request below) and see the well given preponderance of statements towards real, supported information - and the dismissal of several fallacies formerly involved too. Now, if people choose to keep ignoring all of this then perhaps it would be time to wail about the stubborn mules and the Wikipedia stables - but the time hasn't precisely come yet, and always assume in good faith that people can come around. [[Special:Contributions/69.114.53.16|69.114.53.16]] ([[User talk:69.114.53.16|talk]]) 06:06, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> ********The arguments against inclusion are more than &quot;there weren't sources which said that this was an Islamist terrorist attack&quot;. They have been stated multiple times by multiple editors with multiple ways of saying them, and often with others apparently failing to hear them or hearing them inaccurately and/or simplistically. I'm sorry but it seems both impractical and a waste of time to try to fully articulate them here, again. They are there for you to read, or maybe someone else would care to take a stab at a full and complete re-statement of them. Update: On second thought, I doubt any one editor could fully and accurately summarize &lt;u&gt;all&lt;/u&gt; of the nay arguments. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#AAA;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 05:53, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> * The [[2015 Leytonstone tube station attack]] was another of those attacks that people raced to include in this list, for many of the same reasons people want to include Orlando. The Leytonstone attacker shouted Islamic phrases, so it '''''must''''' have been an Islamist attack, right?! Oh, no, wait now... Nope. Mentally ill man. We'll never know for definite now whether Mateen was mentally ill or not, but being the U.S., he had access to much more significant weaponry. Certainly, from people who ''knew'' him (as opposed to FBI examinations of his phone), he apparently appeared to be [[Omar_Mateen#Personal_life|mentally unstable]] and his sexual orientation was [[Omar_Mateen#Sexual_orientation|open to question]]. Sorry if that doesn't fit in to some black and white Breitbart classification. [[User:Bastun|&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Verdana, sans-serif&quot;&gt;Bastun&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Bastun|Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!]]&lt;/sup&gt; 16:45, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> :But mental illness doesn't preclude an attack for any type of classification. Neither does sexual orientation. Is the list called &quot;List of attacks by Heterosexual, Mentally Stable Islamists&quot;? No. I'm not a doctor, but I would guess that Omar Mateen, Dylan Roof, the Leytonstone attacker, and Ted Kaczynski were all mentally unstable. But these attackers all chose to intentionally identify with a polical ideology and associate their attacks with some ideology. If Omar Mateen supports ISIS because ISIS gives him publicity, which he craves for psychopathological reasons (this is plausible, but also very speculative), that does not make him less of a supporter of ISIS. Consider a hypothetical fighter who has joined ISIS to gain money or slaves as spoils of war but has little interest in religion. Would that man not be a &quot;real&quot; supporter of ISIS? I think many of you who support removing this attack from the list are talking past us. The issue isn't that Mateen might have been gay, or might have been crazy, and that we Breitbart drones fail to recognize that. The issue is that we cannot understand how any of those complicating factor make Mateen ''not'' an ISIS supporter. Should we have a separate list for terrorist attacks made by ISIS supporters, that support the religous and political aims of ISIS (killing of gays and Americans), yet potentially had other motives? Well guess what- that would include every single attack on this list, including those ''actually directed by ISIS and Al-Qida''. Should we remove 9/11 from this list? Maybe one or more of the hijackers went through a rough divorce, flunked out of school, had a brain tumor, etc, etc, etc. Who cares? This is honestly getting absurd. [[User:Brianbleakley|Brianbleakley]] ([[User talk:Brianbleakley|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Brianbleakley|contrib]])) 17:45, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Recent evidence from the FBI about Orlando ==<br /> <br /> <br /> From yesterday's article titled &quot;FBI investigators say they have found no evidence that Orlando shooter had gay lovers&quot; found here: http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-orlando-gay-fbi-20160623-snap-story.html<br /> <br /> &quot;He claimed the shooting was carried out in allegiance to the militant group Islamic State, as a message to halt U.S. bombing in Iraq and Syria. Several Pulse regulars have come forward in the days since the shooting, claiming to have seen Mateen at the club or to have been contacted by him on the gay dating apps Grindr, Jack’d and Adam4Adam. On Tuesday, Univision aired a report in which “Miguel,” a man wearing a disguise to conceal his identity, alleged he had sex with Mateen after meeting him on the gay dating app, Grindr. He said Mateen &gt;had sex with other men too, including a threesome with a Puerto Rican who allegedly told Mateen, after having had unprotected sex with him, that he was HIV positive. But investigators do not consider the man’s account credible, according to one senior law enforcement official with access to the investigation.&quot;<br /> <br /> In light of this information, it seems that indeed Orlando was motivated by extremism. &lt;small class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—&amp;nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/73.233.156.49|73.233.156.49]] ([[User talk:73.233.156.49|talk]]) 14:06, 24 June 2016 (UTC)&lt;/small&gt;&lt;!-- Template:Unsigned IP --&gt; &lt;!--Autosigned by SineBot--&gt;<br /> :No, that would be a [[false binary]]. Let's let the FBI finish doing their job.- [[user: MrX|Mr]][[user talk:MrX|X]] 21:56, 24 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::Did you miss the first sentence of the quote about Mateen? &quot;He claimed the shooting was carried out in allegiance to the militant group Islamic State, as a message to halt U.S. bombing in Iraq and Syria.&quot; This wasn't a &quot;process of elimination&quot; conclusion that it was extremism, this is actually what Mateen's affirmative motivation was as reported by the investigators. &lt;small class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—&amp;nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/73.233.156.49|73.233.156.49]] ([[User talk:73.233.156.49|talk]]) 14:44, 25 June 2016 (UTC)&lt;/small&gt;&lt;!-- Template:Unsigned IP --&gt; &lt;!--Autosigned by SineBot--&gt;<br /> :::Maybe I misunderstood how you were reaching your conclusion, in which case mentioning the gay angle is not really relevant. Whether Mateen's own pledge of allegiance to ISIL is sufficient for characterizing the shooting as an Islamist terrorist attack is at the center of the editorial dispute (above). Obviously opinions vary. - [[user: MrX|Mr]][[user talk:MrX|X]] 18:11, 25 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::Mateen's only claim is Islamist extremism. ISIL or Hezbollah or Chechen or Taliban matters not in a self-radicalized Islamist terror attack against Western policy. It is sufficient that he attacked unarmed persons because he disagreed with the policy that killed Muslims. That is not an uncommon motive and the flavor of Islam is not relevant. We have a lot more evidence of his Islamist terror motive than any anti-LGBT motive. --[[User:DHeyward|DHeyward]] ([[User talk:DHeyward|talk]]) 00:09, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> Why is the self gay hatred narrative still being peddled around, when it is significantly less plausible than any other factor being brought up? [[User:R00b07|R00b07]] ([[User talk:R00b07|talk]]) 00:44, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> A muslim man shot up a nightclub under the pretense of Radical Islam. ISIL later took credit for it. Who cares if it was carried out on ISIL's instruction or not? ISIL has sent messages to Extremists in the US and other western countries to continue carrying out LONE WOLF attacks. ISIL can't personally endorse each and every attempted bombing. They only take credit once the deed is done. The Orlando shooting was one of these encouraged lone wolf attacks, and while ISIL didn't plan it, they certainly took credit. Stop this PC nonsense. You are disrespecting the deceased victims names if you call this anything other than what it really is: Islamic Terror.<br /> <br /> == Semi-protected edit request on 26 June 2016 ==<br /> <br /> {{edit semi-protected|List of Islamist terrorist attacks|answered=yes}}<br /> &lt;!-- State UNAMBIGUOUSLY your suggested changes. Other editors need to know what to add or remove. Blank edit requests will be declined. --&gt;<br /> <br /> <br /> To be added near the bottom of the 2016 list of terrorist attacks in chronological order...<br /> <br /> *Florida June 12, 2016 - Omar Mateen, pledging allegiance to ISIS, attacked the Pulse gay nightclub in Orlando, Fl, killing 49 and wounding 53 others before he himself was killed in a shootout with police. url=http://www.cnn.com/2016/06/12/us/orlando-nightclub-shooting/<br /> <br /> <br /> &lt;!-- Write your request ABOVE this line and do not remove the tildes below. --&gt;<br /> [[User:Ghostvet|Ghostvet]] ([[User talk:Ghostvet|talk]]) 22:02, 26 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :{{not done}} - See [[#RfC: Should the Orlando shooting be included in this list?]]. - [[user: MrX|Mr]][[user talk:MrX|X]] 22:06, 26 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Semi-protected edit request on 29 June 2016 ==<br /> <br /> {{edit semi-protected|List of Islamist terrorist attacks|answered=yes}}<br /> &lt;!-- State UNAMBIGUOUSLY your suggested changes. Other editors need to know what to add or remove. Blank edit requests will be declined. --&gt;<br /> <br /> <br /> I noticed that the Orlando attack is missing from the list of Islamic terrorist attacks. I know there have been a lot of Internet memes trying to claim that it wasn’t Islamic, but homophobia for example. I submit for your consideration that it can be both.<br /> First, there are multiple sources that consider the Orlando attacks to be both Islamic and Terrorist. It actually parallels the Fort Hood and San Bernardino attacks, where a self-radicalized attacker was inspired by radical Islamic ideology he learned on the Internet. He then selected a target he knew and attacked.<br /> As far as the definition for what a “reliable source” is, how do you handle that with things that are so political? The New York Times editorial page is certainly not an unbiased source. If their editorial page is disqualified, would you disqualify the editorial page of the Wall Street Journal as well? The AP Stylebook is influenced by politics and you will see certain English-language sources avoid words, whether because the stylebook states a preferred way or their own individual bias. (For more on this, see the AP Stylebook regarding the change from using the term illegal immigrants to undocumented workers to describe those who are unlawfully present in the U.S.<br /> Cite: &lt;ref&gt;https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/wp/2013/04/02/ap-drops-illegal-immigrant-from-stylebook/&lt;/ref&gt;<br /> <br /> I would argue that your definition should not be solely whether a single news article includes the words “terrorism” and “Islamic.” Rather, you should take into consideration whether or not the attacker claimed his motivation was Islam and whether a known Islamic terrorist organization congratulates, endorses, or claims responsibility for an attack. (For example, the Irish Republican Army has not claimed credit for any of the attacks on the Islamic terror attack list, even though the organization blew up some buildings and engaged in terrorist activity in the past.)<br /> Orlando Attack Sources:<br /> &lt;ref&gt;http://fpif.org/orlando-future-terrorism/&lt;/ref&gt;<br /> &lt;ref&gt;https://www.stratfor.com/geopolitical-diary/searching-right-answer-islamic-state&lt;/ref&gt;<br /> &lt;ref&gt;http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2016/06/12/orlando-nightclub-shooting/&lt;/ref&gt;<br /> <br /> For those that argue the Orlando attack was just a hate crime because of homophobia, consider that homosexual behavior still qualifies for the death penalty in many Islamic countries, and in Daesh-controlled areas. Islam itself recommends violence against homosexuals:<br /> &lt;ref&gt;https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2016/06/13/here-are-the-10-countries-where-homosexuality-may-be-punished-by-death-2/&lt;/ref&gt;<br /> &lt;ref&gt;http://www.latimes.com/world/middleeast/la-fg-islamic-state-anti-gay-violence-20160613-snap-story.html&lt;/ref&gt;<br /> &lt;ref&gt;http://www.cbsnews.com/news/isis-orlando-shooting-gays-execution-torture-ramadan/&lt;/ref&gt;<br /> &lt;ref&gt;http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/nation/imams-line-up-to-condemn-homosexuality/news-story/b1df7829507ae0a60875a5577bd21a43&lt;/ref&gt;<br /> <br /> Here are some sources for terrorist attacks not currently listed:<br /> &lt;ref&gt;http://www.aol.com/article/2016/06/25/somali-islamist-militants-attack-hotel-in-mogadishu/21403805/&lt;/ref&gt;<br /> &lt;ref&gt;http://www.haaretz.com/world-news/1.603331&lt;/ref&gt;<br /> &lt;ref&gt;http://www.haaretz.com/world-news/1.599021&lt;/ref&gt;<br /> &lt;ref&gt;http://www.capitalfm.co.ke/news/2014/06/48-dead-so-far-in-mpeketoni-terror-attack/&lt;/ref&gt;<br /> &lt;ref&gt;http://www.reuters.com/article/us-yemen-security-idUSKCN0ZD292&lt;/ref&gt;<br /> &lt;ref&gt;http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/syria-isis-suicide-bomb-shrine-june11-1.3630987&lt;/ref&gt;<br /> &lt;ref&gt;http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3664267/Lebanese-Christian-women-armed-machine-guns-patrol-border-village-ISIS-suspects-launch-suicide-attacks-prompting-authorities-round-103-illegal-Syrian-migrants.html&lt;/ref&gt;<br /> {{reflist-talk}}<br /> <br /> &lt;!-- Write your request ABOVE this line and do not remove the tildes below. --&gt;<br /> [[User:DeanSoCal|DeanSoCal]] ([[User talk:DeanSoCal|talk]]) 05:45, 29 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :[[File:Red information icon with gradient background.svg|20px|link=]] '''Not done:'''&lt;!-- Template:ESp --&gt; On going rfc on this very talk page regarding this issue [[User:EvergreenFir|'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:#8b00ff;&quot;&gt;Eve&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#6528c2;&quot;&gt;rgr&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#3f5184;&quot;&gt;een&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#197947;&quot;&gt;Fir&lt;/span&gt;''']] [[User talk:EvergreenFir|(talk)]] &lt;small&gt;Please &amp;#123;&amp;#123;[[Template:re|re]]&amp;#125;&amp;#125;&lt;/small&gt; 06:11, 29 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::https://www.fbi.gov/tampa/press-releases/2016/investigative-update-regarding-pulse-nightclub-shooting Done, comment given, from the shooter himself. From the FBI press release, have fun saying this guy wasn't doing it as an islamic terror attack after reading it. anyone waiting for an RFC after reading that is pushing an agenda, period. [[Special:Contributions/65.29.77.61|65.29.77.61]] ([[User talk:65.29.77.61|talk]]) 18:01, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::Do not pretend to know the motives of other editors. [[User:EvergreenFir|'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:#8b00ff;&quot;&gt;Eve&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#6528c2;&quot;&gt;rgr&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#3f5184;&quot;&gt;een&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#197947;&quot;&gt;Fir&lt;/span&gt;''']] [[User talk:EvergreenFir|(talk)]] &lt;small&gt;Please &amp;#123;&amp;#123;[[Template:re|re]]&amp;#125;&amp;#125;&lt;/small&gt; 19:03, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::::I would agree with your statement on the IP above not pretending to know the motivations of other editors, but I also find it amazingly hypocritical how these same other editors are pretending to know about the motivations of the Orlando shooter, regardless of the all the facts and statements from the FBI and reporting from RS that disagree with their assumption. I don't normally comment on Wikipedia so please correct me if I'm wrong; but every single argument in that RfC purporting that Orlando was NOT a terrorist attack is based entirely on OR and unsubstantiated rumors directly contradicted by the primary authorities and recent RS that have reported on the matter. [[Special:Contributions/69.114.53.16|69.114.53.16]] ([[User talk:69.114.53.16|talk]]) 19:26, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::: I'm not pretending, it's pretty obvious. Every single fact tells them they're wrong. They have transcripts, they have recordings in the shooters own voice, yet somehow they just buried their head in the sand? Malice or ignorance, pick one. It can't be ignorance because I know they can left click a link. [[Special:Contributions/65.29.77.61|65.29.77.61]] ([[User talk:65.29.77.61|talk]]) 03:17, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == June 28 Ataturk airport bombing ==<br /> <br /> So, should we add this bombing to the list right now, as it's current, or should we wait until we get full details? Please answer. [[User:Awesomegaming|Awesomegaming]] ([[User talk:Awesomegaming|talk]]) 23:47, 29 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :Do you have a source saying that it was an Islamist terrorist attack?- [[user: MrX|Mr]][[user talk:MrX|X]] 00:25, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :No. We must wait for full details. [[User:Brianbleakley|Brianbleakley]] ([[User talk:Brianbleakley|talk]]) 17:24, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :We need to be politically correct as much as possible so we shouldn't include it. Even if the rest of the world is reporting it to be such. [[User:Sir Joseph|Sir Joseph]] &lt;sup&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;Green&quot;&gt;[[User_talk:Sir Joseph|(talk)]]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/sup&gt; 17:32, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :Would [http://www.cnn.com/2016/06/30/europe/turkey-istanbul-ataturk-airport-attack/ this article] be considered a valid source? The article itself has only anonymous sources, and is thus hearsay. On the other hand, it is hearsay from a 'reputable' source. It is quite likely that the link to ISIS is real- I'm not disputing that. I'm just curious about the standard of sourcing required for this sort of thing. [[User:Brianbleakley|Brianbleakley]] ([[User talk:Brianbleakley|talk]]) 17:54, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :Actually, there does seem to be an [http://www.cbsnews.com/news/istanbul-airport-attack-signs-point-to-isis/ official statement] &quot;The findings of our security forces point at the Daesh organization as the perpetrators of this terror attack,&quot; Yildirim said, using the Arabic name for ISIS. &quot;Even though the indications suggest Daesh, our investigations are continuing.&quot; [[User:Brianbleakley|Brianbleakley]] ([[User talk:Brianbleakley|talk]]) 18:01, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> <br /> Anyone who wants to point to any other motivation on the Ataturk bombings, other than Islamic Terror, feel free. [[User:R00b07|R00b07]] ([[User talk:R00b07|talk]]) 23:59, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Disruptive editing in the middle of an RfC ==<br /> <br /> Twice, editors have restored the Orlando shooting to this list, in spite of consensus to do so in the '''[[#RfC: Should the Orlando shooting be included in this list?|ongong RfC]]'''. Not only is this [[WP:DISRUPT|disruptive]], it's out of process as detailed at [[WP:RFC#Suggestions for responding]], which says<br /> :&quot;Edits to content under RfC discussion may be particularly controversial. Avoid making edits that others may view as unhelpful. Editing after others have raised objections may be viewed as disruptive editing or edit warring. Be patient; make your improvements in accord with consensus after the RFC is resolved.&quot;<br /> The RfC needs to be allowed to run its course, and consensus weighed by an admin, before this material is reintroduced.- [[user: MrX|Mr]][[user talk:MrX|X]] 15:33, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :Did you remove the attack from the list? If so, it should be reinstated immediately and the RfC should be completed to decide if it should be removed. Not the other way around. Why didn't you start a talk section about it instead of removing it immediately? [[User:Iksnyrk|Iksnyrk]] ([[User talk:Iksnyrk|talk]]) 20:11, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :There is no controversy. It was a self proclaimed islamic terrorist event. It's actually one of the very that can be completely verified as knowing what the motivation was.&lt;!-- Template:Unsigned --&gt;&lt;small&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—&amp;nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:97.91.188.153|97.91.188.153]] ([[User talk:97.91.188.153|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/97.91.188.153|contribs]]) 17:43, 30 June 2016 (UTC)&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/small&gt;<br /> ::The alternative explanation is that Omar Mateen was a crank/fantasist/mentally ill who proclaimed an Islamic motive after reading a few websites. As others have pointed out, if Mateen had claimed to be Napoleon, the Orlando shooting would not be described as the work of the French Empire. Motive is for the investigators to determine. It's also worrying that this is being hyped up on Breitbart, which is disrupting the normal editing process.--'''''[[User:ianmacm|&lt;span style=&quot;background:#88b;color:#cff;font-variant:small-caps&quot;&gt;♦Ian&lt;span style=&quot;background:#99c&quot;&gt;Ma&lt;span style=&quot;background:#aad&quot;&gt;c&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;M♦&lt;/span&gt;]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:ianmacm|(talk to me)]]&lt;/sup&gt;''''' 17:57, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::But, he didn't, Blanch. Stop propagandizing. &lt;!-- Template:Unsigned IP --&gt;&lt;small class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—&amp;nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/206.190.75.9|206.190.75.9]] ([[User talk:206.190.75.9|talk]]) 19:07, 30 June 2016 (UTC)&lt;/small&gt; &lt;!--Autosigned by SineBot--&gt;<br /> :::Well, if he claimed he were Napoleon and then France took credit for it we'd probably describe it as the work of France, don't you think? ISIL, an Islamic terrorist group, claims responsibility, do they not?--[[Special:Contributions/2607:EA00:107:2401:A13E:8174:2794:B667|2607:EA00:107:2401:A13E:8174:2794:B667]] ([[User talk:2607:EA00:107:2401:A13E:8174:2794:B667|talk]]) 20:23, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::The [[Charleston church shooting]] is currently in the category ''White supremacy in the United States'' despite the perpetrator having had no formal links to white supremacist groups. The motive was determined via consulting his manifesto and circumstantial evidence about which websites he had visited. The article itself features statements that cast doubt over the white supremacist element of the attack -- ''&quot;I don't think the church was his primary target because he told us he was going for the school. But I think he couldn't get into the school because of the security ... so I think he just settled for the church.&quot;'' Mateen's manifesto was transmitted via phone calls and the transcript features numerous mentions of Islamism and ideas frequently expressed by groups that are clearly Islamist. If we're going to cast aspersions over one manifesto, then it would only seem unbiased to call the motive on the other attack suspect, too. In fact, this would require every manifesto to be treated, as you say, like a product of mental illness of no relevance to the motive for the attack. --[[User:Toomanyaccountsargh|Toomanyaccountsargh]] ([[User talk:Toomanyaccountsargh|talk]]) 19:11, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::We are NOT going to have another content discussion about this here, pointlessly redundant with the open RfC. This is a thread about process, which is independent of any content questions. The listing is disputed and, as such, should stay out until consensus is reached to include it. Per [[WP:ONUS]], ''&quot;The onus to achieve consensus for inclusion is on those seeking to include disputed content.&quot;'' &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#AAA;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 21:18, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Semi-protected edit request on 30 June 2016 ==<br /> <br /> {{edit semi-protected|List of Islamist terrorist attacks|answered=yes}}<br /> &lt;!-- State UNAMBIGUOUSLY your suggested changes. Other editors need to know what to add or remove. Blank edit requests will be declined. --&gt;<br /> <br /> I would like to rightfully restore the Orlando and Turkey terror attacks to the list as they have been clearly demarcated as acts of Islamic terror.<br /> <br /> &lt;!-- Write your request ABOVE this line and do not remove the tildes below. --&gt;<br /> [[User:Jrcoyne99|Jrcoyne99]] ([[User talk:Jrcoyne99|talk]]) 19:39, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> :You may wish to participate in the above RfC. [[User:BethNaught|BethNaught]] ([[User talk:BethNaught|talk]]) 19:41, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> <br /> wankers arguing semantics. it's a duck. call it a duck. I mean that literally. Add the Orlando Nightclub attack to the page &quot;list of ducks&quot;<br /> <br /> :{{not done}} - You may wish to participate in the above RfC. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#AAA;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 21:24, 30 June 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Protected edit request on 30 June 2016 a ==<br /> <br /> {{edit fully-protected|List of Islamist terrorist attacks|answered=yes}}<br /> &lt;!-- State UNAMBIGUOUSLY your suggested changes. Other editors need to know what to add or remove. Blank edit requests will be declined. --&gt;<br /> Where is the list of Orlando and other attacks against US ? <br /> <br /> &lt;!-- Write your request ABOVE this line and do not remove the tildes below. --&gt;<br /> [[Special:Contributions/92.26.52.164|92.26.52.164]] ([[User talk:92.26.52.164|talk]]) 09:26, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :Please refer to [[Wikipedia:Edit requests]] for how to submit an edit request (they are not for asking a question). As for Orlando, there is an open RfC about that above. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#AAA;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 09:31, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Protected edit request on 30 June 2016 b==<br /> <br /> {{edit fully-protected|List of Islamist terrorist attacks|answered=yes}}<br /> &lt;!-- State UNAMBIGUOUSLY your suggested changes. Other editors need to know what to add or remove. Blank edit requests will be declined. --&gt;<br /> <br /> Two recent attacks appear to be missing:<br /> <br /> 12 June 2016 Orlando Nightclub Shooting.<br /> <br /> 28 June 2016 Istanbul Airport Attack.<br /> <br /> I'm happy to generate summary lines similar to others in the attack list. Thanks!<br /> <br /> &lt;!-- Write your request ABOVE this line and do not remove the tildes below. --&gt;<br /> [[User:Snowman1776|Snowman1776]] ([[User talk:Snowman1776|talk]]) 16:50, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> :{{Not done}} - Please read the rest of this page.- [[user: MrX|Mr]][[user talk:MrX|X]] 16:54, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> :: Too involved. Don't close requests. --[[User:DHeyward|DHeyward]] ([[User talk:DHeyward|talk]]) 17:22, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::The more I see of this page, the more it seems that the &quot;List of... &quot; format is a disaster waiting to happen. The motive for some of the attacks is not as easy to pin down as the mainstream media or armchair experts on Islamic radicalism seem to think. As I've also said, there is a risk of a [[false dilemma]] when an attack may have had a range of different motives.--'''''[[User:ianmacm|&lt;span style=&quot;background:#88b;color:#cff;font-variant:small-caps&quot;&gt;♦Ian&lt;span style=&quot;background:#99c&quot;&gt;Ma&lt;span style=&quot;background:#aad&quot;&gt;c&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;M♦&lt;/span&gt;]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:ianmacm|(talk to me)]]&lt;/sup&gt;''''' 17:27, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::: The page is fully protected due to a content dispute largely brought on by a breitbart article. The request is asking to continue that dispute. There's no reason an involved person cannot answer. Heck, no sources were provided either. [[User:EvergreenFir|'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:#8b00ff;&quot;&gt;Eve&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#6528c2;&quot;&gt;rgr&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#3f5184;&quot;&gt;een&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#197947;&quot;&gt;Fir&lt;/span&gt;''']] [[User talk:EvergreenFir|(talk)]] &lt;small&gt;Please &amp;#123;&amp;#123;[[Template:re|re]]&amp;#125;&amp;#125;&lt;/small&gt; 17:38, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::: {{re|ianmacm}} Perhaps but another problem is the difference between &quot;the&quot; motive and &quot;a&quot; motive. No one seems to doubt that this was violence against LGBT people but there is much less evidence of that connection. Nevertheless, both islamic terrorism and anti-LGBT can be a motive and we are not limited to a single list. Islamic terrorists execute gay people routinely so the lists can intersect. Why ignore all the sources that say it was Islamist terrorism? The Boston bombing was at least as complicated. --[[User:DHeyward|DHeyward]] ([[User talk:DHeyward|talk]]) 17:47, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::::The regular Wikipedia editors are agreed that mass shootings, bombings etc may have various motives. This page has degenerated into a mess because it sees things in black and white rather than shades of grey. As for the [[2016 Istanbul Atatürk Airport attack]], the Turkish government has blamed ISIL but there is as ever scope for debate.--'''''[[User:ianmacm|&lt;span style=&quot;background:#88b;color:#cff;font-variant:small-caps&quot;&gt;♦Ian&lt;span style=&quot;background:#99c&quot;&gt;Ma&lt;span style=&quot;background:#aad&quot;&gt;c&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;M♦&lt;/span&gt;]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:ianmacm|(talk to me)]]&lt;/sup&gt;''''' 17:58, 1 July 2016 (UTC) <br /> :::Anyone can close requests. Your demand is declined.- [[user: MrX|Mr]][[user talk:MrX|X]] 17:51, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> :Ongoing RFC above. Please join there. [[User:EvergreenFir|'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:#8b00ff;&quot;&gt;Eve&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#6528c2;&quot;&gt;rgr&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#3f5184;&quot;&gt;een&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#197947;&quot;&gt;Fir&lt;/span&gt;''']] [[User talk:EvergreenFir|(talk)]] &lt;small&gt;Please &amp;#123;&amp;#123;[[Template:re|re]]&amp;#125;&amp;#125;&lt;/small&gt; 17:35, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::The RfC only concerns Orlando. Can we get some views on Turkey? -- [[user:zzuuzz|zzuuzz]] &lt;sup&gt;[[user_talk:zzuuzz|(talk)]]&lt;/sup&gt; 17:40, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::: Currently discussed at [[#June 28 Ataturk airport bombing]] [[User:EvergreenFir|'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:#8b00ff;&quot;&gt;Eve&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#6528c2;&quot;&gt;rgr&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#3f5184;&quot;&gt;een&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#197947;&quot;&gt;Fir&lt;/span&gt;''']] [[User talk:EvergreenFir|(talk)]] &lt;small&gt;Please &amp;#123;&amp;#123;[[Template:re|re]]&amp;#125;&amp;#125;&lt;/small&gt; 17:45, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> :::I'm pretty much through with the RfC about Orlando because it has been [[WP:MEAT|meatpuppeted]] by Breitbart. The main concern now is whether this page has a viable format due to the difficulty in extracting a [[Boolean algebra|Boolean]] yes/no answer for the motive.--'''''[[User:ianmacm|&lt;span style=&quot;background:#88b;color:#cff;font-variant:small-caps&quot;&gt;♦Ian&lt;span style=&quot;background:#99c&quot;&gt;Ma&lt;span style=&quot;background:#aad&quot;&gt;c&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;M♦&lt;/span&gt;]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:ianmacm|(talk to me)]]&lt;/sup&gt;''''' 17:42, 1 July 2016 (UTC)<br /> ::::I disagree. I think the RFC is still valid. It doesn't matter how people noticed this issue. The RFC header itself advises that if you came here as a result of a message off wiki, please adhere to our guidelines. It goes on to say &quot;However, you are invited to participate and your opinion is welcome.&quot; If the users you claim were brought here as a result of reading a Breitbart article, then their opinions are as valid as yours, provided they adhere to our guidelines. If you believe the result should not be valid, please seek consensus to change the RFC process. That it is not going the way you wish is not a reason to try to derail the result. [[User:Mr Ernie|Mr Ernie]] ([[User talk:Mr Ernie|talk]]) 19:12, 1 July 2016 (UTC)</div> Battlefront228 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Plainfield_Central_High_School&diff=630882248 Plainfield Central High School 2014-10-24T03:09:30Z <p>Battlefront228: /* Football */</p> <hr /> <div>{{Cleanup|date=November 2009}}<br /> {{Infobox Secondary school<br /> | name = Plainfield High School - Central Campus<br /> | logo = [[Image:Plainfield High School Central Campus.JPG|200px|thumb|right|The new Plainfield High School Central Campus]]<br /> | principal = Robert Smith<br /> | established = 1959<br /> | type = Public secondary<br /> | grades = 9–12<br /> | city = 24120 W. Fort Beggs Dr.&lt;br&gt;[[Plainfield, Illinois|Plainfield]]<br /> | state = [[Illinois]]<br /> | country = [[United States|USA]]<br /> | enrollment = 2,174 (2010-2011) &lt;ref&gt;http://www.psd202.org/Departments/Trans/2011_ATTENDANCE_ZONE_QA.pdf&lt;/ref&gt;<br /> | faculty =<br /> | campus = [[Suburban]]<br /> | mascot = [[Wildcat]]<br /> | colors = Forest Green, White<br /> {{color box|#213D30}} {{color box|white}}<br /> | website = [http://psd202.org/PHS/ psd202.org/PHS]<br /> | picture =&lt;!-- Deleted image removed: [[Image:Plainfieldcentral.jpg|250px]] --&gt;<br /> }}<br /> '''Plainfield High School - Central Campus''', or '''PHS-CC''', is a four-year [[Public school (government funded)|public]] [[high school]] in [[Plainfield, Illinois]], a southwest suburb of [[Chicago]], [[Illinois]], in the [[United States]]. It is part of [[Plainfield Community Consolidated School District 202]], which also includes three other high schools: [[Plainfield South High School]], [[Plainfield North High School]] and [[Plainfield East High School]].<br /> <br /> ==Campus history==<br /> <br /> [[Image:PHSCC Sign.JPG|200px|thumb|right|PHSCC Welcome Sign]]<br /> <br /> The original building was destroyed by one of the worst tornadoes in Illinois history.<br /> The [[Plainfield Tornado]], which was rated an [[F5 tornado|F5]], struck the town on August 28, 1990, one day before classes were scheduled to begin.<br /> Three faculty and staff members lost their lives.<br /> Had school been in session, casualties could have been even more grave, as the tornado hit the school directly.<br /> In the middle of the 1992–1993 school year students moved into the new PHS building.<br /> At the time, it was one of the most technically advanced high schools in the state of Illinois, complete with its own observatory.<br /> <br /> In 1998, the school added a &quot;Freshman Center&quot; with its own [[gym]]nasium and [[cafeteria]].<br /> The new freshman center has three floors and is connected to the main building by an enclosed [[skyway|catwalk]]. In the 2008-2009 school year, the freshman cafeteria was changed to the senior cafe. Then was changed back to the freshman cafeteria in the 2012-2013 school year.<br /> <br /> In 2005, the school constructed a new snack building and restrooms on the south end of the football–track [[stadium]].<br /> In 2007, a new home [[grandstand]] was constructed, replacing the visitors' seating on the west side of the football field, and the former home grandstand was converted into visitor seating.<br /> The new home grandstand was built using only steel, contrasting with the former home seating which was constructed of [[brick]] and [[concrete]].<br /> The grandstand opening had been planned for the pre-season 'Green and White Night' event, but construction set-backs led to its opening about one month late.<br /> <br /> With the addition of a larger home grandstand, [[shot put]] and [[discus]] fields were relocated further west, behind the new grandstand.<br /> <br /> Also in 2007, the faculty installed over 300 [[high-resolution]] [[wireless network|wireless]] [[camera]]s to monitor the campus.<br /> New computer security measures were implemented which [[Content-control software|block]] some [[internet]] [[proxy server]]s, game-related sites, and other sites that the school district felt distracted their students from the educational process (like Wikipedia).<br /> The school replaced all its computers and monitors with [[Dell]] [[personal computers|computers]] with [[LCD screen]]s.<br /> In the 2008-2009 school year, classroom projectors that could display what was on the current teacher's computer were installed.<br /> <br /> On June 9, 2008, [[severe weather]] resulted in damage to the tennis court fences and school roof.<br /> There were no confirmed reports of a tornado.<br /> <br /> ==Activities==<br /> <br /> ===Athletics===<br /> Plainfield Central competes in the [[Southwest Prairie Conference]] and [[Illinois High School Association]].<br /> The school has teams for both boys and girls for most available sports, including golf, bowling, basketball, volleyball, soccer, swimming, tennis, track, and cross-country.<br /> A few sports have only teams for girls, including badminton, softball, cheerleading, and poms.<br /> Another short list has only teams for boys: baseball, football, wrestling, and hockey.<br /> <br /> Despite being able to trace its existence back to 1891, Plainfield Central has never won a Team Illinois State Championship.<br /> <br /> ====Hall of Fame====<br /> In the spring of 1998, the high school established its athletic hall of fame to honor athletes, coaches, boosters, and fans who have made significant contributions to the athletic programs. The first class was inducted in 1999.<br /> <br /> {| class=&quot;wikitable&quot; cellpadding=&quot;5&quot; style=&quot;width:95%; margin:auto;&quot;<br /> |-<br /> ! style=&quot;width:10%;&quot;| Year<br /> ! style=&quot;width:45%;&quot;| Inductee<br /> ! style=&quot;width:45%;&quot;| Contribution<br /> |-<br /> | rowspan=&quot;10&quot; style=&quot;text-align:center;&quot;| '''1999''' || Tom Baker || Coach<br /> |-<br /> | Kathy Kazmar || Coach<br /> |-<br /> | Karen Roppa || Coach<br /> |-<br /> | Clyde Avery || Athlete<br /> |-<br /> | [[Scott Davis (American football)|Scott Davis]] || Athlete<br /> |-<br /> | [[John Ivlow]] || Athlete<br /> |-<br /> | Mike Miller || Athlete<br /> |-<br /> | Dave Needham || Athlete<br /> |-<br /> | Carol Markwell || Volunteer<br /> |-<br /> | 1937 Football Team<br /> |-<br /> | rowspan=&quot;4&quot; style=&quot;text-align:center;&quot;| '''2000''' || Kathy Cartwright || Coach<br /> |-<br /> | Chuck Harris || Administration<br /> |-<br /> | Ben Bates || Athlete<br /> |-<br /> | Laurie Watters || Athlete<br /> |-<br /> | rowspan=&quot;2&quot; style=&quot;text-align:center;&quot;| '''2001''' || Chris Priest || Athlete<br /> |-<br /> | Jenny (Larson) Smeets || Athlete<br /> |-<br /> | style=&quot;text-align:center;&quot;| '''2002''' || Carol Bragg || Athlete<br /> |-<br /> | style=&quot;text-align:center;&quot;| '''2003''' || Michael Zbacnik || Coach<br /> |-<br /> | rowspan=&quot;3&quot; style=&quot;text-align:center;&quot;| '''2004''' || Gene Fassiotto || Fan/Booster<br /> |-<br /> | Don Martin || Coach<br /> |-<br /> | Laura Nier || Athlete<br /> |-<br /> | style=&quot;text-align:center;&quot;| '''2005''' || 1982 Girls Volleyball Team<br /> |-<br /> | rowspan=&quot;2&quot; style=&quot;text-align:center;&quot;| '''2006''' || [[Nate Fox]] || Athlete<br /> |-<br /> | Cody Salter || Athlete<br /> |-<br /> | rowspan=&quot;5&quot; style=&quot;text-align:center;&quot;| '''2007''' || Steve Riederer || Coach<br /> |-<br /> | Dave Cassetto || Athlete<br /> |-<br /> | Teresa Coccaro-Keniley || Athlete<br /> |-<br /> | Chris Traversa || Athlete<br /> |-<br /> | 1953 Football Team ||<br /> |-<br /> | style=&quot;text-align:center;&quot;| '''2008''' || 1983 Softball Team<br /> |-<br /> | style=&quot;text-align:center;&quot;| '''2009''' || Dave Stephens || Coach<br /> |-<br /> | style=&quot;text-align:center;&quot;| '''2010''' || 2000 Football team<br /> |}<br /> <br /> ====Football====<br /> The Wildcats have experienced mixed results in football recently. Coached by 27-year coaching veteran John Jackson. In 2008, the Wildcats went 8-1, including a 7-0 record in the SPC. However, they were upset in the first round in the state playoffs. The Widcats had a rather disappointing 2009 campaign, going 4-5 and missing the playoffs by one game after losing the final contest of the season to the [[Minooka High School]] Indians. The decline continued in 2010, when the varsity team went 2-7 for the season. The team rebounded in 2011, finishing the campaign at 5-4, missing the state playoffs by one game after a disappointing week 9 loss to [[Romeoville High School]]. The Wildcats improved the next season, finishing the regular season at 6-3 and finally breaking the playoff dry spell. However, their first round game was at the state powerhouse [[Lincoln-Way East High School]] Griffins, and the Wildcats lost 47-22. This makes it 10 years since Plainfield Central has won an [[Illinois High School Association|IHSA]] State Playoff football game. Currently, Plainfield Central is 0-7, and has no chance of making the State playoffs.<br /> <br /> ===Choirs===<br /> Directed by Alanna Frederiksen since 2007, the Plainfield Central choir program includes:<br /> <br /> * Mixed Choir, an introductory level choir;<br /> * Treble Choir, an auditioned, intermediate women's choir;<br /> * Concert Choir, an auditioned, advanced mixed choir.<br /> * Co-curricular choirs<br /> ** Vocal Jazz performs at various concerts and activities. Membership is by audition to all students, regardless of their involvement in the music program.<br /> ** Madrigal Singers is open by audition to students in Concert Choir. It is considered the most advanced choir at PCHS. Group singers present the Madrigal Dinner in early December. The dinner includes of course a meal, the Madrigal Concert, and a few comical sketches all based around a Renaissance like atmosphere. The group also performs for other community groups throughout the holiday season.<br /> <br /> === Bands ===<br /> <br /> The Band Program is under the direction of Dan Valkema (Director of Bands).<br /> The marching program is constantly striving to return it its original competitive marching roots. The 2012 show is entitled The Hood, The Wood, and The Wolf (Originally entitled &quot;Red!&quot;) arranged by Leslie Gilreath. The 2012 marching band has competed at AA Stagg High School, where they placed 3rd in class AAA and the color guard was rewarded best in class. They also competed at Wheaton North High School where they placed 2nd in class AAA. In the near future, they will be competing at Prospect High School on September 29 and will be finishing the season at Downers Grove South High School on October 13. The marching band will also be performing at the annual Plainfield Homecoming Parade, and at the annual Plainfield Memorial Day Parade.<br /> <br /> 2012 Marching Band Show:<br /> * The Hood, The Wood, and the Wolf. The music of Mozart, Beethoven, Tchesnokoff, and Béla Bartók. Arranged by Leslie Gilreath.<br /> <br /> 2011 Marching Band Show:<br /> * Journey Into Darkness composed and arranged by Craig Fitzpatrick<br /> <br /> 2010 Marching Band Show:<br /> * &quot;Carmen&quot; arranged from the opera by Georges Bizet<br /> <br /> Past show performances have included:<br /> <br /> *The Planets, from the seven-movement orchestral suite by Gustav Holst (2009).<br /> *Africa: Ceremony, Song and Ritual (2008). The marching band competed at [[Lake Park High School]], [[Wheaton North High School]], [[Prospect High School (Illinois)|Prospect High School]], [[Downers Grove South High School]], and [[Illinois State University]] in [[Normal, IL]]. The Marching Band will also performed at the annual Plainfield Homecoming Parade. Their 2008 season concluded with the annual 'Sounds of the Stadium' performance.<br /> *The Wind and the Lion and Polovetsian Dances (no show title-2007) – The marching band competed at [[Lake Park High School]], [[Wheaton North High School]], [[Prospect High School (Illinois)|Prospect High School]], and [[University of Illinois]] Urbana-Champaign. The Marching Band also performed at the Holiday of Lights Parade in [[Joliet, Illinois]] (November 2007), the annual Plainfield Homecoming Parade, and the annual [[Plainfield, Illinois]] Memorial Day Parade. The program concluded its season with a performance at the [[Disneyland Resort]] in Southern California. The parade's selections included music by Paul Simon (&quot;You Can Call Me Al&quot;) and The Star Spangled Banner. No [[Drum Cadence]] was performed (for timing purposes) after a last minute decision by both the band director and drumline section leader.<br /> *The Music of Paul Simon (2006) – The marching band competed at [[Amos Alonzo Stagg High School]], [[Wheaton North High School]], and [[Prospect High School (Illinois)|Prospect High School]] with a non-competitive performance at [[Oswego High School (Illinois)|Oswego High School]] during the 2006-2007 Marching Season. The marching band also performed in the annual Plainfield Homecoming Parade and the annual [[Plainfield, Illinois]] Memorial day Parade. The Drumline Section was invited to perform at the [[Plainfield, Illinois]] St. Patrick's Day Parade.<br /> *Marching Through the Decades (2005) – The marching band competed at [[Amos Alonzo Stagg High School]] and [[Wheaton North High School]] with a non-competitive performance at [[Oswego High School (Illinois)|Oswego High School]] during the 2005-2006 Marching Season. The marching band also performed in the annual Plainfield Homecoming Parade and the annual [[Plainfield, Illinois]] Memorial Day Parade. The season concluded with a performance in 2006 at the [[Walt Disney World Resort]]. The parade's selections included &quot;Free Ride&quot;, &quot;When the Saints go Marching In&quot; (school fight song) and a drum cadence.<br /> * Concert Band<br /> <br /> The [[Concert Band]] is under the direction of Patrick Hoadley and Dan Valkema.<br /> <br /> * Symphonic Band<br /> <br /> The Symphonic Band is under the direction of Patrick Hoadley<br /> ** The Symphonic Band recently went to the [[Bands of America]] Music for All National Festival in January 2011 under the direction of Dan Valkema playing the following selections: &quot;Cityscape&quot; by [[Scott Boerma]], &quot;[[Enigma Variations]]&quot; (Variations I, II, III, IV, V, and VI) by [[Edward Elgar]], &quot;Second Prelude&quot; by [[George Gershwin]], &quot;Aurora Awakes&quot; by [[John Mackey (composer)|John Mackey]], and &quot;Dance of the Jesters&quot; from [[The Snow Maiden]] by [[Pyotr Ilyich Tchaikovsky]] tran. by Ray Cramer.<br /> <br /> * Wind Ensemble<br /> <br /> The Wind Ensemble is under the direction of Dan Valkema.<br /> ** The Wind Ensemble is a recent addition to the Band Program added by Dan Valkema in the 2011-2012 after much growth in the program.<br /> <br /> &quot;&quot;Co-Curricular Bands&quot;&quot;<br /> *Jazz Band<br /> *Jazz Ensemble 1<br /> *Jazz Ensemble 2 (only for the 2006-2007 school year)<br /> *[[Pep Band]] (ended in 2010 after the leave of former director Moulee Dutta, but returned in January of 2013)<br /> *Pit Orchestra<br /> <br /> Every year the Plainfield Band Program presents a festival for local bands called the Plainfield Invitational Concert Band Festival &quot;(PICBF)&quot;.<br /> <br /> ===Theater===<br /> <br /> Each year, students put on a play in the fall, and then a musical in the spring. Additionally, Plainfield Central is the only District 202 high school who attends the Illinois High School Theater Association's Theater Fest, which takes place every January.<br /> <br /> Fall plays performed in recent years include:<br /> * ''[[Up the Down Staircase]]'' (2004)<br /> *''[[Madwoman of Chaillot]]'' (January 2006, was delayed two months)<br /> *''[[M*A*S*H*]]'' (2006)<br /> * ''[[My Three Angels]]'' (2007)<br /> *''[[The Mousetrap]]'' (2008)<br /> *''[[I Remember Mama]]'' (2009)<br /> *''[[It's A Wonderful Life]]'' (2010)<br /> *''[[Alice's Adventures In Wonderland]]'' (2011)<br /> Spring musicals of recent years include:<br /> *''[[Bye Bye Birdie (musical)|Bye Bye Birdie]]'' (2005)<br /> *''[[Into the Woods]]'' (2006)<br /> *''[[Fiddler on the Roof]]'' (2007)<br /> *''[[Disney's Beauty and the Beast]]'' (2008)<br /> *''[[West Side Story (musical)|West Side Story]]'' (2009)<br /> *''[[My Fair Lady]]'' (2010)<br /> *''[[Thoroughly Modern Millie]]'' (2011)<br /> *''[[How To Succeed In Business Without Really Trying]]'' (2012)<br /> <br /> ===Clubs and organizations===<br /> *Bio Explorations<br /> *[[Book discussion club|Book Club]]<br /> *Drama Club<br /> *[[Entrepreneurs]]<br /> *Fall Play<br /> *[[Fellowship of Christian Athletes|FCA]]<br /> *Fielder (School Newspaper)<br /> *French Club<br /> *German Club<br /> *Green and White Review<br /> *Interact Club<br /> *[[International Thespian Society]]<br /> *[[Key Club]]<br /> *Math Club<br /> *Multi-Cultural Club<br /> *[[National Honor Society|NHS]]<br /> *Orchesis<br /> *[[Scholastic Bowl]]<br /> *Science Club<br /> *Spanish Club<br /> *[[Speech and Forensics]] <br /> *Spring Musical<br /> *[[Student Council]]<br /> *[[Tri-M]]<br /> *[[Yearbook]]<br /> *YPA (Young Politicians of America)<br /> <br /> ==References==<br /> {{reflist}}<br /> <br /> ==External links==<br /> * [http://www.psd202.org/phs Official website]<br /> * [http://www.plainfieldhockey.org Plainfield High School Hockey Association Website]<br /> <br /> {{coord missing|Illinois}}<br /> <br /> [[Category:Public high schools in Illinois]]<br /> [[Category:Plainfield, Illinois]]<br /> [[Category:Schools in Will County, Illinois]]</div> Battlefront228 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Battlefront228&diff=630882117 User talk:Battlefront228 2014-10-24T03:07:51Z <p>Battlefront228: /* Recent edits to Plainfield East High School */</p> <hr /> <div></div> Battlefront228 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Battlefront228&diff=630881995 User talk:Battlefront228 2014-10-24T03:06:32Z <p>Battlefront228: /* Provide citations */</p> <hr /> <div><br /> <br /> ==Recent edits to [[Plainfield East High School]]==<br /> [[Image:Information.svg|25px]] Hello, and thank you for your recent contributions. I appreciate the effort you made for our project, but unfortunately I had to undo your edits because I believe the article was better before you made that change. Feel free to contact me directly if you have any questions. Thank you! [[User:Jayakumar RG|Jayakumar RG]] ([[User talk:Jayakumar RG|talk]]) 04:00, 6 October 2014 (UTC)</div> Battlefront228 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Plainfield_Central_High_School&diff=628422385 Plainfield Central High School 2014-10-06T02:53:14Z <p>Battlefront228: /* Campus history */</p> <hr /> <div>{{Cleanup|date=November 2009}}<br /> {{Infobox Secondary school<br /> | name = Plainfield High School - Central Campus<br /> | logo = [[Image:Plainfield High School Central Campus.JPG|200px|thumb|right|The new Plainfield High School Central Campus]]<br /> | principal = Robert Smith<br /> | established = 1959<br /> | type = Public secondary<br /> | grades = 9–12<br /> | city = 24120 W. Fort Beggs Dr.&lt;br&gt;[[Plainfield, Illinois|Plainfield]]<br /> | state = [[Illinois]]<br /> | country = [[United States|USA]]<br /> | enrollment = 2,174 (2010-2011) &lt;ref&gt;http://www.psd202.org/Departments/Trans/2011_ATTENDANCE_ZONE_QA.pdf&lt;/ref&gt;<br /> | faculty =<br /> | campus = [[Suburban]]<br /> | mascot = [[Wildcat]]<br /> | colors = Forest Green, White<br /> {{color box|#213D30}} {{color box|white}}<br /> | website = [http://psd202.org/PHS/ psd202.org/PHS]<br /> | picture =&lt;!-- Deleted image removed: [[Image:Plainfieldcentral.jpg|250px]] --&gt;<br /> }}<br /> '''Plainfield High School - Central Campus''', or '''PHS-CC''', is a four-year [[Public school (government funded)|public]] [[high school]] in [[Plainfield, Illinois]], a southwest suburb of [[Chicago]], [[Illinois]], in the [[United States]]. It is part of [[Plainfield Community Consolidated School District 202]], which also includes three other high schools: [[Plainfield South High School]], [[Plainfield North High School]] and [[Plainfield East High School]].<br /> <br /> ==Campus history==<br /> <br /> [[Image:PHSCC Sign.JPG|200px|thumb|right|PHSCC Welcome Sign]]<br /> <br /> The original building was destroyed by one of the worst tornadoes in Illinois history.<br /> The [[Plainfield Tornado]], which was rated an [[F5 tornado|F5]], struck the town on August 28, 1990, one day before classes were scheduled to begin.<br /> Three faculty and staff members lost their lives.<br /> Had school been in session, casualties could have been even more grave, as the tornado hit the school directly.<br /> In the middle of the 1992–1993 school year students moved into the new PHS building.<br /> At the time, it was one of the most technically advanced high schools in the state of Illinois, complete with its own observatory.<br /> <br /> In 1998, the school added a &quot;Freshman Center&quot; with its own [[gym]]nasium and [[cafeteria]].<br /> The new freshman center has three floors and is connected to the main building by an enclosed [[skyway|catwalk]]. In the 2008-2009 school year, the freshman cafeteria was changed to the senior cafe. Then was changed back to the freshman cafeteria in the 2012-2013 school year.<br /> <br /> In 2005, the school constructed a new snack building and restrooms on the south end of the football–track [[stadium]].<br /> In 2007, a new home [[grandstand]] was constructed, replacing the visitors' seating on the west side of the football field, and the former home grandstand was converted into visitor seating.<br /> The new home grandstand was built using only steel, contrasting with the former home seating which was constructed of [[brick]] and [[concrete]].<br /> The grandstand opening had been planned for the pre-season 'Green and White Night' event, but construction set-backs led to its opening about one month late.<br /> <br /> With the addition of a larger home grandstand, [[shot put]] and [[discus]] fields were relocated further west, behind the new grandstand.<br /> <br /> Also in 2007, the faculty installed over 300 [[high-resolution]] [[wireless network|wireless]] [[camera]]s to monitor the campus.<br /> New computer security measures were implemented which [[Content-control software|block]] some [[internet]] [[proxy server]]s, game-related sites, and other sites that the school district felt distracted their students from the educational process (like Wikipedia).<br /> The school replaced all its computers and monitors with [[Dell]] [[personal computers|computers]] with [[LCD screen]]s.<br /> In the 2008-2009 school year, classroom projectors that could display what was on the current teacher's computer were installed.<br /> <br /> On June 9, 2008, [[severe weather]] resulted in damage to the tennis court fences and school roof.<br /> There were no confirmed reports of a tornado.<br /> <br /> It is important to note that, since Central is the &quot;original campus&quot;, it gets the most love of any PSD 202 school. They are constantly funded over peer schools. German programs at East and North were consolidated to Central despite Central's lower testing averages. They are responsible for some of the horrendous school colors in the district, as each other high school is required to have at least one of the &quot;original&quot; colors.<br /> <br /> ==Activities==<br /> <br /> ===Athletics===<br /> Plainfield Central competes in the [[Southwest Prairie Conference]] and [[Illinois High School Association]].<br /> The school has teams for both boys and girls for most available sports, including golf, bowling, basketball, volleyball, soccer, swimming, tennis, track, and cross-country.<br /> A few sports have only teams for girls, including badminton, softball, cheerleading, and poms.<br /> Another short list has only teams for boys: baseball, football, wrestling, and hockey.<br /> <br /> Despite being able to trace its existence back to 1891, Plainfield Central has never won a Team Illinois State Championship.<br /> <br /> ====Hall of Fame====<br /> In the spring of 1998, the high school established its athletic hall of fame to honor athletes, coaches, boosters, and fans who have made significant contributions to the athletic programs. The first class was inducted in 1999.<br /> <br /> {| class=&quot;wikitable&quot; cellpadding=&quot;5&quot; style=&quot;width:95%; margin:auto;&quot;<br /> |-<br /> ! style=&quot;width:10%;&quot;| Year<br /> ! style=&quot;width:45%;&quot;| Inductee<br /> ! style=&quot;width:45%;&quot;| Contribution<br /> |-<br /> | rowspan=&quot;10&quot; style=&quot;text-align:center;&quot;| '''1999''' || Tom Baker || Coach<br /> |-<br /> | Kathy Kazmar || Coach<br /> |-<br /> | Karen Roppa || Coach<br /> |-<br /> | Clyde Avery || Athlete<br /> |-<br /> | [[Scott Davis (American football)|Scott Davis]] || Athlete<br /> |-<br /> | [[John Ivlow]] || Athlete<br /> |-<br /> | Mike Miller || Athlete<br /> |-<br /> | Dave Needham || Athlete<br /> |-<br /> | Carol Markwell || Volunteer<br /> |-<br /> | 1937 Football Team<br /> |-<br /> | rowspan=&quot;4&quot; style=&quot;text-align:center;&quot;| '''2000''' || Kathy Cartwright || Coach<br /> |-<br /> | Chuck Harris || Administration<br /> |-<br /> | Ben Bates || Athlete<br /> |-<br /> | Laurie Watters || Athlete<br /> |-<br /> | rowspan=&quot;2&quot; style=&quot;text-align:center;&quot;| '''2001''' || Chris Priest || Athlete<br /> |-<br /> | Jenny (Larson) Smeets || Athlete<br /> |-<br /> | style=&quot;text-align:center;&quot;| '''2002''' || Carol Bragg || Athlete<br /> |-<br /> | style=&quot;text-align:center;&quot;| '''2003''' || Michael Zbacnik || Coach<br /> |-<br /> | rowspan=&quot;3&quot; style=&quot;text-align:center;&quot;| '''2004''' || Gene Fassiotto || Fan/Booster<br /> |-<br /> | Don Martin || Coach<br /> |-<br /> | Laura Nier || Athlete<br /> |-<br /> | style=&quot;text-align:center;&quot;| '''2005''' || 1982 Girls Volleyball Team<br /> |-<br /> | rowspan=&quot;2&quot; style=&quot;text-align:center;&quot;| '''2006''' || [[Nate Fox]] || Athlete<br /> |-<br /> | Cody Salter || Athlete<br /> |-<br /> | rowspan=&quot;5&quot; style=&quot;text-align:center;&quot;| '''2007''' || Steve Riederer || Coach<br /> |-<br /> | Dave Cassetto || Athlete<br /> |-<br /> | Teresa Coccaro-Keniley || Athlete<br /> |-<br /> | Chris Traversa || Athlete<br /> |-<br /> | 1953 Football Team ||<br /> |-<br /> | style=&quot;text-align:center;&quot;| '''2008''' || 1983 Softball Team<br /> |-<br /> | style=&quot;text-align:center;&quot;| '''2009''' || Dave Stephens || Coach<br /> |-<br /> | style=&quot;text-align:center;&quot;| '''2010''' || 2000 Football team<br /> |}<br /> <br /> ====Football====<br /> The Wildcats have experienced mixed results in football recently. Coached by 27-year coaching veteran John Jackson. In 2008, the Wildcats went 8-1, including a 7-0 record in the SPC. However, they were upset in the first round in the state playoffs. The Widcats had a rather disappointing 2009 campaign, going 4-5 and missing the playoffs by one game after losing the final contest of the season to the [[Minooka High School]] Indians. The decline continued in 2010, when the varsity team went 2-7 for the season. The team rebounded in 2011, finishing the campaign at 5-4, missing the state playoffs by one game after a disappointing week 9 loss to [[Romeoville High School]]. The Wildcats improved the next season, finishing the regular season at 6-3 and finally breaking the playoff dry spell. However, their first round game was at the state powerhouse [[Lincoln-Way East High School]] Griffins, and the Wildcats lost 47-22. This makes it 10 years since Plainfield Central has won an [[Illinois High School Association|IHSA]] State Playoff football game.<br /> <br /> ===Choirs===<br /> Directed by Alanna Frederiksen since 2007, the Plainfield Central choir program includes:<br /> <br /> * Mixed Choir, an introductory level choir;<br /> * Treble Choir, an auditioned, intermediate women's choir;<br /> * Concert Choir, an auditioned, advanced mixed choir.<br /> * Co-curricular choirs<br /> ** Vocal Jazz performs at various concerts and activities. Membership is by audition to all students, regardless of their involvement in the music program.<br /> ** Madrigal Singers is open by audition to students in Concert Choir. It is considered the most advanced choir at PCHS. Group singers present the Madrigal Dinner in early December. The dinner includes of course a meal, the Madrigal Concert, and a few comical sketches all based around a Renaissance like atmosphere. The group also performs for other community groups throughout the holiday season.<br /> <br /> === Bands ===<br /> <br /> The Band Program is under the direction of Dan Valkema (Director of Bands).<br /> The marching program is constantly striving to return it its original competitive marching roots. The 2012 show is entitled The Hood, The Wood, and The Wolf (Originally entitled &quot;Red!&quot;) arranged by Leslie Gilreath. The 2012 marching band has competed at AA Stagg High School, where they placed 3rd in class AAA and the color guard was rewarded best in class. They also competed at Wheaton North High School where they placed 2nd in class AAA. In the near future, they will be competing at Prospect High School on September 29 and will be finishing the season at Downers Grove South High School on October 13. The marching band will also be performing at the annual Plainfield Homecoming Parade, and at the annual Plainfield Memorial Day Parade.<br /> <br /> 2012 Marching Band Show:<br /> * The Hood, The Wood, and the Wolf. The music of Mozart, Beethoven, Tchesnokoff, and Béla Bartók. Arranged by Leslie Gilreath.<br /> <br /> 2011 Marching Band Show:<br /> * Journey Into Darkness composed and arranged by Craig Fitzpatrick<br /> <br /> 2010 Marching Band Show:<br /> * &quot;Carmen&quot; arranged from the opera by Georges Bizet<br /> <br /> Past show performances have included:<br /> <br /> *The Planets, from the seven-movement orchestral suite by Gustav Holst (2009).<br /> *Africa: Ceremony, Song and Ritual (2008). The marching band competed at [[Lake Park High School]], [[Wheaton North High School]], [[Prospect High School (Illinois)|Prospect High School]], [[Downers Grove South High School]], and [[Illinois State University]] in [[Normal, IL]]. The Marching Band will also performed at the annual Plainfield Homecoming Parade. Their 2008 season concluded with the annual 'Sounds of the Stadium' performance.<br /> *The Wind and the Lion and Polovetsian Dances (no show title-2007) – The marching band competed at [[Lake Park High School]], [[Wheaton North High School]], [[Prospect High School (Illinois)|Prospect High School]], and [[University of Illinois]] Urbana-Champaign. The Marching Band also performed at the Holiday of Lights Parade in [[Joliet, Illinois]] (November 2007), the annual Plainfield Homecoming Parade, and the annual [[Plainfield, Illinois]] Memorial Day Parade. The program concluded its season with a performance at the [[Disneyland Resort]] in Southern California. The parade's selections included music by Paul Simon (&quot;You Can Call Me Al&quot;) and The Star Spangled Banner. No [[Drum Cadence]] was performed (for timing purposes) after a last minute decision by both the band director and drumline section leader.<br /> *The Music of Paul Simon (2006) – The marching band competed at [[Amos Alonzo Stagg High School]], [[Wheaton North High School]], and [[Prospect High School (Illinois)|Prospect High School]] with a non-competitive performance at [[Oswego High School (Illinois)|Oswego High School]] during the 2006-2007 Marching Season. The marching band also performed in the annual Plainfield Homecoming Parade and the annual [[Plainfield, Illinois]] Memorial day Parade. The Drumline Section was invited to perform at the [[Plainfield, Illinois]] St. Patrick's Day Parade.<br /> *Marching Through the Decades (2005) – The marching band competed at [[Amos Alonzo Stagg High School]] and [[Wheaton North High School]] with a non-competitive performance at [[Oswego High School (Illinois)|Oswego High School]] during the 2005-2006 Marching Season. The marching band also performed in the annual Plainfield Homecoming Parade and the annual [[Plainfield, Illinois]] Memorial Day Parade. The season concluded with a performance in 2006 at the [[Walt Disney World Resort]]. The parade's selections included &quot;Free Ride&quot;, &quot;When the Saints go Marching In&quot; (school fight song) and a drum cadence.<br /> * Concert Band<br /> <br /> The [[Concert Band]] is under the direction of Patrick Hoadley and Dan Valkema.<br /> <br /> * Symphonic Band<br /> <br /> The Symphonic Band is under the direction of Patrick Hoadley<br /> ** The Symphonic Band recently went to the [[Bands of America]] Music for All National Festival in January 2011 under the direction of Dan Valkema playing the following selections: &quot;Cityscape&quot; by [[Scott Boerma]], &quot;[[Enigma Variations]]&quot; (Variations I, II, III, IV, V, and VI) by [[Edward Elgar]], &quot;Second Prelude&quot; by [[George Gershwin]], &quot;Aurora Awakes&quot; by [[John Mackey (composer)|John Mackey]], and &quot;Dance of the Jesters&quot; from [[The Snow Maiden]] by [[Pyotr Ilyich Tchaikovsky]] tran. by Ray Cramer.<br /> <br /> * Wind Ensemble<br /> <br /> The Wind Ensemble is under the direction of Dan Valkema.<br /> ** The Wind Ensemble is a recent addition to the Band Program added by Dan Valkema in the 2011-2012 after much growth in the program.<br /> <br /> &quot;&quot;Co-Curricular Bands&quot;&quot;<br /> *Jazz Band<br /> *Jazz Ensemble 1<br /> *Jazz Ensemble 2 (only for the 2006-2007 school year)<br /> *[[Pep Band]] (ended in 2010 after the leave of former director Moulee Dutta, but returned in January of 2013)<br /> *Pit Orchestra<br /> <br /> Every year the Plainfield Band Program presents a festival for local bands called the Plainfield Invitational Concert Band Festival &quot;(PICBF)&quot;.<br /> <br /> ===Theater===<br /> <br /> Each year, students put on a play in the fall, and then a musical in the spring. Additionally, Plainfield Central is the only District 202 high school who attends the Illinois High School Theater Association's Theater Fest, which takes place every January.<br /> <br /> Fall plays performed in recent years include:<br /> * ''[[Up the Down Staircase]]'' (2004)<br /> *''[[Madwoman of Chaillot]]'' (January 2006, was delayed two months)<br /> *''[[M*A*S*H*]]'' (2006)<br /> * ''[[My Three Angels]]'' (2007)<br /> *''[[The Mousetrap]]'' (2008)<br /> *''[[I Remember Mama]]'' (2009)<br /> *''[[It's A Wonderful Life]]'' (2010)<br /> *''[[Alice's Adventures In Wonderland]]'' (2011)<br /> Spring musicals of recent years include:<br /> *''[[Bye Bye Birdie (musical)|Bye Bye Birdie]]'' (2005)<br /> *''[[Into the Woods]]'' (2006)<br /> *''[[Fiddler on the Roof]]'' (2007)<br /> *''[[Disney's Beauty and the Beast]]'' (2008)<br /> *''[[West Side Story (musical)|West Side Story]]'' (2009)<br /> *''[[My Fair Lady]]'' (2010)<br /> *''[[Thoroughly Modern Millie]]'' (2011)<br /> *''[[How To Succeed In Business Without Really Trying]]'' (2012)<br /> <br /> ===Clubs and organizations===<br /> *Bio Explorations<br /> *[[Book discussion club|Book Club]]<br /> *Drama Club<br /> *[[Entrepreneurs]]<br /> *Fall Play<br /> *[[Fellowship of Christian Athletes|FCA]]<br /> *Fielder (School Newspaper)<br /> *French Club<br /> *German Club<br /> *Green and White Review<br /> *Interact Club<br /> *[[International Thespian Society]]<br /> *[[Key Club]]<br /> *Math Club<br /> *Multi-Cultural Club<br /> *[[National Honor Society|NHS]]<br /> *Orchesis<br /> *[[Scholastic Bowl]]<br /> *Science Club<br /> *Spanish Club<br /> *[[Speech and Forensics]] <br /> *Spring Musical<br /> *[[Student Council]]<br /> *[[Tri-M]]<br /> *[[Yearbook]]<br /> *YPA (Young Politicians of America)<br /> <br /> ==References==<br /> {{reflist}}<br /> <br /> ==External links==<br /> * [http://www.psd202.org/phs Official website]<br /> * [http://www.plainfieldhockey.org Plainfield High School Hockey Association Website]<br /> <br /> {{coord missing|Illinois}}<br /> <br /> [[Category:Public high schools in Illinois]]<br /> [[Category:Plainfield, Illinois]]<br /> [[Category:Schools in Will County, Illinois]]</div> Battlefront228 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Plainfield_East_High_School&diff=628421918 Plainfield East High School 2014-10-06T02:47:08Z <p>Battlefront228: /* History */</p> <hr /> <div>{{Infobox Secondary school<br /> | name = Plainfield East High School<br /> | logo = <br /> | principal = Anthony Manville<br /> | established = 2008<br /> | type = Public secondary<br /> | grades = 9–12<br /> | address = 12001 S. Naperville Road Plainfield, IL 60585 <br /> | city = [[Plainfield, Illinois|Plainfield]]<br /> | state = [[Illinois]]<br /> | country = [[United States|USA]]<br /> | enrollment = 1,907 (2011-2012) &lt;ref&gt;http://www.psd202.org/Documents/ReportCards/PEHS.pdf&lt;/ref&gt;{{Dead link|date=May 2014}}<br /> | faculty = <br /> | campus = [[Suburban]] <br /> | mascot = [[Bengal tiger|Bengals]]<br /> | colors = Orange and Forest Green<br /> | website = http://psd202.org/pehs/<br /> | picture = [[Image:PEHS-front.JPG|250px]]<br /> }}<br /> <br /> '''Plainfield East High School''', or '''PEHS''' is a four-year public [[high school]] located in [[Plainfield, Illinois]], a southwest suburb of [[Chicago, Illinois]], in the [[United States]]. It is part of the [[Plainfield Community Consolidated School District 202]], which also includes three other high schools located within 5 miles of RR Donnelley: [[Plainfield Central High School]], [[Plainfield South High School]], and [[Plainfield North High School]].<br /> <br /> ==History==<br /> <br /> The fourth high school in the [[Plainfield Community Consolidated School District 202]] opened its doors for the very first time for the 2008-2009 academic school year on August 21, 2008.&lt;ref&gt;[http://pehs.psd202.org/pages/Plainfield_East_High_School/About_Us/About_PEHS &quot;About PEHS&quot;]&lt;/ref&gt; The school's first year only contained freshmen and sophomores. Each year, the school added another grade level. By the 2010-2011 school year, the school was finally operating with all four years (freshmen-seniors).<br /> <br /> The building's layout is strictly based on the blueprints of those used for the construction of both [[Plainfield South High School]] and [[Plainfield North High School]]. While the building's layout is similar, sections of the property are slightly different in design and location.<br /> <br /> It is important to note that in many ways, Plainfield East is superior to its fellow PSD 202 schools. For one thing, the Plainfield East Football Team is unrivaled. Also, upon comparison, the average ACT score is higher at East than any other high school in the district. The Marching Bengals deserve a special mention for their dedication to excellance. <br /> <br /> To conclude:<br /> I believe. <br /> I believe that. <br /> I believe that we. <br /> I believe that we can. <br /> I believe that we can win. <br /> I believe that we can win, I believe that we can win, I believe that we can win.<br /> <br /> ==References==<br /> {{reflist}}<br /> <br /> ==External links==<br /> * {{official website|http://learningcommunity202.org/PEHS/}}<br /> * [http://www.plainfieldhockey.org Plainfield High School Hockey Association Website]<br /> <br /> {{coord missing|Illinois}}<br /> <br /> [[Category:Public high schools in Illinois]]<br /> [[Category:Plainfield, Illinois]]<br /> [[Category:Schools in Will County, Illinois]]<br /> <br /> <br /> {{Illinois-school-stub}}</div> Battlefront228 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Plainfield_East_High_School&diff=628421864 Plainfield East High School 2014-10-06T02:46:22Z <p>Battlefront228: /* History */</p> <hr /> <div>{{Infobox Secondary school<br /> | name = Plainfield East High School<br /> | logo = <br /> | principal = Anthony Manville<br /> | established = 2008<br /> | type = Public secondary<br /> | grades = 9–12<br /> | address = 12001 S. Naperville Road Plainfield, IL 60585 <br /> | city = [[Plainfield, Illinois|Plainfield]]<br /> | state = [[Illinois]]<br /> | country = [[United States|USA]]<br /> | enrollment = 1,907 (2011-2012) &lt;ref&gt;http://www.psd202.org/Documents/ReportCards/PEHS.pdf&lt;/ref&gt;{{Dead link|date=May 2014}}<br /> | faculty = <br /> | campus = [[Suburban]] <br /> | mascot = [[Bengal tiger|Bengals]]<br /> | colors = Orange and Forest Green<br /> | website = http://psd202.org/pehs/<br /> | picture = [[Image:PEHS-front.JPG|250px]]<br /> }}<br /> <br /> '''Plainfield East High School''', or '''PEHS''' is a four-year public [[high school]] located in [[Plainfield, Illinois]], a southwest suburb of [[Chicago, Illinois]], in the [[United States]]. It is part of the [[Plainfield Community Consolidated School District 202]], which also includes three other high schools located within 5 miles of RR Donnelley: [[Plainfield Central High School]], [[Plainfield South High School]], and [[Plainfield North High School]].<br /> <br /> ==History==<br /> <br /> The fourth high school in the [[Plainfield Community Consolidated School District 202]] opened its doors for the very first time for the 2008-2009 academic school year on August 21, 2008.&lt;ref&gt;[http://pehs.psd202.org/pages/Plainfield_East_High_School/About_Us/About_PEHS &quot;About PEHS&quot;]&lt;/ref&gt; The school's first year only contained freshmen and sophomores. Each year, the school added another grade level. By the 2010-2011 school year, the school was finally operating with all four years (freshmen-seniors).<br /> <br /> The building's layout is strictly based on the blueprints of those used for the construction of both [[Plainfield South High School]] and [[Plainfield North High School]]. While the building's layout is similar, sections of the property are slightly different in design and location.<br /> <br /> It is important to note that in many ways, Plainfield East is superior to its fellow PSD 202 schools. For one thing, the Plainfield East Football Team is unrivaled. Also, upon comparing test scores, the average ACT score is higher at East than any other high school in the district. The Marching Bengals deserve a special mention for their deception to excellance. <br /> <br /> To conclude:<br /> I believe. <br /> I believe that. <br /> I believe that we. <br /> I believe that we can. <br /> I believe that we can win. <br /> I believe that we can win, I believe that we can win, I believe that we can win.<br /> <br /> ==References==<br /> {{reflist}}<br /> <br /> ==External links==<br /> * {{official website|http://learningcommunity202.org/PEHS/}}<br /> * [http://www.plainfieldhockey.org Plainfield High School Hockey Association Website]<br /> <br /> {{coord missing|Illinois}}<br /> <br /> [[Category:Public high schools in Illinois]]<br /> [[Category:Plainfield, Illinois]]<br /> [[Category:Schools in Will County, Illinois]]<br /> <br /> <br /> {{Illinois-school-stub}}</div> Battlefront228 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Plainfield_East_High_School&diff=628421821 Plainfield East High School 2014-10-06T02:45:51Z <p>Battlefront228: /* History */</p> <hr /> <div>{{Infobox Secondary school<br /> | name = Plainfield East High School<br /> | logo = <br /> | principal = Anthony Manville<br /> | established = 2008<br /> | type = Public secondary<br /> | grades = 9–12<br /> | address = 12001 S. Naperville Road Plainfield, IL 60585 <br /> | city = [[Plainfield, Illinois|Plainfield]]<br /> | state = [[Illinois]]<br /> | country = [[United States|USA]]<br /> | enrollment = 1,907 (2011-2012) &lt;ref&gt;http://www.psd202.org/Documents/ReportCards/PEHS.pdf&lt;/ref&gt;{{Dead link|date=May 2014}}<br /> | faculty = <br /> | campus = [[Suburban]] <br /> | mascot = [[Bengal tiger|Bengals]]<br /> | colors = Orange and Forest Green<br /> | website = http://psd202.org/pehs/<br /> | picture = [[Image:PEHS-front.JPG|250px]]<br /> }}<br /> <br /> '''Plainfield East High School''', or '''PEHS''' is a four-year public [[high school]] located in [[Plainfield, Illinois]], a southwest suburb of [[Chicago, Illinois]], in the [[United States]]. It is part of the [[Plainfield Community Consolidated School District 202]], which also includes three other high schools located within 5 miles of RR Donnelley: [[Plainfield Central High School]], [[Plainfield South High School]], and [[Plainfield North High School]].<br /> <br /> ==History==<br /> <br /> The fourth high school in the [[Plainfield Community Consolidated School District 202]] opened its doors for the very first time for the 2008-2009 academic school year on August 21, 2008.&lt;ref&gt;[http://pehs.psd202.org/pages/Plainfield_East_High_School/About_Us/About_PEHS &quot;About PEHS&quot;]&lt;/ref&gt; The school's first year only contained freshmen and sophomores. Each year, the school added another grade level. By the 2010-2011 school year, the school was finally operating with all four years (freshmen-seniors).<br /> <br /> The building's layout is strictly based on the blueprints of those used for the construction of both [[Plainfield South High School]] and [[Plainfield North High School]]. While the building's layout is similar, sections of the property are slightly different in design and location.<br /> <br /> It is important to note that in many ways, Plainfield East is superior to its fellow PSD 202 schools. For one thing, the Plainfield East Football Team is unrivaled. Also, upon comparing test scores, the average ACT score is higher at East than any other high school in the district. The Marching Bengals deserve a special mention for their deception to excellance. <br /> <br /> To conclude:<br /> I believe<br /> I believe that<br /> I believe that we<br /> I believe that we can <br /> I believe that we can win<br /> I believe that we can win, I believe that we can win, I believe that we can win.<br /> <br /> ==References==<br /> {{reflist}}<br /> <br /> ==External links==<br /> * {{official website|http://learningcommunity202.org/PEHS/}}<br /> * [http://www.plainfieldhockey.org Plainfield High School Hockey Association Website]<br /> <br /> {{coord missing|Illinois}}<br /> <br /> [[Category:Public high schools in Illinois]]<br /> [[Category:Plainfield, Illinois]]<br /> [[Category:Schools in Will County, Illinois]]<br /> <br /> <br /> {{Illinois-school-stub}}</div> Battlefront228